First Class

[GodAtum]

Anyone know what some Southern 377s have partition doors to 1st and some dont?

 

[southern442]

Anyone know what some Southern 377s have partition doors to 1st and some dont?

377/4's have partition doors, so that's roughly a quarter of units. Not a lot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank you for your reply, I'm not sure what the train was that I was on last August but it was a v similar design to this. I will be writing to them as the toilet was also locked at Angmering, two hours before closing time!

If they say anything about the doors, make sure you tell us. It will be interesting to know why they haven't got them.

 

[HST Power]

Coming home from Newcastle last week, we got into York and the door in Coach K leading into the crew area locked out completely, meaning one passenger had to walk back up the coach and disembark at the other end.

Can train crew lock those doors, or was it just stuck? Would be interested to know.

 

[sarahj]

First gen 377's dont have doors into first class as first class was originaly going to be larger. If you see one without the door, have a look at the rest of the train, the seats up to a glass partition have the velco bits on to fix down the first class headrests. This amount of first class seating was then seen as way too much and it was scaled down to what we have today. And no, doors have not been removed.
Its like the units that are 2+3 seating in all four coaches, or units that have no large tables in coaches 1 and 4. They are supposed to be used on inner suburban runs. The furthest out they are supposed to be used is on horsham to london bridge/victoria stoppers (the one that takes 50 mins from gatwick to victoria). But sometimes due to shortages they sometimes make it down to the coast.
You also might see some 3 car units on mainline on the weekends where 12 car trains are made of of 4 x 3 cars units rather than 3 x 4 car units. All the coasts 3 car units went up to London surburban about 2-3 years ago and we got the 313's to replace them. but we get them back on the weekends to make up the 12 car BML expresses. The main issue is that means a 12 car unit has 4 toilets rather than 6 on a 4 car 12 car unit, which means more use on a weekend for less toilets. By sunday evening they get full or very messy.

 

[southern442]

Thanks, This explains a lot. I can imagine that the early 377/1s were meant for express services.

 

[Roverman]

Thanks SarahJ for that snippet of info!

 

[OhNoAPacer]

If you travel first class on London Midland then you get the bonus of spotting how many people get to travel without the bother of actually having a first class ticket (between Coventry and New Street seems particularly rife).

I will say that Virgin 1st class is definitely better then standard, even on the super voyagers.

London Midland 350s, well as far as I can tell other than it usually being less crowded then 1st and standard class is not really any different, well okay in the 350/2 you actually get somewhere to put your coffee cup in 1st class.

I guess the general rule is that what are generally regarded as commuter routes will have 1st class that is not much different from standard, well as far as seating is concerned, and also no freebies, but long distance services will generally be better, and may also involve some freebies.

As with all things whether or not it is worth it will depend on the individual and their circumstances.

 

[Roverman]

Spot on ONAP

I changed at London onto a Virgin train and despite it being a Sunday evening I was provided with free food and drink, the First and Second Class sections were clearly demarcated. The Southern train, didn't even have a power socket!

The irony of it all is that the journey on the Southern train lasted longer than the Virgin journey (93 minutes versus 83)

 

[paulypaul]

I like East Midlands Trains' Saturday Morning Breakfast Trains.

The First Advance Breakfast from Leicester, at £24.40 inc railcard discount, is an out and out bargain, given that first class tickets are around the £17/£20 mark, without breakie.

 

[southern442]

I recently saw a 377/3 that had two ends of first class seating. Have they converted some of it?

 

[swt_passenger]

I recently saw a 377/3 that had two ends of first class seating. Have they converted some of it?

377/3s had two First areas as built didn't they? .

 

[southern442]

377/3s had two First areas as built didn't they? .

when they were refurbished with smaller tables, one area of big tables were kept and that became first class. This train's extra first compartment had smaller tables.

 

[Roverman]

377/4's have partition doors, so that's roughly a quarter of units. Not a lot.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If they say anything about the doors, make sure you tell us. It will be interesting to know why they haven't got them.

