First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

Not certain exactly what you're saying and I will defer to Winston who knows a lot more about the markets that me, but here goes....

As regards Stagecoach, they had a £400m bond that they were paying 5.75% (a bit like an interest free mortgage for want of a better analogy). They were paying interest of £23m and indeed, that was what they had to pay to leave that early (again, a bit like an early redemption fee). Instead, they'll now pay £16m in interest so it costs them for 3 years but then they'll be better off, having secured cheaper money over the term. They've probably taken the decision that interest rates will only go one way so bite the bullet now.

First Group have their 2018 bond maturing. As you can see, they have had to pay some hefty bond rates in the past (look at the 2008 and 2009 rates). They were obviously to finance the Laidlaw purchase and so were very much at a sellers rate, I would assume - we can go all round the houses about the Laidlaw purchase but we've had years to discuss that.

So with the 2018 due bond - at the current rate, they're paying just short of £25m a year in interest. Now, they have just been paying the interest - see page 27 of the 2017 results. Let's assume that they replace like for like (£300m) at a rate as per Stagecoach - that's £12m a year representing a near £13m upside by getting a cheaper interest rate. Of course, if they're able to replace with a lesser amount (e.g. £250m), then the benefit is greater still.

Not certain where your debt figures come from. Think the variance with your figures may exclude bond interest. However, they do show the impact of the rights issue in 2012/3 and, when you ask about "what happened to the £100m from UK Bus sell offs", well it was to both support that pay down of debt and to fund the urgently needed investment just to meet DDA deadlines. Down here in the West Country, the paucity of new vehicle investment was laid bare with 2009 (41 new vehicles) 2010 (6), 2011 (6) - that was everything including Bristol, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall. Can't recall anything for Cymru and when I remember their fleet in 2012, it was horrifically dated.

As it is, First's 2017 results showed the net debt as being £1.29bn, a drop of 11.2% vs. 2016's £14.1bn.

Bonds may seem like a waste of money but, like a mortgage, not many can buy a new house with cash and it's the same for businesses. Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing - it's how much it is, how much headroom you have, and your ability to pay it down.

The next set of group results will be very interesting to see a) the headline figures and b) how the debt pile has changed? Will things be sufficiently optimistic on a group level (not withstanding UK Bus) that a dividend could be paid. And yes, you do wonder how things might have been had Moir negotiated with Souter on the sale of Greyhound (rumoured that £750m was offered but Moir wanted £1bn) but, as we've discussed ad nauseum, we will never know!

Can't argue with that TGW.

Bonds are basically away of deferring debt & putting repaying it back another 5 - 10 years in to the future or simply rolling it over again & again. That said, First Group may be lucky in agreeing slightly lower rates of interest than in Sept 2008 as interest rates fell sharply in the last quarter of 2008. However, they are unlikely to be able to agree rates as low as Stagecoach have got theirs for i.e. 4%, as the bond interest rate is based on risk. First Group are obviously not in as strong a position to weather the storm as Stagecoach. Therefore, First Group bonds will need to offer higher returns to be attractive to investors.

 

[winston270twm]

Your points are quite diverse.

Splitting up of the group - there's always the possibility if there is a groundswell of shareholder support for that move.

Financial implosion - any firm can be at risk of that especially if debt isn't managed. That is what brought down Carillion, and it's why Stagecoach are handing back VTEC.

Adminstration/liquidation - any administrator/liquidator is legally bound to a) not make the situation worse (i.e. by allowing a business to trade insolvently and accrue more debt) and b) to obtain the best settlement for the creditors. The most profitable parts of any business are generally most attractive to prospective purchasers.

First Groups main shareholders must be getting concerned, 5 years in the shareprice is barely above 85p rights issue prices, the rights issue funds have not brought group debt down sufficiently and the investment programme has not generated the turnaround expected, even before the current poor market conditions. No prospect of a dividend and still nursing heavy losses for investors that paid £2+ for FGP shares.

