First Group: General Discussion

[Kahuna47]

Afternoon all,

Just thought you may be interested in some rumours over here in GM land...

Oldham apparently have had a sale pulled at the 11th hour - not sure who it was on the cards though.

Bolton's talks are still ongoing at the moment, and theres been talk by Allocators that Vantage may be hived off and ran from Rusholme (where First still apparently have the lease on) - they are currently advertising for Vantage drivers and theres something in the way it's worded (I forget how) that may indicate that this may be possible. A lot of ex-Rusholme drivers went straight onto Vantage block when it closed.

Also, in other news, Arriva in Bolton has apparently had an offer made by Rotala, which will probably stop them buying First. Anyone for Transdev or even an expansion by Go Ahead?

Cheers!

K

 

[ChrisPJ]

Rotala could do with using some of that funding they raised for investment in its existing businesses, rather than buying up market share.

Or in other words, exactly what First should have been doing twenty years ago.

 

[carlberry]

Rotala could do with using some of that funding they raised for investment in its existing businesses, rather than buying up market share.

Or in other words, exactly what First should have been doing twenty years ago.

That dosent look as good on the annual report however.

 

[overthewater]

Afternoon all,
Just thought you may be interested in some rumours over here in GM land... Oldham apparently have had a sale pulled at the 11th hour - not sure who it was on the cards though.

Bolton's talks are still ongoing at the moment, and theres been talk by Allocators that Vantage may be hived off and ran from Rusholme (where First still apparently have the lease on) - they are currently advertising for Vantage drivers and theres something in the way it's worded (I forget how) that may indicate that this may be possible. A lot of ex-Rusholme drivers went straight onto Vantage block when it closed.

Also, in other news, Arriva in Bolton has apparently had an offer made by Rotala, which will probably stop them buying First. Anyone for Transdev or even an expansion by Go Ahead?

Cheers!
K

I wonder who would want Oldham? Why it was canned? Still think Bolton will end up with Transdev but in this fast moving world you can never know. How big is Arriva Bolton? If Arriva does sell it off it would put wind to the sails Arriva UK operations could be broken up..


Maybe nothing new but it's always good to have a record. That Coast Capital spokesman wouldn't no a decent bus service if it ran him over..

and something else..

https://www.ft.com/content/4473a8fa-8692-11e9-97ea-05ac2431f453

FirstGroup hits back at activist shareholder Transport group slams Coast as ‘opportunistic’ after its call for business overhaul Share on Twitter (opens new window) Share on Facebook (opens new window) Share on LinkedIn (opens new window) Save Save to myFT Josh Spero, Transport Correspondent YESTERDAY Print this page2 UK transport company FirstGroup has hit out at the activist shareholder trying to replace most of its board, calling Coast Capital Management an “opportunistic, self-interested player that is only focused on short-term gains”. FirstGroup put out a defiant notice to the stock market, saying Coast, the transport company’s biggest investor with a 10 per cent holding, had plans that were “naive and vague assertions with no specific details around execution”. However, FirstGroup granted Coast the extraordinary general meeting it had requested, scheduled for June 25, to vote on removing six of the current directors and replacing them with seven of the investor’s own nominees. FirstGroup was critical of Coast’s nominees, including former UK transport minister Steven Norris, who it said had not had experience running a private sector bus company of comparable size to the transport group. FirstGroup also said Mr Norris had been chairman of a rail engineering company “for the six years before it went into administration, resulting in pension schemes being placed into the Pension Protection Fund”. Coast said it “strongly disagrees with the claims made by the board of FirstGroup and will respond to these over the coming days”. Last week FirstGroup agreed to sell its Greyhound US coach business as part of an overhaul that Coast had been pushing for. In a wide-ranging review, FirstGroup said it would pursue either a sale, demerger or joint venture for its UK bus business and cautioned that it had concerns with the “current balance of risk and reward” over bidding for more UK rail franchises. The group said it would instead focus on First Student, the biggest provider of school transportation in the US with a fleet of 42,000 buses, and First Transit, a North American bus company. Recommended Lombard Jonathan Ford Don’t expect bonanza from FirstGroup carve-up Matthew Gregory, chief executive, told the Financial Times that FirstGroup was trying to break into the more tech-driven side of transport pioneered by companies such as Uber, whose app brings together additional services from other providers. Mr Gregory said that “whether we write the code . . . or use someone else’s more generic platform”, FirstGroup in the US wanted to integrate its services into apps, giving it greater reach. He added that FirstGroup was testing autonomous vehicles at Texas Southern University. Mr Gregory said there would be “significant friction costs” in splitting up the business, which had five divisions “without any synergies between them”. He dismissed claims by Coast that the company’s property portfolio was worth many times its value in FirstGroup’s accounts, £360m at the end of March 2019. The group’s full-year results, out last week, saw the company record a pre-tax loss of £98m in the year to March 31 2019, as it was hit by impairment charges. That compared with a pre-tax loss of £327m a year earlier.

