First Group: General Discussion

[Jordan Adam]

As i said above it's impossible to know if there will be a 3 or 4 week strike right now, We won't know for sure until later next week.

 

[lincman]

First Manchester have issued a press release stating that any Concessionary pass that does not register on a ticket machine will have to pay full fare. Is this just for Manchester or does it apply to all operations

 

[mde]

First Manchester have issued a press release stating that any Concessionary pass that does not register on a ticket machine will have to pay full fare. Is this just for Manchester or does it apply to all operations

It's certainly the case in Scotland with a NEC that fails - unless the customer hands over their card and takes a 7 day temporary ticket. https://www.firstgroup.com/greater-glasgow/tickets/ticket-types/concessions

 

[Dentonian]

First Manchester have issued a press release stating that any Concessionary pass that does not register on a ticket machine will have to pay full fare. Is this just for Manchester or does it apply to all operations

Presumably, this is badly worded with typical industry assumption that their machines couldn't possibly fail to work properly. Result will be conflict between elderly/disabled passengers and drivers, a PR disaster waiting to happen. In saying that, my understanding is that in GM so far, it has been Stagecoach pass readers that are far more problematic than First's.

 

[GusB]

It's certainly the case in Scotland with a NEC that fails - unless the customer hands over their card and takes a 7 day temporary ticket. https://www.firstgroup.com/greater-glasgow/tickets/ticket-types/concessions

Is there no way to manually ring through a concession fare if the machine doesn't read the card? Surely the first option would be for the driver to manually check the card to see if it is valid, and then issue the ticket with advice that if the card continues to fail they should follow the steps given in the above link. It may well turn out that other concession cards fail, in which case it's the ticket machine which requires attention.

• Give the card to the First driver who will ensure it is returned to Transport Scotland. The driver will then issue the customer with a 7 day concessionary pass that can be used on First services in your local area.

This isn't much use if you have a card which you intend to use with another operator to make further journeys.

 

[overthewater]

There still plenty of times the card dont work with a machine and the driver just let the people on.

 

[lincman]

Presumably, this is badly worded with typical industry assumption that their machines couldn't possibly fail to work properly. Result will be conflict between elderly/disabled passengers and drivers, a PR disaster waiting to happen. In saying that, my understanding is that in GM so far, it has been Stagecoach pass readers that are far more problematic than First's.

I am not a resident of Greater Manchester, and as such my pass was not issued there, but having family in the Manchester area I had cause to use the buses in that area last week. One of my journeys required the use of 2 buses the first a Stagecoach service which my pass worked, on the first bus the pass did not work the driver did allow me to travel but seeing I was from out of the area pointed me in the direction of the press release. Having looked further even in circumstances such as this where I had a ticket from the Stagecoach bus showing my pass valid, I would still have to pay on the First bus, as you say a PR disaster waiting to happen.

 

[KendalKing]

First Manchester have issued a press release stating that any Concessionary pass that does not register on a ticket machine will have to pay full fare. Is this just for Manchester or does it apply to all operations

This is the same as Stagecoach in Cumbria

 

[KendalKing]

There still plenty of times the card dont work with a machine and the driver just let the people on.

As a former driver, if machine didn't read the card, I use to check that it was in date, then override the machine to issue ticket.

 

[Dentonian]

There still plenty of times the card dont work with a machine and the driver just let the people on.

I assume what the Press Release is saying is that drivers have been given strict instructions NOT to let people on after 1st April. They could have waited a week, though. That way there would have been many thousands less passengers to argue with as they are pulling off four major routes.

 

[Observer]

This isn't much use if you have a card which you intend to use with another operator to make further journeys.

The 7 day pass is supposed to be accepted by all operators as they all should have the option on their machines to issue them. If they aren't being issued or accepted then that needs to be taken up with Transport Scotland.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I can't say I've ever seen a driver turn down a concession pass holder because the machine failed to read the ticket. Normally they just let them on.