First Group are in a better position that Carillion, as they do own a lot more assets of value and their profitable businesses do generate much higher margins that Carillion's construction & services provider arms are.

First Group are currently trapped between a rock & hard place with little room for manoeuvre, they really need to be expanding / investing / making acquisitions in their profitable US & Canadian Ops School Bus & Transit Ops.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I've spoke to a few people working for First in different markets, including US and the UK in the past few months and there is a feeling that a number of well performing businesses are being held back from reaching their potential as they're seeing most of their profits getting paid into a big pot to prop up failing businesses which is in turn harming the prospects of the well performing operating divisions/companies as they're in some cases generating lots of cash but are never being able to use it as First continues to rob Peter's profitable business to prop up Paul's heavily loss making one.

 

[DD12]

Your points are quite diverse.

Splitting up of the group - there's always the possibility if there is a groundswell of shareholder support for that move.

Financial implosion - any firm can be at risk of that especially if debt isn't managed. That is what brought down Carillion, and it's why Stagecoach are handing back VTEC.

Adminstration/liquidation - any administrator/liquidator is legally bound to a) not make the situation worse (i.e. by allowing a business to trade insolvently and accrue more debt) and b) to obtain the best settlement for the creditors. The most profitable parts of any business are generally most attractive to prospective purchasers.

Thanks TGW for that concise explanation.

 

[Volvodart]

I've spoke to a few people working for First in different markets, including US and the UK in the past few months and there is a feeling that a number of well performing businesses are being held back from reaching their potential as they're seeing most of their profits getting paid into a big pot to prop up failing businesses which is in turn harming the prospects of the well performing operating divisions/companies as they're in some cases generating lots of cash but are never being able to use it as First continues to rob Peter's profitable business to prop up Paul's heavily loss making one.

Which businesses are heavy lossmakers apart from Greyhound Canada?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Can't argue with that TGW.

Bonds are basically away of deferring debt & putting repaying it back another 5 - 10 years in to the future or simply rolling it over again & again. That said, First Group may be lucky in agreeing slightly lower rates of interest than in Sept 2008 as interest rates fell sharply in the last quarter of 2008. However, they are unlikely to be able to agree rates as low as Stagecoach have got theirs for i.e. 4%, as the bond interest rate is based on risk. First Group are obviously not in as strong a position to weather the storm as Stagecoach. Therefore, First Group bonds will need to offer higher returns to be attractive to investors.

First Groups main shareholders must be getting concerned, 5 years in the shareprice is barely above 85p rights issue prices, the rights issue funds have not brought group debt down sufficiently and the investment programme has not generated the turnaround expected, even before the current poor market conditions. No prospect of a dividend and still nursing heavy losses for investors that paid £2+ for FGP shares.

First Group are in a better position that Carillion, as they do own a lot more assets of value and their profitable businesses do generate much higher margins that Carillion's construction & services provider arms are.

First Group are currently trapped between a rock & hard place with little room for manoeuvre, they really need to be expanding / investing / making acquisitions in their profitable US & Canadian Ops School Bus & Transit Ops.

Cheers Winston. I do agree with a lot of what you say - the 4% rate that Stagecoach got is probably out of reach for First Group but will still be some distance lower than the plus 8% they're currently paying. The balance sheet is healthier than Carillion and that will help get a better rate though take your point on the respective risks compared to Stagecoach!

As with FGE's comments, I know people in the bus industry and the wider First Group. There's some optimism with the improved position but the challenge in paying the debt down is a concern. Not quite a zombie company but not making the headway that was anticipated in terms of the debt. That and having to put in more to assuage the concerns of the pensions trustees.

It'll be interesting to see the full year results (due in May?) to see how the respective businesses are doing. I'm not anticipating a dividend anytime soon

 

[Andyh82]

First have tweeted some photos of the first new buses for Leeds

https://twitter.com/stufillingham/status/960782000851509248

Apologies if I haven’t followed to protocol for linking to tweets

 

[Robertj21a]

Well, there's a world of difference between running an infrequent service through to Drax and the purchase of an entire operation. As I said, surely Transdev may be more interested in something like Halifax were First looking to sell?