 

[winston270twm]

Afternoon all,

Just thought you may be interested in some rumours over here in GM land...

Oldham apparently have had a sale pulled at the 11th hour - not sure who it was on the cards though.

Bolton's talks are still ongoing at the moment, and theres been talk by Allocators that Vantage may be hived off and ran from Rusholme (where First still apparently have the lease on) - they are currently advertising for Vantage drivers and theres something in the way it's worded (I forget how) that may indicate that this may be possible. A lot of ex-Rusholme drivers went straight onto Vantage block when it closed.

Also, in other news, Arriva in Bolton has apparently had an offer made by Rotala, which will probably stop them buying First. Anyone for Transdev or even an expansion by Go Ahead?

Cheers!

K

I'd heard that the deal for Oldham had collapsed, but this was around the time of Go-Ahead QS deal.

If there's an option not to take on Vantage, the buyer for Bolton will do well to steer well clear at the price First have bid for the contract.

As for Rotala, Opportunity 'A' in their RNS dated 28th July 2017 was Arriva Manchester in it's entirety - but the deal never proceeded for whatever reason

Relevant extract quoted only:

Opportunity A

· A further strategic acquisition in Manchester that could increase Rotala's bus capacity to 200 vehicles, representing approximately 10 per cent. of the local market

· Cost of acquisition expected to be approximately £4.6 million, (financed through equity and debt)

· Estimated revenue and EBITDA contributions of £11.0 million and £0.9 million in the first full year following completion of such acquisition

http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/rotala/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=182&newsid=896656

I wonder who would want Oldham? Why it was canned? Still think Bolton will end up with Transdev but in this fast moving world you can never know. How big is Arriva Bolton? If Arriva does sell it off it would put wind to the sails Arriva UK operations could be broken up..

Bolton has 90 discs allocated on Arriva North West license, I don't think the actual fleet size is anywhere near that, more circa 45 buses. ​

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm tempted to say 'Anyone but Rotala' - but I guess there must be a worst operator somewhere (or perhaps not).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'd heard that the deal for Oldham had collapsed, but this was around the time of Go-Ahead QS deal.

Bolton has 90 discs allocated on Arriva North West license, I don't think the actual fleet size is anywhere near that, more circa 45 buses. ​

I don't know what the fleet size was when Arriva purchased Blue Bus but it seems to have declined. When I was last there, felt like Arriva's Bolton depot was really the 575 and not much else. When I first visited, it was Stagecoach and they also rented a large yard next door (when vehicles were heavily vandalised one night) but I think they had a lot more tendered and schools work then.

 

[winston270twm]

I don't know what the fleet size was when Arriva purchased Blue Bus but it seems to have declined. When I was last there, felt like Arriva's Bolton depot was really the 575 and not much else. When I first visited, it was Stagecoach and they also rented a large yard next door (when vehicles were heavily vandalised one night) but I think they had a lot more tendered and schools work then.

