First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

I think you do an injustice to James Freeman - this is a man who took Provincial from a small, vulnerable isolated operator and competed very effectively with Stagecoach/Transit Holdings and Southampton Citybus/SBL and did so whilst amassing various Mk1 Nationals, new minibuses and latterly Darts. He is a very able busman (and no, he isn't a friend or relative ) I would say the same of many of the people that are in senior positions.

We are seeing all of the big groups drawing their horns in, whether that's Stagecoach in Fife/Somerset/Wales or Arriva in the Midlands. There are inescapable facts - note how Stagecoach (who I admire greatly) recorded a 0.8% decrease in passengers. Reduced local authority expenditure on supported services is one issue. Then you have the reduction in ENCTS remuneration - Somerset is one place where it is 40% of the single fare hence why Stagecoach have eventually vacated. Arriva recorded a drop of 1.7%. It isn't easy out there. Then you have traffic congestion which is really affecting bus operations across the country whether that be Arriva on Merseyside or First in Bristol - do you add more vehicles into your fleet for no more revenue just to maintain headways or do you maintain the fleet and widen the headways?

I do recognise some of the underlying issues that still persist from the bad old days. The average age of the First fleet and its general condition compares poorly with other groups. In Bristol, some of the 1999 B7TLs are being upgraded to meet PSVAR when ordinarily they'd be on their way. That is a cause for concern. Yes, Stagecoach are innovative with things like the SW Falcon. You look at that, or the X5, and then compare it to the Swansea Shuttle - yes, agree the gap is huge in that respect.

Likewise, there should be a number of upsides; FSW should be better given that Plymouth has gone, a full year of no WGL plus the future prospect of a stronger Somerset business. Bristol should be benefitting from more passengers. They've pulled out of Hereford (very marginal) and Bracknell (competition) and managed to release themselves from the straitjacket in Scotland, plus the benefits from the South Yorkshire partnership. Therefore, why this is not reflected more is a concern, I grant you. Are the plusses there being counteracted by the general depression in the North especially in retail footfall and overall economic activity? Is a depressed Aberdeen outweighing a more buoyant Portsmouth? Don't know.

The need to be tougher on costs (and that is an area where Stagecoach lead the way) is clear and that means more depot closures (a couple do spring to mind), centralisation and service rationalisation whilst still trying to encourage patronage. The debt pile is coming down (over 6%) and note that their Fitch ratings (BBB) are the same as Stagecoach.

For those reasons, that's why I don't think you see the clamour on this thread reflected in the markets. The institutional investors are sitting this out for a while, probably because they think they're in deep enough to have to do so. However, have this conversation in a years' time and you might see that change.

One business that I know well had a similar experience and suspended the dividend for 5 years. The Chief Exec got the push and a plan was enacted whereby there was an exiting of various non-core and loss making operations, some walked away from and others sold. The dividend has now been reinstated. It does take time but you're right in that patience will run thin. However, not seen anything from the investors to show that is the case at the moment (excluding that carpet bagger from a few years back)

A fair, and balanced, summary. The millstone around the neck of First Group is that massive debt - does any other public transport operator come anywhere near such an enormous figure ?

 

[overthewater]

The awful truth is there will HAVE to sell something to clear its debts, First group just cant pretending its can pay them off.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The awful truth is there will HAVE to sell something to clear its debts, First group just cant pretending its can pay them off.

Remember - NatEx has roughly the same gearing ratio as First Group

We can all discuss the whys and wherefores of how FGP got into their mess and the battle to extricate themselves. We can also wonder why they aren't being pressured by the institutional investors, but the fact is that they're not.

There may be pressure brought to bear especially if the dividend is still AWOL but what happens should FGP win the SWT franchise?

I think there's far too many things at play to explain what is happening now and what may occur in future.

 

[winston270twm]

Remember - NatEx has roughly the same gearing ratio as First Group

We can all discuss the whys and wherefores of how FGP got into their mess and the battle to extricate themselves. We can also wonder why they aren't being pressured by the institutional investors, but the fact is that they're not.

There may be pressure brought to bear especially if the dividend is still AWOL but what happens should FGP win the SWT franchise?

I think there's far too many things at play to explain what is happening now and what may occur in future.