High Peak are based in around Buxton. Not certain why they'd want an operation in Rotherham nor why First would want to sell having just amalgamated everything into Olive Grove. Surely by removing those operations, they'd lose all the synergy benefits and contribution to that overhead?

In any event, surely it would be more logical for TM Travel (Wellglade) to consider any possible operations around Rotherham rather than Centrebus/High Peak (50% Wellglade) as TM already operate around Sheffield.

 

[overthewater]

Firstly Cheers to TGW and winston for there further explanations, very helpful. To you question about where the debt figures come from that was the Financial times page about FG plc.

I've spoke to a few people working for First in different markets, including US and the UK in the past few months and there is a feeling that a number of well performing businesses are being held back from reaching their potential as they're seeing most of their profits getting paid into a big pot to prop up failing businesses which is in turn harming the prospects of the well performing operating divisions/companies as they're in some cases generating lots of cash but are never being able to use it as First continues to rob Peter's profitable business to prop up Paul's heavily loss making one.

And there is the problem, first can't keep doing this, but its unclear how it get out of this hole. At least in FSE is was legally required and as soon as it stopped being the case in come the massive cuts and overhauled the company and it seem to be much better for it. ( there a coupe of routes it went to far but may well be revised shortly) Maybe other areas should have more deep slash and burns ?

BEFORE anyone says anything, I want a Strong First bus to compete against Stagecoach, to keep them on its toes, to help creative a competitive bus market...

Which businesses are heavy lossmakers apart from Greyhound Canada?

Does any one know the answer to this:

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Firstly Cheers to TGW and winston for there further explanations, very helpful. To you question about where the debt figures come from that was the Financial times page about FG plc.

And there is the problem, first can't keep doing this, but its unclear how it get out of this hole. At least in FSE is was legally required and as soon as it stopped being the case in come the massive cuts and overhauled the company and it seem to be much better for it. ( there a coupe of routes it went to far but may well be revised shortly) Maybe other areas should have more deep slash and burns ?

BEFORE anyone says anything, I want a Strong First bus to compete against Stagecoach, to keep them on its toes, to help creative a competitive bus market...

Does any one know the answer to this:

I'm still none the wiser about the debt variance but we'll chalk it down to excluding bond interest repayments.

I'm not certain why you're getting SO aerated about First Group. I'm a shareholder (and yes, I had some in Carillion too) and I'm not as exercised as you!

The fact is that you can slash and burn but to what extent. Perhaps throwing babies and bathwater isn't the best policy? They have cut back a lot since 2012, and I quoted the main closures/sales without recourse to all the other trimming that has gone on recently. Yes, you can close down operations but all that then happens is that you then have to take a massive write down so you're getting even more pain and reducing the contribution to the centre.

 

[winston270twm]

I'm still none the wiser about the debt variance but we'll chalk it down to excluding bond interest repayments.

I'm not certain why you're getting SO aerated about First Group. I'm a shareholder (and yes, I had some in Carillion too) and I'm not as exercised as you!

The fact is that you can slash and burn but to what extent. Perhaps throwing babies and bathwater isn't the best policy? They have cut back a lot since 2012, and I quoted the main closures/sales without recourse to all the other trimming that has gone on recently. Yes, you can close down operations but all that then happens is that you then have to take a massive write down so you're getting even more pain and reducing the contribution to the centre.