The original Blue Bus owner still owns Bolton depot, that is also the same person who sold Wigan Coachways to Rotala - Roger Jarvis.

I think Bolton's two main routes are Sapphire route 362 & 575, plus a few less frequent commercial routes then TfGM tenders. Most of the schools & double decker fleet has gone.

I think Bolton Blue Bus was 70+ buses when acquired by Arriva.

 

[Kahuna47]

Sorry about the confusion, I meant Arriva in Manchester, so Bolton and Wythenshawe depots. It'll be a good fit for Diamond without it being too big like First. Arriva in GM has always been an 'odd one out' round these parts and not really enjoyed the success they wanted.

Like I say, this is all rumours, but with the turbulent times going on, it could anyones guess whats gonna happen...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The original Blue Bus owner still owns Bolton depot, that is also the same person who sold Wigan Coachways to Rotala - Roger Jarvis.

I think Bolton's two main routes are Sapphire route 362 & 575, plus a few less frequent commercial routes then TfGM tenders. Most of the schools & double decker fleet has gone.

I think Bolton Blue Bus was 70+ buses when acquired by Arriva.

Didn't know that about the depot.... wonder whatever happened to his son?

Sorry about the confusion, I meant Arriva in Manchester, so Bolton and Wythenshawe depots. It'll be a good fit for Diamond without it being too big like First. Arriva in GM has always been an 'odd one out' round these parts and not really enjoyed the success they wanted.

Arriva's presence in Greater Manchester has always seemed to be inconsistent, perhaps born out of the slightly haphazard way that Drawlane/British Bus developed. When I moved there (1998), they had the Wythenshawe base plus Hulme Hall Road (which later moved to a very dodgy place behind Piccadilly Station) and they were clearing out the old fleet of Nationals and Olympians with new Darts and B10BLEs. They also had a core of decent services out into Trafford. Buying Blue Bus seemed a strange move but didn't know if it was a defensive thing but since then, the operations have declined and with the closure of the Manchester depot.

First had a fleet of ageing elderly deckers (Atlanteans and Olympians) with some high quality fleet to "Gold" standard on key corridors - bit like today with Vantage (but without the guide wheels)!

 

[Jordan Adam]

RouteOne has this rather interesting article... It looks like things could progress quite quickly (or not).

https://www.route-one.net/articles/..._likely_as_group_focuses_on_North_America_ops

First UK Bus sale is likely as group focus shifts
‘Separation’ process begins as conclusion reached that UK Bus has ‘limited synergies’ with rest of group

FirstGroup has signalled the likely sale of its UK Bus arm, although it says the development is not a result of concerted pressure from New York-based activist shareholder Coast Capital Management.

In a strategy update from CEO Matthew Gregory at the same time that the group’s annual results to 31 March were revealed, FirstGroup confirmed that it is pursuing “structural alternatives to separate our First Bus operations.”

The separation has been “many months in the making,” and it is part of the group’s plan to focus on its North American First Student and First Transit operations. Sale of the Greyhound subsidiary there has already commenced.

Although UK Bus margins improved to 7.5% in 2019, First says that it has “limited synergies with our other operations.” Separation will allow continuation on the path towards increased profitability in UK Bus and deliver value to shareholders, it adds.

Little definite is known about what the separation process, which is at its early stages, will entail. A senior figure within First UK Bus has suggested that it will become clearer in coming weeks. No suggestion has been made that First will close any of its UK Bus subsidiaries.

In a statement to staff, UK Bus MD Giles Fearnley says: “First Bus leads the industry in many areas, notably technology. That puts us on a much stronger footing, and I believe that this is the right time to pursue alternative options that will provide the best possible future for the business.

“Our commitment to our customers, local authority partners and our suppliers does not change. Nothing in our strategy, plans or expectations has. It is very much business as usual.” First says that “the vast majority” of employees of Greyhound and UK Bus are likely to stay with those businesses once the processes are complete.