But the difference between NX & First Group, is that NX are expanding, not contracting like First Group & they draw approx 1/3 of the turnover/profit from 3 main divisions i.e. UK Bus & Coach, Spain & USA and are therefore less exposed to changes in one of their main markets. NX Group UK subsidaires such as Coach, C2C & NXWM are all also winning top awards through operational excellence.

Re-instating First Groups dividend of any size hasn't even been mentioned by the board.

 

[Robertj21a]

Remember - NatEx has roughly the same gearing ratio as First Group

We can all discuss the whys and wherefores of how FGP got into their mess and the battle to extricate themselves. We can also wonder why they aren't being pressured by the institutional investors, but the fact is that they're not.

There may be pressure brought to bear especially if the dividend is still AWOL but what happens should FGP win the SWT franchise?

I think there's far too many things at play to explain what is happening now and what may occur in future.

I wonder, *if* FGP did win the SWT franchise (unlikely ?), how would shareholders react ? - I'm guessing that rather a lot might view First as having bid too high, coupled with those who recognise SWT as a potential minefield (and possibly better left to Stagecoach !).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But the difference between NX & First Group, is that NX are expanding, not contracting like First Group & they draw approx 1/3 of the turnover/profit from 3 main divisions i.e. UK Bus & Coach, Spain & USA and are therefore less exposed to changes in one of their main markets. NX Group UK subsidaires such as Coach, C2C & NXWM are all also winning top awards through operational excellence.

Re-instating First Groups dividend of any size hasn't even been mentioned by the board.

Fitch would argue otherwise:

FirstGroup operates within a well-diversified, albeit competitive and fragmented, selection of transport sectors including school bus, transit, intercity coach and local bus services in the UK and North America. This diversity provides the company with a strong mix of consistent contract-based earnings, such as in US Student and UK rail, which can help counter its more cyclical operations, such as intercity coach services, during difficult economic conditions.

Notwithstanding that, they have 5 key business areas so there's the argument that they're less exposed to a downturn in any particular area.

I'm not cheerleading for First Group here; I too am a put upon shareholder However, if people are wondering why x or y isn't happening from the institutions, then those are probably the factors that are influencing them.

Also, expanding is all very good but everyone realises that isn't where First Group are. However, they're sitting tight in the hope that the corner has been turned and that there's good times some time in the future. Also, Hargreaves Lansdown report in the last 6 months that of leading brokers, the 6 recommendations were split was 1 Strong Sell, 2 Hold/Neutral and 3 Strong Buy. Of course, they can't be all right but there's a majority view at the moment that the stock is worth keeping onto or even buying into.

Legal Disclaimer: I am a notorious bad tipper of shares - I am merely reporting not advocating. Your home may be ditch if you take my advice!!

 

[Andyh82]

You can see this with Stagecoach and Arriva too, closing depots and rationalising services. The curious aspect is that First West Yorkshire is perhaps the best performer (a former PTE operation) whereas Manchester and South Yorkshire have not returned great figures. There may be some impact on Manchester with the Metrolink out to Oldham and Rochdale but the underlying reason why these aren't doing better is peculiar. Remember that they have cut their fares as well to stimulate growth too.

First WY have pretty much a complete monopoly in Leeds and besides tendered services a complete monopoly in Bradford. First Manchester faces competition from the Metrolink and Stagecoach, plus of course it only operates half the services in Manchester itself and a higher proportion of its network will be ones in struggling northern towns like Bolton, Oldham etc.

First SY seem to have been having issues since Stagecoach bought Yorkshire Terrier and launched new buses and strong branding that First have probably never ever recovered from.

Of course it isn't all rosy even at First WY, whereas pretty much the entire fleet is in the new livery, and has been for quite a while, very little have seen any interior refurbishments and you've got large numbers of W reg vehicles with very tired interiors kicking around.

 

[Robertj21a]

Fitch would argue otherwise:

FirstGroup operates within a well-diversified, albeit competitive and fragmented, selection of transport sectors including school bus, transit, intercity coach and local bus services in the UK and North America. This diversity provides the company with a strong mix of consistent contract-based earnings, such as in US Student and UK rail, which can help counter its more cyclical operations, such as intercity coach services, during difficult economic conditions.

Notwithstanding that, they have 5 key business areas so there's the argument that they're less exposed to a downturn in any particular area.

I'm not cheerleading for First Group here; I too am a put upon shareholder However, if people are wondering why x or y isn't happening from the institutions, then those are probably the factors that are influencing them.

