First Group: General Discussion

[158756]

So which routes do Rotala get? Presumably all those serving Bolton and the Bury-Ramsbottom routes, does Bolton have the 163 as well?

 

[winston270twm]

I would hope that the Board will make every effort to press ahead with any sales that they can achieve - somehow/anyhow. That might be one way of quietening down some of the shareholders. However, we're only back to much the same situation as it's been for a long time already - First want to sell (anything), but nobody wants to buy (at anything above 'fire sale' prices).

Problem is, look how little selling Bolton depot has actually raised, it's pocket change to First Group. Granted they will have circa 125 midlife buses to cascade around group within 2 years, that's assuming First still have a UK Bus division??? In terms of large purchases, Arriva is a far more attractive proposition as a bulk buy. I'd expect some of the First crown jewels from UK bus to achieve much higher prices, but at the same time, they'll also be losing the profit contributions.....

 

[njlawley]

So which routes do Rotala get? Presumably all those serving Bolton and the Bury-Ramsbottom routes, does Bolton have the 163 as well?

163 is indeed a BN route.

As for Rusholme, was that included in the sale as I heard it was leased from EYMS and so is no owned by Go Ahead?

 

[WatcherZero]

Rotala are moving their HQ to Bolton Depot.

As mentioned First board won the battle but lost the war, they defeated the activist shareholder on board elections (probably helped by their pick to lead First changing his mind) but the size of the revolt and who the revolters were made them see the writing was on the wall so the chief quit and they agreed to adopt some of the activist demands over strategy if not structure.

 

[winston270twm]

Rotala are moving their HQ to Bolton Depot.

Not quite, Bolton will become the new North West HQ, (suppose Deepdale Rd, Preston is currently used for some of those functions). Rotala's PLC HQ is staying at Diamond Bus, Tividale Depot, West Midlands.

 

[Volvodart]

Rotala are moving their HQ to Bolton Depot.

As mentioned First board won the battle but lost the war, they defeated the activist shareholder on board elections (probably helped by their pick to lead First changing his mind) but the size of the revolt and who the revolters were made them see the writing was on the wall so the chief quit and they agreed to adopt some of the activist demands over strategy if not structure.

I think the concerns are if the board will carry out what they say they will achieve and the prices they shall obtain if/when Greyhound and UK bus are sold. Obviously, to the outsider, the relatively low price obtained today will not have helped.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think the concerns are if the board will carry out what they say they will achieve and the prices they shall obtain if/when Greyhound and UK bus are sold. Obviously, to the outsider, the relatively low price obtained today will not have helped.

Depends how much of an asset impairment they have to absorb though maybe that's mitigated slightly by the lease and return for much of the fleet.

However, and not wishing to labour the point, First Manchester was losing a small fortune as we know (and was getting worse). They will have wanted to staunch those losses but elsewhere, there's only First South Yorkshire that is really losing big bucks (and those losses reduced). Now if someone wants to pay what First want/need for an OpCo, that's one thing but the reality is that if they try to sell off much of UK Bus, it's unlikely that they will make any money so hence it's more likely that a spin off or sale as one lump is more likely.

 

[winston270twm]

Depends how much of an asset impairment they have to absorb though maybe that's mitigated slightly by the lease and return for much of the fleet.

However, and not wishing to labour the point, First Manchester was losing a small fortune as we know (and was getting worse). They will have wanted to staunch those losses but elsewhere, there's only First South Yorkshire that is really losing big bucks (and those losses reduced). Now if someone wants to pay what First want/need for an OpCo, that's one thing but the reality is that if they try to sell off much of UK Bus, it's unlikely that they will make any money so hence it's more likely that a spin off or sale as one lump is more likely.

It may do, but if First sell UK bus, there's not going to be a great need for the vehicles being returned & cascaded, plus there's not much of a second hand market for older used buses. More & more are switching to buying only new Euro 6.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It may do, but if First sell UK bus, there's not going to be a great need for the vehicles being returned & cascaded, plus there's not much of a second hand market for older used buses. More & more are switching to buying only new Euro 6.