And me! I feel your pain.... Plus my current main source of work was also a Carillion Construction Project

Thankfully, I bought in FGP near the bottom & got out with a small profit, currently accumulating Stagecoach as a potential recovery stock & it pays a sizeable dividend 'currently'

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And me! I feel your pain.... Plus my current main source of work was also a Carillion Construction Project

Thankfully, I bought in FGP near the bottom & got out with a small profit, currently accumulating Stagecoach as a potential recovery stock & it pays a sizeable dividend 'currently'

Sorry to hear that (about Carillion and your work). As for shares, I also have some in Balfour Beatty so perhaps they may profit from Carillion's demise.... is that blind hope speaking

 

[overthewater]

RBS 10p you couldn't lose anyways, Glasgow continues to grumble some without cause. https://www.firstgroup.com/greater-...first-glasgow-offer-further-information-fares

First Glasgow offer further information on fares revisions ahead of parliamentary debate on bus services in Glasgow

Local bus operator First Glasgow is providing further details of its recent fare changes which saw many price freezes and reductions back in early January, as the Scottish Parliament prepares to debate a motion on bus services in Glasgow.

First Glasgow has been challenged from some areas regarding greater detail behind our mobile ticketing strategy which seeks to encourage more customers to purchase tickets on their mobile device. This strategy is centred on providing a greater level of discount for some tickets purchased on mobile as this convenient method of payment can allow for significant reductions in the boarding times of buses in turn reducing journey times for all customers.

First Glasgow and the bus industry in general, are faced with the ever-increasing problem of congestion as one of the main reasons for spiralling operating costs, but yet it is something they cannot control.

Something that can be addressed, however, is time spent at the bus stop dealing with cash. This is simply unaffordable in the modern urban bus network. ‘Smart’ methods of ticketing allow much faster boarding and thus, allowing the bus to keep moving and provide a more punctual journey.

Prices of some mobile mTicket products were frozen as part of our very limited fares revision early in 2017 and First Glasgow has done the same again for 2018.

Graeme Macfarlan Commercial Director for First Glasgow said “We have seen a significant rise in uptake of the mTicket products since their inception and this figure is forecasted to continue its massive growth in the year ahead. 38% of customers compared to just 16% last year are now buying mTickets on a weekly basis and I fully expect this growth to continue.”

A child single fare purchased on-bus increase from 70p to £1 has been one of the main talking points, yet it has been held at or below the previous level since 2011, so even with this adjustment still represents great value, particularly compared to the same ticket in other cities.

There is great news for parents wanting to sort out their children’s travel costs in advance as they can now purchase tickets on the mobile app and download them to their child’s phone removing the need for their child to handle cash, making it easier to manage travel costs.

First Glasgow also announced that the child network mTicket was reduced from £2.10 to £1.50, with just one lower price for accompanied and unaccompanied children. The ticket is still available on bus at £2 a day. There is further good news for families as the price of the city zone and local zone off-peak family tickets fell from £10.00 to £9.00.

Smartphone ownership in Scotland continues to rise and so, like many other business across every sector, First Bus will continue to strive to meet the demand for faster and convenient ways to provide access to tickets for customers via mobile ticketing. A recent OFCOM report into the uptake of web-enabled phones by age group (Glasgow City Council area) reports that 100% of people between the age of 25 & 44 own a web-enabled smartphone. * (see attached figures in editors notes)

Aligning with customer expectations, people can now pay quickly and without the need for change using contactless, Apple Pay and Android Pay on all First Glasgow buses.

An area of the parliamentary motion was about service changes and routes being withdrawn or reduced without consultation of local residents. The 4A service quoted has not been altered in terms of service offering or route since October 2016. At that time the service was withdrawn from Knightswood and Kelvindale and now operates from Broomhill – Eaglesham or Newton Mearns via Glasgow City Centre. On the same date, Service X4 was introduced operating from Knightswood – Glasgow city centre. Service M4 was introduced operating between Anniesland and Kelvindale.

First Glasgow Managing Director, Andrew Jarvis, said: “We are modernising our overall ticket offer with a huge expansion of mobile tickets as well as switching on contactless payments across all services in December. The rule of thumb for customers is to switch to mTickets if you haven’t already done so as that is the way to beat the price increases on most of our tickets.

“The unaccompanied child day ticket at £2.10 was replaced by a cheaper child day ticket at £2 or even cheaper at £1.50 on a mobile, whilst weekly kids tickets were also frozen or reduced on mobile. Some family tickets were frozen as well as others reduced, as the Company’s range of products evolves to a changing market.”