Also, expanding is all very good but everyone realises that isn't where First Group are. However, they're sitting tight in the hope that the corner has been turned and that there's good times some time in the future. Also, Hargreaves Lansdown report in the last 6 months that of leading brokers, the 6 recommendations were split was 1 Strong Sell, 2 Hold/Neutral and 3 Strong Buy. Of course, they can't be all right but there's a majority view at the moment that the stock is worth keeping onto or even buying into.

Legal Disclaimer: I am a notorious bad tipper of shares - I am merely reporting not advocating. Your home may be ditch if you take my advice!!

Like you, I am notoriously bad with shares. I have, however, learnt to never trust brokers. Perhaps if I'd realised sooner I might have had more success !

 

[winston270twm]

Fitch would argue otherwise:

FirstGroup operates within a well-diversified, albeit competitive and fragmented, selection of transport sectors including school bus, transit, intercity coach and local bus services in the UK and North America. This diversity provides the company with a strong mix of consistent contract-based earnings, such as in US Student and UK rail, which can help counter its more cyclical operations, such as intercity coach services, during difficult economic conditions.

Notwithstanding that, they have 5 key business areas so there's the argument that they're less exposed to a downturn in any particular area.

I'm not cheerleading for First Group here; I too am a put upon shareholder However, if people are wondering why x or y isn't happening from the institutions, then those are probably the factors that are influencing them.

Also, expanding is all very good but everyone realises that isn't where First Group are. However, they're sitting tight in the hope that the corner has been turned and that there's good times some time in the future. Also, Hargreaves Lansdown report in the last 6 months that of leading brokers, the 6 recommendations were split was 1 Strong Sell, 2 Hold/Neutral and 3 Strong Buy. Of course, they can't be all right but there's a majority view at the moment that the stock is worth keeping onto or even buying into.

Legal Disclaimer: I am a notorious bad tipper of shares - I am merely reporting not advocating. Your home may be ditch if you take my advice!!

In terms of NX core divisions, I was referring more to the operations being located within different countries/continents i.e. North America / Spain / UK with growing operations in North Africa, Germany & Middle East. Obviously NX will benefit from Dollar & Euro exchange rates against the pound on both counts.

As you've proved the debt levels between NX & First Group on EBITA are pretty equal, why couldn't First Group look to expand in to new markets through capital light contract wins or even bolt-on acquisitions to improve the performance of existing subsidaries quicker? That is largely how NX are growing as well as organically. I'm surprised First Group haven't looked at German Rail instead of sticking to solely the UK where they've missed out on some large franchies. Arriva also seem to be doing well from continential Europe & are expanding lately within Eastern Europe.

Whilst James Freeman does have an extensive track record, what has he brought to Bristol to date? New buses have been brought in, but few of the existing fleet have been internally freshed, First day prices have been reduced as per in other areas to stimulate demand. The main growth in business has come from pushng Wessex off tendered routes / UWE commercial routes & winning the Park & Ride contracts. Excluding the Park & Ride liveries, the new style branding for core corridors is standard First Group application that other subsidaries use.

I wouldn't take too much notice of what brokers & the press tip, there's generally an alterior motive behind it.....

 

[THarris123]

In terms of NX core divisions, I was referring more to the operations being located within different countries/continents i.e. North America / Spain / UK with growing operations in North Africa, Germany & Middle East. Obviously NX will benefit from Dollar & Euro exchange rates against the pound on both counts.

As you've proved the debt levels between NX & First Group on EBITA are pretty equal, why couldn't First Group look to expand in to new markets through capital light contract wins or even bolt-on acquisitions to improve the performance of existing subsidaries quicker? That is largely how NX are growing as well as organically. I'm surprised First Group haven't looked at German Rail instead of sticking to solely the UK where they've missed out on some large franchies. Arriva also seem to be doing well from continential Europe & are expanding lately within Eastern Europe.

Whilst James Freeman does have an extensive track record, what has he brought to Bristol to date? New buses have been brought in, but few of the existing fleet have been internally freshed, First day prices have been reduced as per in other areas to stimulate demand. The main growth in business has come from pushng Wessex off tendered routes / UWE commercial routes & winning the Park & Ride contracts. Excluding the Park & Ride liveries, the new style branding for core corridors is standard First Group application that other subsidaries use.