 

[winston270twm]

Sorry about the confusion, I meant Arriva in Manchester, so Bolton and Wythenshawe depots. It'll be a good fit for Diamond without it being too big like First. Arriva in GM has always been an 'odd one out' round these parts and not really enjoyed the success they wanted.

Like I say, this is all rumours, but with the turbulent times going on, it could anyones guess whats gonna happen...

As I said earlier, Rotala were previously in discussions with Arriva about buying all of Arriva Manchester, but that was nearly two years ago & nothing came of it.

 

[overthewater]

I can see First selling off parts with claws being included with " underperforming areas" as bolt ons to help move everything. But were been here before, First said it would not refuse any sinceable offer, but it would seem no one has been sinceable.

RouteOne has this rather interesting article... It looks like things could progress quite quickly (or not).

https://www.route-one.net/articles/..._likely_as_group_focuses_on_North_America_ops

 

[lastbus]

RouteOne has this rather interesting article... It looks like things could progress quite quickly (or not).

https://www.route-one.net/articles/..._likely_as_group_focuses_on_North_America_ops

Was told by someone normally in the know that first wouldn’t have made the announcement without a buyer/buyers being in talks already.

 

[KendalKing]

When I moved there (1998), they had the Wythenshawe base plus Hulme Hall Road (which later moved to a very dodgy place behind Piccadilly Station) and they were clearing out the old fleet of Nationals and Olympians with new Darts and B10BLEs. They also had a core of decent services out into Trafford.

Every time I visited Hulme Hall Road depot, it was a different operator!

I use to park-up at the Arriva depot, behind Piccadilly Station when I was in Manchester on a Private Hire.

 

[Bradley]

If it does happen who will take over Buses Of Somerset like Taunton Bridgwater Yeovil areas and also First Weymouth.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Was told by someone normally in the know that first wouldn’t have made the announcement without a buyer/buyers being in talks already.

I'd be inclined to agree with them. I was expecting maybe we'd heard something 6-12 months from now, however the article gives me the impression we may be hearing some big news in weeks rather than months.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Every time I visited Hulme Hall Road depot, it was a different operator!

Was the Hulme Hall Road depot the one where North Western operated from and were the Bee Line Buzz minibuses ever based there?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

I'd be inclined to agree with them. I was expecting maybe we'd heard something 6-12 months from now, however the article gives me the impression we may be hearing some big news in weeks rather than months.

Best place to check is the stock market. As with any company that floats on the markets, they've got to announce it to them and the shareholders before it's made public.

 

[DragonEast]

I just love the constant repetition of the joke about First being leaders in the use of technology, and how it gives them the edge in the bus market. Do they think no-one else is using technology? Every operator has their own solution. What magic dust does First Bus offer? This idea that tech is the answer to the maiden's prayer is so last century (a bit like First's buses, perhaps?).

I still incline to the view "once bitten, twice shy" for the stock market. I thought though the money looking for a home was to be found in the Far East; but I'm not sure they're too keen on throwing good money after bad, either.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I'm not sure if you'll agree with me, but it always seems that the public constantly demand a better bus service, yet equally as constantly reject or oppose any measure that could see improved public transport.

For example say a new bus lane was built, the public would moan and say it should be en extra lane for cars as this would ease congestion, the reality is bus lanes reduce congestion and speed up travel time for public transport, additional car lanes attract more cars! I don't think fully "banning" cars from the city centre is the answer, but there needs to be some sort of compromise if we really want to reduce emissions.

It would be interesting if anyone could find any recent statistics for Park & Ride use in the UK, certainly from my personal experience in Aberdeen the park and rides are effectively dead, two of the three are now down to a half hourly frequency and there's no dedicated park and ride routes anymore. On the other hand it seems the sites in Fife are now at max capacity.