 

[Robertj21a]

FGP share price below 100p again.

 

[Volvodart]

Not of their doing, just general stock market fluctuation.

 

[Robertj21a]

Not of their doing, just general stock market fluctuation.

Agreed in part, but still a recent downward trend in the past 2 weeks, not just 2 days. Not a good psychological barrier to drop through, yet again.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agreed in part, but still a recent downward trend in the past 2 weeks, not just 2 days. Not a good psychological barrier to drop through, yet again.

Look at NatEx or Stagecoach over the last month - same if not more of a drop.

FGP now back at 101p

 

[overthewater]

That nice man in the cow pattern shirt yesterday on SKy news made clear the market yo yo effect, its going to be like this while trump is in the white house cutting his idea of red tape and taxes while interest rate are looking skyward.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That nice man in the cow pattern shirt yesterday on SKy news made clear the market yo yo effect, its going to be like this while trump is in the white house cutting his idea of red tape and taxes while interest rate are looking skyward.

More a case that the US (and global) economy is booming so the financial stimulus of low interest rates is now no longer needed and that interest rate increases will be necessary to dampen inflationary pressures.

 

[Dentonian]

In GM takeover talks have been rife ever since the plans for franchising was announced. Transdev were favourites for this but since they bought out Rosso in the territory next door there wouldn't be anything stopping them running us off the road - most of the customers are itching to use their services, whilst we're watching the service changes lists every month. There's been (unconfirmed) rumours that Rosso are shutting their Haslingden depot and since their Rochdale outstation is nothing more than a muddy puddle, they're in the market for a new depot. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together and realise theres a ready, 'out of the box' depot down the road in Bury...

Speaking of Bury, First have been handed a heavy 6-figure fine by TfGM for non-running of services and told in no uncertain terms to reopen Bury or 'they might not get as many routes as they want' in the area.

Its a pretty open market for buyers, and whilst I'd agree with the comments about Stagecoach and CMA approval, there are several big areas where companies have the monopoly - FiG being one that comes to mind.

There my two two penneth anyway

K

I've been out of the country for a few days, so apologies to coming to this point a bit late. Firstly, a "point of order"; Franchising is not actually "planned". It is an option for Bus Reform. All that has been said by the GM Mayor is that the status quo cannot continue. Secondly, whether GM gets franchising, Enhanced Quality Partnerships or something different, it will still be subject to competition laws, and it is not envisaged that a monopoly, or even a duopoly will exist. Indeed, even if franchising is chosen (after a public consultation), there will be a number of seperate Franchises across GM, introduced in stages.
Similarly, there is no way Stagecoach buying First Manchester as a whole would get past the CMA. The only slight possibility is if they bid for Bolton alone. There is a long history of the CMA/OFT seemingly treating Stagecoach more harshly than other large Operators, and going back 25 years, there were different rules for GM than for the rest of de-regulated Britain (especially the West Midlands) when it came to fostering wasteful competition. Of course, that might just have been a power struggle between dictatorial politicians (one in particular?)
As regards Haslingden depot, I believe its only leased and Transdev will have to vacate eventually as Rossendale Council have plans to redevelop the site. I quite agree with your logic regarding the current Bury site.

I'm not sure about TFGM handing out such a massive fine though - or having the power to tell a private company to re-open an OC.

1. TFGM only have power to fine or otherwise sanction companies for poor operation of Tendered services - and £100,000+ would suggest a massive long term failure to run such services.
2. It would have been big news locally, for such a fine to be handed out by any Authority. I'm assured the only similar news whilst I was away was Stott's being the first company (of any industry) to be punished for not setting up a Workplace Pension scheme. As an aside, why was that case handled in Brighton - it must be 250+ miles from Oldham?

 

[Dentonian]

Agreed. South Manchester is without a doubt the better operating territory - for all the reasons quoted plus the large student market. I suspect Stagecoach knew exactly what they were doing in buying GMBN South and not North!!