I wouldn't take too much notice of what brokers & the press tip, there's generally an alterior motive behind it.....

As any enthusiast knows, Freeman has been bought into Bristol for Metrobus. That will be the inevitable decider for him. So far West of England has received new buses (which it would've anyway) and has gained the other two Park and Rides in Bristol (which it could've probably done anyway too). It has retracted from Wiltshire and Somerset. The fares have increased for cash payers, but they have encouraged passengers to take up alternative methods of paying for fares. He is an experienced person in the industry, but really by now I would have expected so much more than what we have got. Got to also remember that under Freemans management West of England lost a bid for new gas buses.

 

[winston270twm]

As any enthusiast knows, Freeman has been bought into Bristol for Metrobus. That will be the inevitable decider for him. So far West of England has received new buses (which it would've anyway) and has gained the other two Park and Rides in Bristol (which it could've probably done anyway too). It has retracted from Wiltshire and Somerset. The fares have increased for cash payers, but they have encouraged passengers to take up alternative methods of paying for fares. He is an experienced person in the industry, but really by now I would have expected so much more than what we have got. Got to also remember that under Freemans management West of England lost a bid for new gas buses.

The problem is, we don't know who much his hands are tied by First Group HQ & how many of the resources / changes he wants to implement he's actually getting approval for. That was my point, he's a small fish in a big pond these days...... Bristol equates to approx 6% of entire UK Bus fleet strength.

 

[overthewater]

The problem is, we don't know who much his hands are tied by First Group HQ & how many of the resources / changes he wants to implement he's actually getting approval for. That was my point, he's a small fish in a big pond these days...... Bristol equates to approx 6% of entire UK Bus fleet strength.

What is the point of getting him in?

 

[Robertj21a]

What is the point of getting him in?

James Freeman, and the other senior managers who have joined First in recent years, have helped to improve the expertise of the senior management team in the UK Bus division. There was a noticeable shortage of managers with suitable skills for the Group given that it was in a difficult financial position already.

There seems to be regular concern over the delegated authorities given to such/all managers and it may be that some greater flexibility would enable them to show their true worth. Certainly, the impression is that Stagecoach allows greater discretion and authority to similar positions within the First organisation.

 

[THarris123]

What is the point of getting him in?

Like I say - Metrobus.

 

[Robertj21a]

Like I say - Metrobus.

Why, what are his special skills that would be appropriate for Metrobus ?.

Surely, Bristol is far more than just Metrobus, it's a sizeable operation, in difficult operating conditions, worthy of an industry 'heavyweight' who understands a range of issues.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As any enthusiast knows, Freeman has been bought into Bristol for Metrobus. That will be the inevitable decider for him. So far West of England has received new buses (which it would've anyway) and has gained the other two Park and Rides in Bristol (which it could've probably done anyway too). It has retracted from Wiltshire and Somerset. The fares have increased for cash payers, but they have encouraged passengers to take up alternative methods of paying for fares. He is an experienced person in the industry, but really by now I would have expected so much more than what we have got. Got to also remember that under Freemans management West of England lost a bid for new gas buses.

"As any enthusiast knows" - well, sadly, that's a line that's usually a prelude to uninformed speculation.

I think there's some rather unfair criticism being laid at Freeman's door. The retrenchment in Somerset is really a move of certain routes to Buses of Somerset that was essentially to assist in the Webberbus battle. Similarly, the cuts around Frome where there were services that clearly weren't viable especially with the Faresaver incursion. This extends to Wiltshire and both (and many other examples across the UK) date back to First's complacency in the Lockhead era. Note the response of Stagecoach when Faresaver tried to compete against them!

I also think it's a bit rich to say that "under Freemans management West of England lost a bid for new gas buses". It was his innovative approach behind that bid in the first place and if anything, it was too ambitious and too innovative and would've soaked up too greater a percentage of the DfT's budget! Also, the idea that First would probably have got the P&R work anyway. Well, given that on the previous rounds, they've lost out to Wessex and CT Plus, it would indicate that there are few "givens" in life.

I've commented on that I've been a bit surprised that the route branding hasn't been more extensive and more quickly rolled out. However, there has been quite a bit of focus on just trying to deliver the day to day service which in Bristol is a challenge enough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Like I say - Metrobus.