Its always good to here more people opting to support reducing congestion and trying to help the environment by using public transport, but the modern way of life is certainly full of car centric individuals, its almost as if the government at times are lobbying for more motoring space whilst simultaneously sprouting about the environment and the impact that it has on full fall on Public Transport etc

 

[Gingerbus1991]

They've reduced it, having just checked i was right in thinking it was £20 in 2018.

Don't have anything against Lothian, albeit i dislike some of their recent ventures especially wasting money on those Streetairs and the managements "bullying" nature both with the workforce and the way they sometimes operate (forcing others out the way). i have however said many times that Edinburgh probably has the best bus network coverage in the UK and on the whole Lothian's maintenance is above par. The comment was partially sarcastic.

I think the streetair electrics are a great concept for both image, PR and political reasons but they struggled with the range, the rumour was that they did not achieve the range that was sprouted to them by Wrights.

The better way forward would've been to use opportunity charging pylons at clermiston terminus but again initial costs to do that flattens the idea.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Was the Hulme Hall Road depot the one where North Western operated from and were the Bee Line Buzz minibuses ever based there?

I think.....Hulme Hall Road was the original North Western but when it was diced up, that depot passed with the coaching to National Travel (West).

That operation was folded into Ribble and became their base for bus ops won in Manchester. They bought Bee Line from BET, were in turn bought by Stagecoach who then disposed of Hulme Hall Road to Drawlane. It became Bee Line but under the control of the 1986 North Western.

Think that’s it.

 

[winston270twm]

Was told by someone normally in the know that first wouldn’t have made the announcement without a buyer/buyers being in talks already.

It wouldn't surprise me, we all know that First have been in discussions with various groups since well before the first Manchester depot sale announcement.

 

[overthewater]

It wouldn't surprise me, we all know that First have been in discussions with various groups since well before the first Manchester depot sale announcement.

It will all come down to how baldy does first want rid and how much are companies really willing to pay, and one would hope have a clear idea how to solve the pensions.

 

[KendalKing]

Was the Hulme Hall Road depot the one where North Western operated from and were the Bee Line Buzz minibuses ever based there?

Yes, that the one! I think everybody must have operated from there at some point.

From memory there been National Travel (West), Ribble, Bee Line Buzz, North Western, and Arriva.
I am sure there's been more..........

 

[daodao]

As I said earlier, Rotala were previously in discussions with Arriva about buying all of Arriva Manchester, but that was nearly two years ago & nothing came of it.

Arriva Manchester (Wythenshawe) is now a tiny operation, with just 4 routes, all running north out of Altrincham (19/19A, 245, 247 and 263). The residual 130 is now run from Macclesfield and the 10 from Bolton. These 4 routes would fit with Rotala's current tendered operations in South Trafford, but as with all tendered services, they could easily be lost if undercut by another bidder when next tendered.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, that the one! I think everybody must have operated from there at some point.

From memory there been National Travel (West), Ribble, Bee Line Buzz, North Western, and Arriva.
I am sure there's been more..........

Mentioned it above

North Western RCC, NT West, Ribble (independent), Bee Line Buzz, Ribble (Stagecoach), North Western (Drawlane/British Bus), Arriva

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As a aside, we were visiting Manchester yesterday and saw one of the former First buses from Queens Road depot in the Shudehill area with a large oblong vinyl sticker along the side stating Go North West.

 

[Kahuna47]

As a aside, we were visiting Manchester yesterday and saw one of the former First buses from Queens Road depot in the Shudehill area with a large oblong vinyl sticker along the side stating Go North West.

It was a bit of a rush job over Saturday night - looks very odd but it does the job! According to their twitter feed (as excellent as you'd expect from Go Ahead!) they're sending a couple of buses a week up to Thornton Brothers in Northumberland for a full refurb, starting with a Volvo B5 first by the looks of it.

It's amusing how many passengers were complaining that they're still sitting on the same old sheds First had and we're expecting brand new, all singing and dancing vehicles straight out on the Sunday morning!