I know this has been touched on in the Franchising thread, but this is both a generalisation and an interesting "21st century" view in equal measure.
There is a complicated mix of comfortably off and poor throughout GM, often with different communities living "cheek by jowl". For instance, whilst South Manchester is more affluent than the North - and East - of the city, it is really only a band about 2-5 miles south of the city centre eg. Chorlton, Stretford, Didsbury and Withington that is reasonably well off. Continue beyond the M60 into Wythenshawe and you are in the middle of a poverty stricken, large (once classed as the largest in Europe) overspill estate. Similarly, most of the nine boroughs (even Salford) are split between affluent and fairly poor areas; N/E Stockport is poorer than S/W Stockport, whilst N/E Tameside is richer than S/W Tameside and so on....
The "21st century" bit is the bit that I, brought up in the 1970s and 1980s, struggle with. In those days, the affluent were the only people who didn't use buses, so it seems weird to suggest Stagecoach knew what they were doing buying the southern half of GMB on that basis. What I will say is that with Deregulation and other social developments, you would be on stable ground investing in high(er) car ownership areas. In general economic and political terms, money begats money. So, with car ownership being an indicator of affluence, it is those areas that attract the economic attention and of course, politicians chasing floating voters. In terms of long-term congestion, the number of "non" motorists equals the number of *potential* motorists, so its poor areas where congestion is growing fastest. The vicious circle of buses being too expensive or increasingly sparse, and rail being too remote means people could no longer afford *not* to own a car. Yes, we've seen a reversal of sorts in some areas, particularly young, city centre dwellers, but that only hides continuing growth in the poor suburbs who are constantly ignored by politicians, anyway.
Getting back to the original conclusion, though. Back in 1995 when GMS & GMBN sold out to Stagecoach and First, it is true that Stagecoach got most of the highly profitable depots (eg. Hyde Road, Stockport and Princess Road), whilst First only had Bolton making decent money - which makes that town's decline even more lamentable. Oldham wasn't too bad but the rot had set in and Queens Road, Bury etc were never that great anyway.

 

[Dentonian]

Back in 1995 when GMS & GMBN sold out to Stagecoach and First, it is true that Stagecoach got most of the highly profitable depots (eg. Hyde Road, Stockport and Princess Road), whilst First only had Bolton making decent money - which makes that town's decline even more lamentable. Oldham wasn't too bad but the rot had set in and Queens Road, Bury etc were never that great anyway.

Wow! My comments about Bolton have proved prophetic. Even though registration deadline isn't until the weekend, its been revealed that First are withdrawing two services in the town from 8th April. Both are long standing, historically "bread and butter" routes. One is the 575 which apart from a loop round an estate above Horwich is in competition with Arriva - so potentially good news for them. The other is the 571/2 Great Lever circulars which was always regarded as a core local service, which currently run every 10 minutes (combined). This to me, looks like the first stage of an exit strategy.

 

[overthewater]

Wait a min isn't it Bury that was the problem not Bolton? I had to go and look at a map.. and the 571/2 goes past the depot???

 

[winston270twm]

Sorry to hear that (about Carillion and your work). As for shares, I also have some in Balfour Beatty so perhaps they may profit from Carillion's demise.... is that blind hope speaking

I think there's a lot of people out there that will have got burnt by the Carillion collapse both sub contractors & Investors, It seems BOD weren't very open & honest with the state the company was in. You should be fine with Balfour Betty, they've already had their wobble & bounced back.

Have you seen that Diamond North West have already registered a new commercial service to replace the First Manchester 575 that is withdrawn from in April, I knew 4 x B7RLE/Wright were heading to DBNW redundant from withdrawal of Hallmark 461, never expected a new commercial route:

PC0004417/270
DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED
575 Bolton Interchange
Horwich, Old Lords Estate
8th April 2018

https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.s...ls/515371/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think there's a lot of people out there that will have got burnt by the Carillion collapse both sub contractors & Investors, It seems BOD weren't very open & honest with the state the company was in. You should be fine with Balfour Betty, they've already had their wobble & bounced back.