Think the other main reason is that a) Paul Matthews had signalled he wanted to move on and b) James Freeman has personal and family reasons for wishing to be back in the South West

His record in working on Badgerline Rapid Transit is, of course, an advantage. However, he is vastly experienced and there's a lot to do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem is, we don't know who much his hands are tied by First Group HQ & how many of the resources / changes he wants to implement he's actually getting approval for. That was my point, he's a small fish in a big pond these days...... Bristol equates to approx 6% of entire UK Bus fleet strength.

Come on Winston - you know better than that

The days of the old Aberdeen diktat and Moir's micro-management are now long gone. That said, as with any large business, he will have his numbers to hit and will have to work within the realms of available capital and the wider First strategy.

Also, James Freeman isn't some sort of small firm maverick. He cut his teeth in the NBC, and also managed Stagecoach's Midlands operations (MRS/UCOC) for a number of years - note, that was in the bad old days of Stagecoach in the Coach USA era! He's well versed in managing in the corporate world!

I'd also point out that whilst First in Bath/Bristol may be pursuing a policy of forcing Rotala out, they seem to be doing quite well in doing so. Wander around UWE and see how First have pushed them out. We shall see how the latest Bath Uni initiatives impact during this academic year but First seem to have the upper hand there though I concede my observations are limited.

Managers in First have a lot more latitude than in the Blockhead days. That's why so many of them left in those days, sick of the interference and the stories of hectoring. It was clear to Giles that there was a paucity of good management as a result and hence why they've gone out and sought to attract experienced players. However, the headwinds are there for the entire industry. Exactly why West Yorkshire is doing relatively well but Greater Manchester isn't, I really don't know. After all, is Halifax or Huddersfield so much more buoyant than Oldham or Bury?

I do take your point on the utterances of economists and brokers. I was perhaps illustrating that it's those views, rightly or wrongly, that may be influencing the decisions of the institutions.

 

[baza585]

I think you do an injustice to James Freeman - this is a man who took Provincial from a small, vulnerable isolated operator and competed very effectively with Stagecoach/Transit Holdings and Southampton Citybus/SBL and did so whilst amassing various Mk1 Nationals, new minibuses and latterly Darts. He is a very able busman

Indeed. The writing was on the wall for Provvy after de-regulation, and we locals didn't give them all that long, but by sensible acquisition of basically solid but badly neglected Mk 1 Nationals, and some small batches of minis, he steered them through some severe competition and made a successful business which First eventually bought. It is noteworthy that the ESOP meant the staff were with him all the way and they transformed the business from a tired small NBC outfit to an operation that fought off many attacks from Stagecoach, Solent Blue Line and Blundred.

I think folk need to be realistic in terms of what James Freeman can do in Bristol; from where I am watching, he looks to be doing OK, although I don't have access to the numbers. What some folk don't like is that he is hard-nosed in terms of profits and won't run services to every shack. Others can choose to do so if they wish. How well is the Wessex 51 doing?

 

[overthewater]

I was wondering where Mr Javis would end up, First must have lined his pocket gold. Does have have no good talent left?

https://www.firstgroup.com/about-us...ging-directors-greater-manchester-and-glasgow

From 1st January 2017, Phil Medlicott to become Managing Director for First Bus in Greater Manchester

From 18th April 2017, Andrew Jarvis to become Managing Director for First Bus in Glasgow and Scotland

Both high profile appointments to join from Stagecoach

First Bus has announced the appointment of industry leaders, Phil Medlicott and Andrew Jarvis, as the company’s new Managing Directors in Greater Manchester and Glasgow.

Phil will join the business on 1st January 2017 from Stagecoach North East, where he held the position of Managing Director, and will take over from current First Manchester Managing Director, Teresa Broxton, who has been promoted to Director of Business Change within the division.

Andrew also joins from Stagecoach, where he was Managing Director of its East Scotland operations. He will join the business on April 18th as Managing Director of Glasgow and Scotland. The Managing Directors at First Bus’s other Scottish businesses, Aberdeen and Scotland East, will report to Andrew.

Phil Medlicott said: “I'm delighted to be joining First Manchester at a time when there's so much opportunity to develop the business through working in partnership. I look forward to getting to know the team and building relationships with local stakeholders, to ensure we work together to improve services for Manchester's many bus users.”

Andrew Jarvis said: "Following a 26-year career in the bus industry, the last six of which have been in Scotland, I am delighted to be joining the teams at First Glasgow and across Scotland in the spring as Managing Director. I am looking forward to getting to know the teams, understanding the detail of the business and working with our customers and stakeholders."

