First Class: Very busy service but not declassified?

[thw6]

Apologies not sure what topic this comes under. How busy does a train usually have to get before 1st class gets declassified? I got on from Paignton after Torbay airshow on a cross country and BTP were saying use all available doors but the train manager wasn’t having anyone in first class.

This remained empty apart from a disabled couple and a young family who were made to pay an upgrade fee for a 10-15 min journey leaving the rest of the carriages dangerously crowded.

Cross Country tweeted me saying declassified was at managers discretion. Surely common sense would say declassify it until Newton Abbot maybe Dawlish/Exeter and then ask those who didn’t have 1st class to move once there was more available space?

 

[AlterEgo]

Declassification is due to the guard’s discretion so there is no single answer. How long is a piece of string?

 

[Bensonby]

“Dangerously overcrowded” along with “animals aren’t allowed to be carried like this” annoys me: no one forces people to get on a particular train!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

“Dangerously overcrowded” along with “animals aren’t allowed to be carried like this” annoys me: no one forces people to get on a particular train!

...so like 'if your late one more time you can look for another job' holds no sway then ?....

 

[Camden]

“Dangerously overcrowded” along with “animals aren’t allowed to be carried like this” annoys me: no one forces people to get on a particular train!

No one forced you to get annoyed by other peoples' tame choice of words when discussing a topic, and yet you even took time out to comment on it. The bar of what compels people to do things must be somewhat lower than you had considered: that would make the need to get on a particular train utterly irresistible.

 

[Bayum]

“Dangerously overcrowded” along with “animals aren’t allowed to be carried like this” annoys me: no one forces people to get on a particular train!

Unless you have an advance ticket...

 

[30907]

“Dangerously overcrowded” along with “animals aren’t allowed to be carried like this” annoys me: no one forces people to get on a particular train!

I partly agree - but in this case, looking at RTT (1637 ex Paignton fits the description perfectly), the train had a couple of minutes' overtime at all stations as far as Taunton, which suggests it was exceptionally busy (exceptionally, because none of the other trains around then suffered similar delays).
While there were plenty of other trains to choose from on this occasion, mostly they were only as far as Exeter.

 

[221129]

I partly agree - but in this case, looking at RTT (1637 ex Paignton fits the description perfectly), the train had a couple of minutes' overtime at all stations as far as Taunton, which suggests it was exceptionally busy (exceptionally, because none of the other trains around then suffered similar delays).
While there were plenty of other trains to choose from on this occasion, mostly they were only as far as Exeter.

That was not the cause of the delay to that service.

 

[joncombe]

“Dangerously overcrowded” along with “animals aren’t allowed to be carried like this” annoys me: no one forces people to get on a particular train!

What about the people already on the train before it became so crowded?

 

[Starmill]

This remained empty apart from a disabled couple and a young family who were made to pay an upgrade fee for a 10-15 min journey leaving the rest of the carriages dangerously crowded.

This is in line with typical practice at XC. I have been on one of their trains many times when Standard class is so full that people are struggling to board, but many First Class seats were free and First Class vestibules have lots of space but both remained First Class ticket holders only, in line with NRCoT. If you wish to escape the overcrowding your only option is to pay more for a First Class ticket or not travel. This is not a surprise in the case of XC.

 

[Starmill]

no one forces people to get on a particular train!

What about people who had reserved seating, or for whom this service was the final one of the day that would allow them to reach their destination? What about people whose travel documents only allowed them to use CrossCountry, which may have imposed a two hour delay on them if they didn't board, or people with Advance tickets, who may have had to pay up to hundreds of pounds for new tickets if they didn't board?

There are a whole host of other possibilities, including that some people onboard would have been happy to abandon the train in favour of waiting for a less crowded one but couldn't because they could not get to the doors. A very poorly thought through comment.

 

[221129]

This is in line with typical practice at XC. I have been on one of their trains many times when Standard class is so full that people are struggling to board, but many First Class seats were free and First Class vestibules have lots of space but both remained First Class ticket holders only, in line with NRCoT. If you wish to escape the overcrowding your only option is to pay more for a First Class ticket or not travel. This is not a surprise in the case of XC.

The vestibule outside the toilet is not first class. The vestibule at the other end is a staff working area and is not ideally used for any passengers standing first class or otherwise

 

[30907]

That was not the cause of the delay to that service.

Pure coincidence, then. Fair enough. So I'd be interested to know what the level of overcrowding actually was, if the OP could be more specific: 20 standing in a saloon? 30?

 

[gazthomas]

It is good to see services being full, but XC are still living with the "Operation Princess" legacy of stupidly short Voyager trains. I must confess, if I had purchased a 1st class ticket I would annoyed if the carriage was declassified but I accept that it might be the right decision for the overall train, with lots of people in standard, some of whom may of be infirm

 

[47271]

The only thing that's surprising about this subject is that it's considered a surprise that Cross Country will allow a four car set to be rammed whilst only a few seats are occupied in First.

It's with regret that in the past year or so I've had to use this operator a lot more than before, in my case mainly between Manchester and Bristol or between Manchester and Oxford.

On the two occasions that I've had a Standard open ticket the reservation system was broken (so I had no idea where I could safely sit) and I had to vacate my seat mid journey to pay to upgrade to First Class. There's only been one instance where I've made a journey on a Standard Class advance and been able to sit in the correct reserved seat without difficulty.