Talking only about Bolton!

 

[Volvodart]

However, and not wishing to labour the point, First Manchester was losing a small fortune as we know (and was getting worse). They will have wanted to staunch those losses but elsewhere, there's only First South Yorkshire that is really losing big bucks (and those losses reduced). Now if someone wants to pay what First want/need for an OpCo, that's one thing but the reality is that if they try to sell off much of UK Bus, it's unlikely that they will make any money so hence it's more likely that a spin off or sale as one lump is more likely.

All the outsider will see is that they appear to have taken a loss of around £6 million on Queens Road and written off around £10 million on the remaining Manchester depots for an income of around £16 million so far for the 2 sales that they have announced (although they are/were expecting to get a similar amount again from somewhere).

 

[winston270twm]

Glasgow City Council following Aberdeen in proposing to buy out First Glasgow:

Glasgow City Council approves motion aiming to buy out First Bus
The emergency motion was brought forward by Labour and unanimously agreed

By Isaac Callan

• 16:09, 27 JUN 2019
• Updated17:33, 27 JUN 2019

News

First bus in George Square
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Glasgow City Council have today backed an emergency motion to explore the option of taking the city’s buses into public ownership.

As reported by Glasgow Live, a petition calling for the council to buy First Bus hit more than 3,500 signatures after it was announced that the American transport provider was selling its UK operations.
The emergency motion was brought before the council today, where it was unanimously passed after negotiations between all political groups.

The next stage will be for council officers to begin discussions with First Group, SPT and other national transport providers to explore how a locally owned bus service could be brought to the city.

Campaigners regularly point to Transport for Edinburgh’s Lothian Buses as an example of how locally owned transport can operate in a comprehensive and cost efficient model.

The motion was brought by the Labour Party, whose Glasgow Transport Spokesperson Matt Kerr said: “This is a step-change in public transport planning in Glasgow. I am delighted that we were able to work across party lines to come to an agreement, to make clear that bus provision is just not good enough. Now we have a real opportunity to go further and faster to deliver a transport network suitable for a truly 21st century, European, metropolitan city.

“I’d like to thank campaigners at Get Glasgow Moving and others for pushing on this, and for those across the City Chamber for working so constructively on this issue.”

However, the amended motion does also offer a word of caution, making it clear that this is an early stage in the process.

The motion reads: “Council further notes, however, that making progress on any such discussions would involve sensitive commercial negotiations.

“Council therefore resolves to allow officers the necessary space to continue to explore this matter before reporting back to the Transport Delivery Steering Group, building on successful examples of working groups in recent months at the earliest opportunity to update on negotiations, noting that the democratic approval of Councillors will determine any decision to proceed.”

Speaking to Glasgow Live about the news, Ellie Morrison, the Chair of Get Glasgow Moving, said: “We obviously think our petition has ramped up pressure on the council. We’re really pleased that they’re going to seize this opportunity. Hopefully they can find a way to make this happen and bring the city’s buses back into public ownership.

“One thing we will be pushing is Glasgow City Council working with other local authorities through SPT. This isn’t something they can do on their own and SPT was set up to help integrate travel through the Glasgow work and travel area.

“Hopefully this will give us an opportunity to fill in the gaps in the transport network.”

Councillor Anna Richardson, City Convener for Sustainability and Carbon Reduction of the City Government for Glasgow City Council, added:“As soon as we were notified several weeks ago of First Group’s intention to sell First Bus, we commenced discussions with relevant stakeholders about what a bid to operate our own bus services could involve.