Both Phil and Andrew will report to Dave Alexander, Divisional Director for First Bus. Dave said: “I’m delighted to welcome both Phil and Andrew to First Bus, both of whom have delivered successfully in their roles to date and bring with them a wealth of experience and a passion and flair for customer service and stakeholder engagement.”

Phil Medlicott leaves Stagecoach after being with the company for more than 16 years. He took up the position of Managing Director North East in 2012, after previous roles as Managing Director for South East and Warwickshire, as well as Operations Director for Stagecoach South.

Andrew Jarvis also joins from Stagecoach having enjoyed three years as Managing Director at its East Scotland operations. Andrew was also Managing Director of Stagecoach Bluebird and Operations Director at Stagecoach South. Prior to joining Stagecoach in 2006 Andrew held a range of positions across the bus industry.

 

[the101]

I was wondering where Mr Javis would end up, First must have lined his pocket gold. Does have have no good talent left?

Really? It was obvious where he was going. At least the appointment is of a busman rather than an accountant (literally) this time. It has also been an open secret that Medlicott was heading for First since he left Stagecoach.

 

[overthewater]

Really? It was obvious where he was going. At least the appointment is of a busman rather than an accountant (literally) this time. It has also been an open secret that Medlicott was heading for First since he left Stagecoach.

Obvious to whom? :roll:

 

[the101]

Obvious to whom? :roll:

Obvious to anyone able to put two and two together and who knows a little bit about the industry, fella. Sorry if that's not you.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

What does Midland Bluebird actually trade as nowadays? This week in Croy I've seen buses that have -

First Bluebird
First Midland Bluebird
Midland Bluebird
(And the real surprise) First East Lothian

Can't they just have one name and stick with it?

 

[overthewater]

Obvious to anyone able to put two and two together and who knows a little bit about the industry, fella. Sorry if that's not you.

Two and two is not what I would say, It must have one of those things people just kept to them selfs.

What does Midland Bluebird actually trade as nowadays? This week in Croy I've seen buses that have -

First Bluebird
First Midland Bluebird
Midland Bluebird
(And the real surprise) First East Lothian

Can't they just have one name and stick with it?

There trying to get a single name, but with the recent stock take, new buses, buses being moved, its not been easy: The three names should be

* First Midland Bluebird
* First West Lothian
* First Border

First East Lothian must be the tridents which were moved over for school work, but can appear in normal service.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Two and two is not what I would say, It must have one of those things people just kept to them selfs.




There trying to get a single name, but with the recent stock take, new buses, buses being moved, its not been easy: The three names should be

* First Midland Bluebird
* First West Lothian
* First Border

First East Lothian must be the tridents which were moved over for school work, but can appear in normal service.

First East Lothian was actually on Scania 65717. Things seem to be a right mish mash these days...

 

[WatcherZero]

First Manchester alleged to have told a staff meeting today they are closing Bury, Tameside and possibly Rusholme depots.

 

[overthewater]

First Manchester alleged to have told a staff meeting today they are closing Bury, Tameside and possibly Rusholme depots.

A: Is any of them the old Finglands depot?
B: How much spare room is available in other depot?

After those two points have been answered we might be able to judge the overall complexity of this announcement.

 

[Robertj21a]

First Manchester alleged to have told a staff meeting today they are closing Bury, Tameside and possibly Rusholme depots.

If true, that suggests that the Annual Accounts due this month are not too good - and they only just scraped into an operating profit in the last Accounts.

 

[WWH44L]

First Manchester alleged to have told a staff meeting today they are closing Bury, Tameside and possibly Rusholme depots.

Reported Bury and Tameside. No mention of Rusholme as far as I'm aware. Bury has been on the cards for years due to the redevelopment of the town centre. Plenty of capacity at Bolton, Queens Rd and Oldham to accommodate the fleets.

 

[overthewater]

Reported Bury and Tameside. No mention of Rusholme as far as I'm aware. Bury has been on the cards for years due to the redevelopment of the town centre. Plenty of capacity at Bolton, Queens Rd and Oldham to accommodate the fleets.

That answers my questions then, its not a big deal then.

 

[Blackpudding]

That answers my questions then, its not a big deal then.

Unless you happen to be one of those potentially loosing your job!!