Thread Resurrection!

Well Southern are doing their usual bang up job at keeping people informed. I've had 2 letters this week from them. Read them when I got home from hols last night.

Letter 1 confirms they have my letter, claiming refunds are taking 20 days+ due to volume (in other words they are too tight to employ a decent number of letter readers) no answer to any of the questions I made!

Letter 2 from our usual friend 'M.M' claiming she has processed my full refund request but I can't have any money because I used the ticket!!!

What planet are these people on?!

I have NOT asked for a full refund, I have complained about the 3rd class service received for 1st class travel. I have complained about the open door style of the train whereby there is no demarcation between 1st and Standard. I have also complained about the platform toilet being locked out of use, 2 hours before its printed closure time. Not one of these points have been addressed. I ended the letter asking for a payment to be made to me of the difference between 1st and Standard.

Not only have they ignored the points I reasonably raised, they have not returned my tickets, so now I have no paper evidence of my journey. I believe this to be a deliberate act as to try and stop me pursuing the matter.

More fool them. A reply is going in to Chris Burchell, MD and James Burt who is Director of Service Delivery with my original points reiterated and a few more regarding their Customer Dis-Services Department.

 

[Bishopstone]

When Connex held the South Central and South Eastern franchises, their intention was to do away with First Class when the Electrostars arrived, on the basis the new trains offered 'Inter City' style seating to all - ie 2+2 arranged mostly around tables, with good seat/window alignment.

What then happened was:

1. First Class commuters (mostly from Brighton) on South Central kicked-off, and belatedly it was agreed to retain FC accommodation. However, by then the 377/1 and 377/3 sub-classes had already been built - hence the lack of partition doors and identical seating in FC and Standard. The design was changed in time for the 377/4 sub-class, and by then GoVia had obtained the South Central franchise.

2. On South Eastern, the future of First Class was put out to passenger consultation, and again the Tunbridge Wells etc mob kicked-off, so FC was retained.

The only reason you would pay to travel FC with Southern, South Eastern and FCC Thameslink is to get a virtually guaranteed seat in the peaks, rather than potentially standing for 30 minutes plus. None of these TOCs make any grand claims about their FC service, or seek to compare it with the likes of Virgin.

There are capacity issues on Southern, South Eastern and FCC that could be eased (slightly) by the abolition of First Class, and I believe FCC actively want to abandon First Class on Thameslink, which is reflected in their lack of enforcement of it - the same comments also applying to fGW Thames Turbos.

However:

1. First Class commuters are a loud bunch, and of course wish to retain it.

2. Abolishing First Class would result in a fairly significant loss of revenue, which would have to be made-up by increasing Standard fares or taxpayer subsidy of the TOCs, neither of which is palatable.

So, the status quo remains.

But 'caveat emptor': don't travel FC on south east commuter lines if you expect to be plied with freebie refreshments and WiFi; don't expect a power socket and don't expect Standard ticket holders to be ejected, because revenue protection is the exception rather than the rule. (Although, SWT performs much better on most of the above measures).

 

[Roverman]

Thank you for your detailed reply. I reckon you should go and replace our friend MM in Customer Services.

I completely understand why on a short hop commuter service they would want to expunge the FC section in order to ease crowsing issues on the train, after all LU is one class for all, even the Paris Metro has been single class since 1981. However this was a service running from Bognor Regis to London Victoria taking almost 2 hours, my journey was 93 minutes, for this length of journey where one has the choice to buy First or Standard, then you should get a better standard of service.

Now on top of providing a substandard service they don't even deal with complaints properly!

 

[southern442]

What is everyone's opinions on class 442 back in the SWT days?

 

[Lee_Again]

In First, loved it. A smoking compartment and an open section.

 

[southern442]

In First, loved it. A smoking compartment and an open section.

Were you allowed to smoke? I didn't realize.