“Those discussions will continue and expand in the weeks and months ahead to allow us to get a proper handle on First’s plans, the feasibility and affordability of a council-owned bus service and the detail involved in the various options which may emerge. All the while we need to be minded of both the democratic wish of the whole Council Chamber and the commercial sensitivities around any discussions.

https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/glasgow-city-council-approves-motion-16497882

All the outsider will see is that they appear to have taken a loss of around £6 million on Queens Road and written off around £10 million on the remaining Manchester depots for an income of around £16 million so far for the 2 sales that they have announced (although they are/were expecting to get a similar amount again from somewhere).

I don't suppose it will be long before Coast come back at the board for round two, potentially from a different angle / even ridiculing the above. Wonder if there's any mileage in Coast and the other top shareholders that voted in favour of overthrowing half the board forming a consortium to buyout First Group and take it private to breakup ? They already own 30% of FGP between them. ​

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Glasgow City Council following Aberdeen in proposing to buy out First Glasgow:


https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/glasgow-city-council-approves-motion-16497882

I don't suppose it will be long before Coast come back at the board for round two, potentially from a different angle / even ridiculing the above. Wonder if there's any mileage in Coast and the other top shareholders that voted in favour of overthrowing half the board forming a consortium to buyout First Group and take it private to breakup ? They already own 30% of FGP between them. ​

Would the council taking over be a good thing or no? I’m not really sure how that would work with the Lanarkshire and Dumbarton divisions also... would they be broken up?

 

[smtglasgow]

Can’t see how you could split First Glasgow 1 and 2 these days – too many city corridors covered by Dumbarton, Blantyre & Overtown. And the idea that Glasgow City Council have the money to buy, run and invest in a bus company is madness. Glasgow has the same issues as all other councils and is now faced (quite rightly) with financing the equal pay settlement. There is no money for playing at buses.

 

[Volvodart]

It would complicate things if other councils are to be involved too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Glasgow has the same issues as all other councils and is now faced (quite rightly) with financing the equal pay settlement.

That's a good point. Had a quick check - they had to raise £548m through sale and lease back of assets!!!

 

[Robertj21a]

Can’t see how you could split First Glasgow 1 and 2 these days – too many city corridors covered by Dumbarton, Blantyre & Overtown. And the idea that Glasgow City Council have the money to buy, run and invest in a bus company is madness. Glasgow has the same issues as all other councils and is now faced (quite rightly) with financing the equal pay settlement. There is no money for playing at buses.

It seems like just another crazy notion from politicians who haven't a clue, let alone any money to pay for it.

 

[Kahuna47]

Staff notice uploaded today RE: Vantage etc.

Dear colleagues
Following yesterday’s announcement regarding the intended sale of Bolton depot, I wanted to share further news regarding the proposed plans for the services and support functions, outlined below, that will remain with First Manchester once the Bolton depot transfers to Rotala.
• Vantage, Yellow School Bus, and tendered services.
• The training school function, and those members of the training team who
support the wider Manchester team.

It is proposed these services and functions will be re-located to the former Rusholme depot site. This site was closed some time ago and has remained part of the First Manchester estate. We propose to re-open the site and relocate colleagues who work for these services and functions to Rusholme. All other elements of these services will remain unchanged. This does also not affect the terms and conditions of colleagues who work for these services.
We will be consulting with the trade union and employee representatives of all those
impacted by this change in the next few weeks as to what this means for them and
the expected timeline for this change.
I appreciate yesterday’s news will still be sinking in, and I would as ever encourage
you to keep talking to your line manager, your Trade Union reps and supporting each other through this period of change.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Staff notice uploaded today RE: Vantage etc.

Thanks for sharing this with us.

As you're directly affected, I hope everything goes ok for you and your colleagues.

 

[Kahuna47]

Thanks for sharing this with us.

As you're directly affected, I hope everything goes ok for you and your colleagues.

Thanks for your kind words TGW, much appreciated. A lot of Vantage drivers I've spoken to today (well, the ones that will talk to a lowly normal driver - a number have a 'holier than thou' attitude towards us!) have said they'll be walking if thats the case as they all live on this side of Manchester.