 

[mde]

Is there no way to manually ring through a concession fare if the machine doesn't read the card? Surely the first option would be for the driver to manually check the card to see if it is valid, and then issue the ticket with advice that if the card continues to fail they should follow the steps given in the above link. It may well turn out that other concession cards fail, in which case it's the ticket machine which requires attention.

I believe there is - but - checking dates on the cards isn't foolproof, they aren't very difficult to copy as there's limited security features from a visual perspective, and, a card can be invalidated for fraud/re-issues etc.

E.g. I have two cards, both are technically in-date, but, only the newest one will work as it's a re-issue of the first owing to a change in entitlement. For older folks the new cards don't have an expiry date, but, again, they could be invalidated at any time if Transport Scotland / the council / SPT decided they were being misused / reported lost / for other reasons.

 

[mde]

I can't say I've ever seen a driver turn down a concession pass holder because the machine failed to read the ticket. Normally they just let them on.

Neither have I across several operators… First's Almex machines were terrible at reading the cards reliably - the new Ticketer ones seem to be a bit better, but, the end-to-end process is still too slow.

 

[lincman]

Neither have I across several operators… First's Almex machines were terrible at reading the cards reliably - the new Ticketer ones seem to be a bit better, but, the end-to-end process is still too slow.

I have to say this has never happened to me either, but we shall have to wait and see what happens after April 1st. The question I have is who does the onus fall on, the operator to ensure the reader is working or the pass holder to ensure the chip is readable.

 

[robertclark125]

This happened to my mum a couple of years ago on Stagecoach East Scotland, and she was given a seven day temporary pass by the driver, and a form to fill in and either post or hand into a council office and a new one would be issued. Mum posted hers, and got the new pass in 3 days.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Looking at it from both sides:

If a holder has a faulty pass, and is always allowed on the bus, they have no incentive to get it replaced, or look after it in the first place.
If an operator accepts the holder with a faulty pass will they get reimbursed for that journey - have Greater Manchester tightened their rules which the operator is just passing on to the customer?
If an operator has a faulty machine, why should the holder be penalised, or inconvenienced by waiting for the next bus.

How much is a replacement pass, how easy are they to obtain (in person locally, some distance, or by post) and how long would it take? Also how easy is it to 'damage' the pass making it unreadable? Too close to a magnet, mobile phone, bank cards etc.

As many seem to (pretend to) fail to understand locally, it is the presentation of a valid ENCTS pass which entitles you to free travel, not merely being old enough.

As an aside, First Conditions of Carriage state that, for a fare payer, even if a ticket cannot be issued you still have to pay the fare! Interesting if you want a day ticket! In the old days the book of 'emergency tickets' came out, following which a very slow journey ensued as each ticket was hand written!

 

[Dentonian]

Looking at it from both sides:

As an aside, First Conditions of Carriage state that, for a fare payer, even if a ticket cannot be issued you still have to pay the fare! Interesting if you want a day ticket! !

Eh? Are you saying First demand the right to take your fare and NOT issue a ticket (ie. receipt). Having taken your money (and probably put it into the driver's back pocket, I was going to say, what would stop an Inspector getting on, and throwing a passenger off the bus because they can't prove they have paid? I then remembered; First Manchester have NO inspectorate function, as it was disbanded with the closure of Bury and Duky depots.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Eh? Are you saying First demand the right to take your fare and NOT issue a ticket (ie. receipt). Having taken your money (and probably put it into the driver's back pocket, I was going to say, what would stop an Inspector getting on, and throwing a passenger off the bus because they can't prove they have paid? I then remembered; First Manchester have NO inspectorate function, as it was disbanded with the closure of Bury and Duky depots.