 

[Muzer]

Were you allowed to smoke? I didn't realize.

SWT were one of the first to ban it after a fire. Good riddance, I say, but then again I'm not a smoker.

 

[westv]

Were you allowed to smoke? I didn't realize.

Next year marks the 30th anniversary of the smoking ban being introduced on LU services but not stations (that came in 1987 after King Cross)

 

[jb]

When Connex held the South Central and South Eastern franchises, their intention was to do away with First Class when the Electrostars arrived, on the basis the new trains offered 'Inter City' style seating to all - ie 2+2 arranged mostly around tables, with good seat/window alignment.

What then happened was:

1. First Class commuters (mostly from Brighton) on South Central kicked-off, and belatedly it was agreed to retain FC accommodation. However, by then the 377/1 and 377/3 sub-classes had already been built - hence the lack of partition doors and identical seating in FC and Standard. The design was changed in time for the 377/4 sub-class, and by then GoVia had obtained the South Central franchise.

2. On South Eastern, the future of First Class was put out to passenger consultation, and again the Tunbridge Wells etc mob kicked-off, so FC was retained.

The only reason you would pay to travel FC with Southern, South Eastern and FCC Thameslink is to get a virtually guaranteed seat in the peaks, rather than potentially standing for 30 minutes plus. None of these TOCs make any grand claims about their FC service, or seek to compare it with the likes of Virgin.

There are capacity issues on Southern, South Eastern and FCC that could be eased (slightly) by the abolition of First Class, and I believe FCC actively want to abandon First Class on Thameslink, which is reflected in their lack of enforcement of it - the same comments also applying to fGW Thames Turbos.

However:

1. First Class commuters are a loud bunch, and of course wish to retain it.

2. Abolishing First Class would result in a fairly significant loss of revenue, which would have to be made-up by increasing Standard fares or taxpayer subsidy of the TOCs, neither of which is palatable.

So, the status quo remains.

But 'caveat emptor': don't travel FC on south east commuter lines if you expect to be plied with freebie refreshments and WiFi; don't expect a power socket and don't expect Standard ticket holders to be ejected, because revenue protection is the exception rather than the rule. (Although, SWT performs much better on most of the above measures).

Excellent post, which should be resurrected each and every time comparisons between apples and oranges of radically different first class services are attempted.

 

[southern442]

Excellent post, which should be resurrected each and every time comparisons between apples and oranges of radically different first class services are attempted.

I totally agree with you and I realize that you cannot compare some first class with another (e.g Class 319 and 390 or 360 and HST) because they have different purposes. Longer distance 1st gives you luxury travel, whilst suburban 1st class mainly exists so people can get a seat but usually some form of added bonus is provided. As for airport express first class, I am unsure as to why this exists as it is normally only a 20-30 minute journey (but maybe in the future you could get a deal where if you fly first class then you can get complimentary first on the express services )

I have heard that you can reserve seats in Southern, could someone shed some light on that?

 

[sarahj]

I cannot see how you could reserve seats on our trains, there are no seat numbers. I think someone is getting the reservation coupon of an advance ticket mixed up with a seat reservation.
First class on a 442, remember some of them do longer trips, eg Eastbourne to London Bridge and of course the Brighton - Victoria and Brighton to london bridge runs. The regulars seem happy with them.

When we first got our 442's, they were unrefurbished, and in fact I was trained on one. First class seemed nice, I liked the compartment, and loved the kitchen, with the intructions on how to make cup a soup :roll:. The snug was popular as well on those first runs. There was also a telephone kiosk (remember them!!!).

As for first class on other trains (377). TBH outside of the BML, there are very few first class users, and those that have seasons, will be paying to get a seat out of london during the rush hour, or a bit more space outside.
Someone did mention that Haywards Heath is the place for the highest number of first class season sales on the country. (have you seen the cars in the car park, there is a even a premier parking area).
If your paying for first class on what is an outer suburban service, your not getting first class east coast service with a meal, and no where does it say you get more than a free cup of coffee. To pay more, then moan that its nothing special, well, what can I say. I've thrown enough people out of first class as well in my time. I think most issues happen on the daytime Brighton expresses which are DOO where there might be a only be the odd RPO.