On the other four occasions when I've bought First in advance it's been clear to me that the rest of the the train has been rammed and the guard's main job is to charge for upgrades or kick people out of First.

So, enough people are desperate enough to pay the upgrade, I suspect that's why they won't declassify First regardless of circumstances. There's money to be made from misery.

 

[Hadders]

My parents were recently on a very full XC service from Newcastle to Birmingham. Rather than declassify 1st Class the Train Manager have a free upgrade to a sufficient number of passengers to fill all of the seats in 1st.

 

[AM9]

My parents were recently on a very full XC service from Newcastle to Birmingham. Rather than declassify 1st Class the Train Manager have a free upgrade to a sufficient number of passengers to fill all of the seats in 1st.

That's probably more cost effective as it wouldn't result in claims for refunds of the difference between 1st and standard by those who held 1st class tickets.

 

[Haywain]

That's probably more cost effective as it wouldn't result in claims for refunds of the difference between 1st and standard by those who held 1st class tickets.

It would also have the benefit of (potentially) giving the upgrade to those in greater need.

 

[najaB]

...and the guard's main job is to charge for upgrades...

I think you'll find that is *way* down their list of priorities.

 

[47271]

I think you'll find that is *way* down their list of priorities.

Maybe you're right and I was exaggerating a bit, but I've never been on any other operator's First Class section that's needed a ticket inspection after every station...

 

[221129]

Maybe you're right and I was exaggerating a bit, but I've never been on any other operator's First Class section that's needed a ticket inspection after every station...

It makes a lot of sense on a voyager. Given that the TMs 'Office' is in the galley...

 

[Jonfun]

Maybe you're right and I was exaggerating a bit, but I've never been on any other operator's First Class section that's needed a ticket inspection after every station...

Not everyone would have their ticket checked though, just those who had joined at the last stop. There's no point holding off checking tickets (and resultantly, issuing the first class complimentary catering items) arbitrarily. Folk would only complain they didn't get a brew quick enough!

In telation to First Class, people pay a lot of money to sit there and it's poor customer service to then go and allow it to be taken over by standard class passengers - yes, the first class ticket holders are entitled to a refund of the difference in fare, but we shouldn't be aspiring to making them have to write in and claim. If First Class is declassified it also means the First Class Host is being paid to mill around and drink tea! Though I do say that in jest, as they would of course be doing customer service duties like walking through with a binbag, luggage management, etc.

 

[boxy321]

If XC declassified 1st every time a train was packed there would never be a 1st class. I watch with hilarity the Voyagers leave New St going south absolutely heaving.

 

[185143]

I suspect this'll start a debate:

I was under the impression a BTP officer was an authorised person under the railway byelaws? So surely them telling passengers to 'use all doors' means exactly that. Surely getting up to 25% more passengers on the train for a while after a major event is more important than the exact details of their ticket-as long as they actually HAVE a ticket? (Assuming everywhere else is full first potentially)

I doubt I'd be alone in being extremely unimpressed at being left behind when there are seats available, let alone standing space!

 

[bcarmicle]

So surely them telling passengers to 'use all doors' means exactly that.

I imagine you would agree though that if members of the public attempted to board the train using the driver's cab door, that would not in fact be acceptable.

Surely getting up to 25% more passengers on the train for a while after a major event is more important than the exact details of their ticket-as long as they actually HAVE a ticket? (Assuming everywhere else is full first potentially)

But you can't have that assumption--what if the announcement "use all doors" is made even if standard is not full? For example, everyone is queuing at one door even though other carriages further down the train have plenty of space. Your argument suggests that you would be able to use First in such a scenario.

 

[DenmarkRail]

A) I have never seen a voyager leave BHM towards Manchester that did not have a heaving standard class, and an empty first... Only HSTs seem to buck this trend, and they don't go to Manchester...

B) As a frequent traveler on XC first from Bournemouth to Stafford, and Penzance to Stafford, I would be fairly annoyed if on every journey, First class was declassified... Albeit, BHM to PNZ is sometimes a HST (Saturdays, only), after paying over £130 for a FA ticket, I expect first class to be maintained.

 

[robbeech]

There’s only 1 door that doesn’t give direct access to Standard class though. So the number of people attempting to get on there will be lower. I don’t think it’s as much of an issue as you might think.
Obviously the overcrowding generally is.

 

[AM9]

... In telation to First Class, people pay a lot of money to sit there and it's poor customer service to then go and allow it to be taken over by standard class passengers ...

Ah the 'great unwashed' argument. In times of stress overloading, such antiquated attitudes are frequently and rightfully overridden by humanitarian and safety considerations, - get used to it!

 

[tiptoptaff]

Ah the 'great unwashed' argument. In times of stress overloading, such antiquated attitudes are frequently and rightfully overridden by humanitarian and safety considerations, - get used to it!

No one said "great unwashed" - you made that assumption. A busy to full train in STD doesn't entitle anyone to 1st Class travel. I do not agree with the argument that as soon as STD is full that 1st should be declassified.

 

[takno]

Ah the 'great unwashed' argument. In times of stress overloading, such antiquated attitudes are frequently and rightfully overridden by humanitarian and safety considerations, - get used to it!

The train being full and standing is neither a humanitarian nor a safety consideration. If it was then the train wouldn't be leaving the station until some people got off.