Yes, that's what the T & C say.
You have the same suspicions as me regarding back pockets.
It would be interesting to know if drivers have received the same instruction! Slam, bang, oh dear my ticket machine is broken! Kerching.
Having made that awful slur on all bus drivers I must say I haven't seen any dodgy actions by First drivers for a good while e.g. retrieving uncollected tickets and immediate cancellation. On the last occasion I travelled where the ticket machine was broken and unfixable we were all waved on without payment - which is how it should be. As for inspectors, haven't seen one on a bus in The Potteries for years.

As for throwing off, far better to charge the 'standard fare' of £100 was it!

 

[Dentonian]

Yes, that's what the T & C say.
You have the same suspicions as me regarding back pockets.
It would be interesting to know if drivers have received the same instruction! Slam, bang, oh dear my ticket machine is broken! Kerching.
Having made that awful slur on all bus drivers I must say I haven't seen any dodgy actions by First drivers for a good while e.g. retrieving uncollected tickets and immediate cancellation. On the last occasion I travelled where the ticket machine was broken and unfixable we were all waved on without payment - which is how it should be. As for inspectors, haven't seen one on a bus in The Potteries for years.

As for throwing off, far better to charge the 'standard fare' of £100 was it!

I've certainly never heard of it happening on First, but it is/was a regular accusation levelled at drivers of certain smaller companies running TFGM tendered services - along with drivers having one hand on the wheel whilst eating sarnies with the other. One such company no longer exists but unfortunately (assuming the accusations are true) another seems to be going from strength to strength in the tendered market.

 

[lincman]

I've certainly never heard of it happening on First, but it is/was a regular accusation levelled at drivers of certain smaller companies running TFGM tendered services - along with drivers having one hand on the wheel whilst eating sarnies with the other. One such company no longer exists but unfortunately (assuming the accusations are true) another seems to be going from strength to strength in the tendered market.

I have no wish for this thread to in any way cast doubts on the integrity of hard working honest bus drivers, to me it seems that this is showing the need for First bus to get every last penny, whether it is from the PTE or the customer.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

As far as First in The Potteries go. This is a quote from the August 2017 T & C.

4.20 If our ticket equipment is not functioning properly and as a consequence is not able to produce tickets, you must still pay the correct fare for your journey.

They seem pretty standard across all opcos but I haven't checked.

I suppose it depends on the level of non-functionality, it if records the transaction but doesn't produce a ticket that may be viewed as different than having no record at all because it is totally dead.

The taxman will not like that at all! He doesn't like cash payments generally. He especially dislikes cash payments which have no electronic record ie an electronic till (which a ticket machine is) rather than an old fashioned mechanical till, like Arkwright's shop.

 

[lincman]

As far as First in The Potteries go. This is a quote from the August 2017 T & C.

They seem pretty standard across all opcos but I haven't checked.

I suppose it depends on the level of non-functionality, it if records the transaction but doesn't produce a ticket that may be viewed as different than having no record at all because it is totally dead.

The taxman will not like that at all! He doesn't like cash payments generally. He especially dislikes cash payments which have no electronic record ie an electronic till (which a ticket machine is) rather than an old fashioned mechanical till, like Arkwright's shop.

The question remains, I have a valid pass, just because a reader cannot read it does it make it any less valid.

 

[Volvodart]

As a former driver, if machine didn't read the card, I use to check that it was in date, then override the machine to issue ticket.

That is what happens at First Aberdeen, provided the card is valid, and the reason it will not work is not that the card is hotlisted (for instance, the card holder having 2 cards). If the card is faulty, the holder should hand over the card to get the seven day pass. If they refuse to hand over the card, they would have to pay the full fare. I dare say to save the hassle and to give the card holder the benefit of the doubt that it could be the ticket machine, some drivers tell the passenger to take a seat and to try it on the next bus.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The question remains, I have a valid pass, just because a reader cannot read it does it make it any less valid.