 

[Butts]

Next year marks the 30th anniversary of the smoking ban being introduced on LU services but not stations (that came in 1987 after King Cross)

A sad day indeed for humanity :cry:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In First, loved it. A smoking compartment and an open section.

Happy Days
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Were you allowed to smoke? I didn't realize.

Believe it or not Britain was once a liberal country
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

SWT were one of the first to ban it after a fire. Good riddance, I say, but then again I'm not a smoker.

Party Poopers :roll:

 

[southern442]

I cannot see how you could reserve seats on our trains, there are no seat numbers. I think someone is getting the reservation coupon of an advance ticket mixed up with a seat reservation.
First class on a 442, remember some of them do longer trips, eg Eastbourne to London Bridge and of course the Brighton - Victoria and Brighton to london bridge runs. The regulars seem happy with them.

When we first got our 442's, they were unrefurbished, and in fact I was trained on one. First class seemed nice, I liked the compartment, and loved the kitchen, with the intructions on how to make cup a soup :roll:. The snug was popular as well on those first runs. There was also a telephone kiosk (remember them!!!).

As for first class on other trains (377). TBH outside of the BML, there are very few first class users, and those that have seasons, will be paying to get a seat out of london during the rush hour, or a bit more space outside.
Someone did mention that Haywards Heath is the place for the highest number of first class season sales on the country. (have you seen the cars in the car park, there is a even a premier parking area).
If your paying for first class on what is an outer suburban service, your not getting first class east coast service with a meal, and no where does it say you get more than a free cup of coffee. To pay more, then moan that its nothing special, well, what can I say. I've thrown enough people out of first class as well in my time. I think most issues happen on the daytime Brighton expresses which are DOO where there might be a only be the odd RPO.

That clears up the reservation issue for me. Were the compartments still in use by southern before they were refurbished?

 

[tsr]

SWT were one of the first to ban it after a fire. Good riddance, I say, but then again I'm not a smoker.

To be fair, a 442 will happily catch fire (and smoke) all by itself

 

[sarahj]

That clears up the reservation issue for me. Were the compartments still in use by southern before they were refurbished?

Yup, and the snug. Even had an unrefurb one a few months in. Declassifed a few of the first class compartments as it was a 5 car rather than a 10 car.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I cannot see how you could reserve seats on our trains, there are no seat numbers. I think someone is getting the reservation coupon of an advance ticket mixed up with a seat reservation.

Sort of.

When you book online, Southern trains with advance fares will display the diamond logo to say you can reserve seats, and the system will allow you to "reserve" a seat even with a SVR, etc. In reality when you try to reserve a seat it gives you a reservation coupon with asterisks for the carriage and seat number.

You see the same thing in the north east where Northern offer advance tickets. The idea of reserving a seat on a 142 from Newcastle to Carlisle is even more amusing.

 

[GodAtum]

I hate FCC 1st class, mainly because I can ever find it! At London Bridge was announced 1st class was in the front and middle. So i went to the middle. Train can in and there was none. So I ran to the front only to get there too late.

 

[HST Power]

I hate FCC 1st class, mainly because I can ever find it! At London Bridge was announced 1st class was in the front and middle. So i went to the middle. Train can in and there was none. So I ran to the front only to get there too late.

That's unfortunate! It's very clear on the Great Northern. It's in the front and back on the 365 and the 321. The (ghastly) 317 has First Class in the middle.

Last night I ventured home First Class on a 365. I have to say, I am starting to warm towards the 'two' seats as opposed to a 'four.' It looks like you get less space but in hindsight it's much better. I was able to spread out with the FT, and you get quite a bit more legroom as well.