I'm partly suprised at the decision as the deas mileage will be astronomical (apparently they've already done the scheduling and their earliest sign on at BN is 0325, which will now change to 0240 in order to get to Leigh on time.), but also not suprised as they have a ready to go depot, and its just to see out the contract before First leave Manc for good.

We shall see what happens!

K

 

[freetoview33]

Thanks for your kind words TGW, much appreciated. A lot of Vantage drivers I've spoken to today (well, the ones that will talk to a lowly normal driver - a number have a 'holier than thou' attitude towards us!) have said they'll be walking if thats the case as they all live on this side of Manchester.

I'm partly suprised at the decision as the deas mileage will be astronomical (apparently they've already done the scheduling and their earliest sign on at BN is 0325, which will now change to 0240 in order to get to Leigh on time.), but also not suprised as they have a ready to go depot, and its just to see out the contract before First leave Manc for good.

We shall see what happens!

K

It's obviously more economical to move it than hand it back for retender.

 

[WatcherZero]

I'm partly suprised at the decision as the deas mileage will be astronomical (apparently they've already done the scheduling and their earliest sign on at BN is 0325, which will now change to 0240 in order to get to Leigh on time.), but also not suprised as they have a ready to go depot, and its just to see out the contract before First leave Manc for good.

Isnt the reopened depot closer to the route than the Bolton depot? Its near the Manchester terminus.

 

[njlawley]

Isnt the reopened depot closer to the route than the Bolton depot? Its near the Manchester terminus.

Yes, so would be fine for driver changeovers. But the starts and finishes are Leigh / Atherton ended.

 

[Yorks185]

Isnt the reopened depot closer to the route than the Bolton depot? Its near the Manchester terminus.

Problem is,it's at the wrong end of the route for peak flows (towards Manchester in the morning/towards Leigh/Atherton in an evening) The other option to reduce dead milage would be introduce extra morning trips out of Manchester & into Manchester on an evening,but i doubt it would help much.

 

[WatcherZero]

They start so early from Leigh because the depot is in Bolton, there isn't a huge demand at 4am in the morning (the second bus from Leigh is 5am and then every 15/20 minutes after that), they are just flowing from the depot onto the route. Worst case scenario that they begin from Manchester at 4am, same time as the service would have commenced from Leigh, you lose exactly one service from Leigh and gain lots of extra calls out of Manchester for those that have been out partying late and normal service can still commence from 5am.

 

[Andyh82]

I suppose it depends if the 4am from Leigh is defined in the service spec, or if it just runs for First’s operational convenience and therefore could be withdrawn.

Also the peak flows, will also have dead runs in the opposite direction, and these runs will just swap over.

 

[Whiteway215]

To Kahuna47 and colleagues. Hope everything turns out well for you all in this Manchester upheaval.

 

[Volvodart]

You wonder if the new depot will be suitable for the electric buses, who pays for the installation and what sort of commitment will be needed over the timescale the electric buses will operate there.

 

[Volvodart]

It looks like some manipulation has been going on with the UK Bus pension deficit included in the accounts. The discounted deficit has basically stayed the same as last year's accounts, but it is now to be repaid by 2035 and not 2029 as previously stated (so the true deficit if it needed to be repaid today must now be considerably more than it was last year). At the half year results they said the unaccounted bit was £200 million. It could well be double that now, if not more.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It looks like some manipulation has been going on with the UK Bus pension deficit included in the accounts. The discounted deficit has basically stayed the same as last year's accounts, but it is now to be repaid by 2035 and not 2029 as previously stated (so the true deficit if it needed to be repaid today must now be considerably more than it was last year).

Well, it’s either that or they are contributing less in order to improve trading

 

[Robertj21a]

Well, it’s either that or they are contributing less in order to improve trading

That won't sound like the best of ideas to staff and commentators, even if it suits FGP accountants.