Yes, it makes it invalid. The T & C already state:

4.27 If you hold a valid concessionary permit or pass, you must show it to the driver every time you get on one of our vehicles and, where required to do so, you must present the pass to the on-board ticket equipment to ensure its validity. In some areas, you will be issued by the driver with a zero-value ticket when making such a journey, and you must retain this for the duration of your journey. Where applicable, your concessionary permit or pass will not be considered valid if the ticket equipment does not recognise it to be so.

Assuming First in 'the tiny little pocket of Manchester where we used to have a massive empire' T & C are the same. The publicity notice seems merely to be reinforcing an existing point. Perhaps too much use of 'damaged' passes is taking place.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

That is what happens at First Aberdeen, provided the card is valid, and the reason it will not work is not that the card is hotlisted (for instance, the card holder having 2 cards). If the card is faulty, the holder should hand over the card to get the seven day pass. If they refuse to hand over the card, they would have to pay the full fare. I dare say to save the hassle and to give the card holder the benefit of the doubt that it could be the ticket machine, some drivers tell the passenger to take a seat and to try it on the next bus.

Here in Stoke-on-Trent, I was not aware of this seven day temporary ticket procedure. It must be a local thing. I have never seen a pass taken off a passenger, nor a passenger refused travel, although there are arguments regarding the payment of a fare prior to 0930 and after 2300.

 

[lincman]

Here in Stoke-on-Trent, I was not aware of this seven day temporary ticket procedure. It must be a local thing. I have never seen a pass taken off a passenger, nor a passenger refused travel, although there are arguments regarding the payment of a fare prior to 0930 and after 2300.

Here for me here is the crux of the matter, last Week I was in Greater Manchester to travel home I needed to get to Piccadilly Station this requires 2 buses. Both services are operated by First Bus, the first vehicle I travelled on accepted my pass no problem, the second vehicle flashed card invalid, the driver made no fuss and politely allowed me to travel. On arriving back in Lincolnshire I caught the bus from the station my pass was read no problem. My problem with First's T&C's is that it assumes it's equipment is infallible and either the card is faulty or the passenger is attempting a fraudulent journey, just because a particular reader cannot read the chip it does not mean the card is invalid. This is a whole can of worms that will just add to the appalling reputation that First has acquired.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Here for me here is the crux of the matter, last Week I was in Greater Manchester to travel home I needed to get to Piccadilly Station this requires 2 buses. Both services are operated by First Bus, the first vehicle I travelled on accepted my pass no problem, the second vehicle flashed card invalid, the driver made no fuss and politely allowed me to travel. On arriving back in Lincolnshire I caught the bus from the station my pass was read no problem. My problem with First's T&C's is that it assumes it's equipment is infallible and either the card is faulty or the passenger is attempting a fraudulent journey, just because a particular reader cannot read the chip it does not mean the card is invalid. This is a whole can of worms that will just add to the appalling reputation that First has acquired.

The entirety of the T & C are pro First perfection and protection and against any passenger rights. I do wonder if they are actually legal in terms of the 'unfair contract terms act' and upcoming passenger rights enhancements. Given their inability to advertise correct fares; on buses, in publicity, on their website, months after changes have taken effect makes me wonder just which banana republic they wish to emulate.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Yes, that's what the T & C say.
You have the same suspicions as me regarding back pockets.
It would be interesting to know if drivers have received the same instruction! Slam, bang, oh dear my ticket machine is broken! Kerching.
Having made that awful slur on all bus drivers I must say I haven't seen any dodgy actions by First drivers for a good while e.g. retrieving uncollected tickets and immediate cancellation. On the last occasion I travelled where the ticket machine was broken and unfixable we were all waved on without payment - which is how it should be. As for inspectors, haven't seen one on a bus in The Potteries for years.

As for throwing off, far better to charge the 'standard fare' of £100 was it!

Doubt it in this day and age where most buses are chock full of CCTV.

 

[henairs]

Hi,
Just read this article and although I don't live anywhere near Manchester ( sleepy Somerset) I wondered how many folks on here had spotted the date for all this.
April 1st, does that ring any bells then !
Cheers, Mike R