Have you seen that Diamond North West have already registered a new commercial service to replace the First Manchester 575 that is withdrawn from in April, I knew 4 x B7RLE/Wright were heading to DBNW redundant from withdrawal of Hallmark 461, never expected a new commercial route:

PC0004417/270
DIAMOND BUS (NORTH WEST) LIMITED
575 Bolton Interchange
Horwich, Old Lords Estate
8th April 2018

https://www.vehicle-operator-licensing.s...ls/515371/

Confess the 461 had passed me by - you’re my Rotala “go to guy”. They’ll be ex Wessex Eclipses?

Not been to Manchester for a while so intrigued to see how Rotala NW are progressing

 

[Dentonian]

Wait a min isn't it Bury that was the problem not Bolton? I had to go and look at a map.. and the 571/2 goes past the depot???

It does indeed pass the depot, so that will add crew relief costs to other services and doubtless increase poor punctuality even further. I think its the whole company that is the "problem", with Bury depot being closed largely due to Redevelopment plans (which I believe have fallen through!), rather than it being any worse than other depots.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It does indeed pass the depot, so that will add crew relief costs to other services and doubtless increase poor punctuality even further. I think its the whole company that is the "problem", with Bury depot being closed largely due to Redevelopment plans (which I believe have fallen through!), rather than it being any worse than other depots.

Bury was perhaps not the problem in terms of services but it was a very expensive depot to maintain and on a site ripe for development. Bet the business rates were substantial.

 

[winston270twm]

Confess the 461 had passed me by - you’re my Rotala “go to guy”. They’ll be ex Wessex Eclipses?

Not been to Manchester for a while so intrigued to see how Rotala NW are progressing

Yes, 62 or 13 plate originally ex Wessex Wright Eclipse, I think it was inevitable that the 461 Surrey route wouldn't be able to support both Abellio & Hallmark.

I understand that Diamond NW have submitted commercial registrations replacing further First Manchester services over & above just the 575. Yet people say running buses in Manchester isn't attractive what with the threat of Quality Contracts hanging over commercial operators heads.....

 

[Dentonian]

Bury was perhaps not the problem in terms of services but it was a very expensive depot to maintain and on a site ripe for development. Bet the business rates were substantial.

I might be wrong but I interpreted previous posts mentioning "problems" as referring to Punctuality/Reliability. Partly because this has been mentioned on other forums, and various local papers. As such, it is something affecting the whole of First Manchester, and whilst there had seemed to be a slight improvement in recent years, it is believed that it has deteriorated badly with the closure of both Bury and Tameside depots, combined with the reported removal of ALL front line Supervision at the same time. This latter development in particular has led to a further deterioration in relations between the Operators and TFGM/C after First unilaterally terminated cross city services near Shudehill due to gridlock caused by roadworks to do with redeveloping the old BBC HQ. First did this without warning and passengers turfed off buses nearly rioted in Shudehill Interchange, threatening TFGM staff. First's attitude was that they communicated the decision to terminate north of the city centre to passengers....................on Twitter!!!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I might be wrong but I interpreted previous posts mentioning "problems" as referring to Punctuality/Reliability. Partly because this has been mentioned on other forums, and various local papers. As such, it is something affecting the whole of First Manchester, and whilst there had seemed to be a slight improvement in recent years, it is believed that it has deteriorated badly with the closure of both Bury and Tameside depots, combined with the reported removal of ALL front line Supervision at the same time. This latter development in particular has led to a further deterioration in relations between the Operators and TFGM/C after First unilaterally terminated cross city services near Shudehill due to gridlock caused by roadworks to do with redeveloping the old BBC HQ. First did this without warning and passengers turfed off buses nearly rioted in Shudehill Interchange, threatening TFGM staff. First's attitude was that they communicated the decision to terminate north of the city centre to passengers....................on Twitter!!!

Think we're at crossed purposes. Probably my fault - thought it was about culling services but happy to concede culpability for confusing things