First Group: General Discussion

[DragonEast]

I'm also sure if people got wind of certain smaller operators thinking about selling up, what is to stop someone else just start a new service to get it for free?

Other problem is some many deals have fallen throw over the past 6 years? and nothing is set in stone until the fat lady sings, no matter what we want to believe.

Lets hope this is sorted out much sooner rather than later in the case of First, I've never saw a company in such troubles carry on as there were for so long.....

Fair point. I do rather wish we could escape the "schoolgirls in the playground". When it comes the dealing with the problems - which is frankly what it is all about - then the nameplate above (or below) the door is probably the least important part, or irrelevant. It's only useful for keeping the plebs attention away from what matters - and looking after the shareholders who, frankly, can look after themselves. Leave the drama to the (fictional) soap operas.

Most small ops have nurtured their business. It's like their child, and it'll leave home eventually when the time is right and it's ready. They still care what happens to it. Fortunately, we can't make the chemistry for love. Commodity trading is the big boys' business.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Even First Aberdeen? Sounds like the owners were reluctant.

Why wouldn’t First Aberdeen be attractive to a purchaser?

Prior to the last FY, it was a profitable operation and they have taken steps to improve the cost base. Even the fleet doesn’t require too much surgery.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Why wouldn’t First Aberdeen be attractive to a purchaser?

Prior to the last FY, it was a profitable operation and they have taken steps to improve the cost base. Even the fleet doesn’t require too much surgery.

I think Chris was implying First were/are reluctant to sell Aberdeen? This would be following interest from the council over the past 2 years, although i can't see this ever materialising.

In theory First Aberdeen could oust all it's Euro 2/3 vehicles by December as there's going to be a PVR reduction that will oust the B10s followed by the 15 new deckers, add in a 5 or so vehicle transfers and then that's the whole fleet Euro 4 or better. Although i believe the current plan is to retain all the Artics for now with some newer vehicles going to Glasgow to assist LEZ, certainly the reinstatement of 10170 two weeks ago backs this plan up.

 

[Volvodart]

The press is reporting the obvious today - that Aberdeen Council would have to wait until the appropriate legislation is passed!
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...il-bus-plan-may-have-to-wait-for-legislation/

Aberdeen council bus plan may have to wait for legislation
by Jon Hebditch
September 19, 2019, 6:21

Long-term plans for Aberdeen City Council to potentially buy First Aberdeen and operate a public network should be put on ice until relevant legislation has passed, councillors have been advised.

The ruling administration has long sought to purchase the company, which would include the fleet and King Street depot, to run a service akin to Edinburgh’s Lothian buses.

However, the plans are still reliant on the Scottish Parliament progressing the relevant legislation to allow councils to take control of services.

While MSPs have backed changes to the Transport Bill that will allow local authorities to run bus services directly or through an arms-length company, the laws are still in draft stage.

First Bus is currently selling its UK operations.

In a report to next week’s capital committee, transport officer Chris Cormack states: “This legislation is only draft at this time and it is not clear when this will be passed and implemented.

“Until such time, it would be premature to make any bid for First Aberdeen, as it is not clear that the council has any statutory power to do so, as a local authority entity, and on this basis it is recommended that the council would be best to await the outcome of the Transport (Scotland) Bill, before further considering the matter.”

Council co-leader Jenny Laing said: “We are keen to explore all the options around improving public transport in the city.

“What is unsustainable is subsidising uneconomical private bus routes given the funding challenges faced by councils.”

A spokesman for First Group said: “As we have stated, there are a number of potential outcomes for the separation of First Bus from the group and we are currently pursuing these options.

“This could be via a sale – either as a whole or in part – or by other means such as a demerger or partnership. Our bus companies are attractive businesses and we’re seeing interest from a wide range of parties. "

 

[Jordan Adam]

The press is reporting the obvious today - that Aberdeen Council would have to wait until the appropriate legislation is passed!

Even if it passes i still can't see the council buying out First Aberdeen. While the public do want improvements, just look at social media and you'll see far more people against a council buyout than for it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think Chris was implying First were/are reluctant to sell Aberdeen? This would be following interest from the council over the past 2 years, although i can't see this ever materialising.

In theory First Aberdeen could oust all it's Euro 2/3 vehicles by December as there's going to be a PVR reduction that will oust the B10s followed by the 15 new deckers, add in a 5 or so vehicle transfers and then that's the whole fleet Euro 4 or better. Although i believe the current plan is to retain all the Artics for now with some newer vehicles going to Glasgow to assist LEZ, certainly the reinstatement of 10170 two weeks ago backs this plan up.

I read it differently.

Your mention on the fleet composition and changes is what I was suggesting. Most of the old stuff will be dealt with.

Quite why councils think they’d be good operating buses, I don’t know. Lothian and Reading vs. Newport and Cardiff.

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite why councils think they’d be good operating buses, I don’t know. Lothian and Reading vs. Newport and Cardiff.

Not really good examples given they're all arms-length commercial outfits. They sink or swim based on the ability of their management.

A better example of local authority-run buses would be TfL, with its fortunes heavily dependent on the egos of politicians who have no business acumen.

 

[Rod Harrison]

Given what’s happened (or NOT!!) with Brexit, I don’t have any faith in any politician running anything! Furthermore, where would the money come from to buy out, and to fund, a bus company when there is such a huge demand for other council services on funding? Can’t see Aberdeen being bought out by Council even when, or if, legislation is passed.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not really good examples given they're all arms-length commercial outfits. They sink or swim based on the ability of their management.

A better example of local authority-run buses would be TfL, with its fortunes heavily dependent on the egos of politicians who have no business acumen.

I know - it’s just the usual go to examples.

Besides, what possible egotism could you be on about in London?? It’s not like there’s a load of uniquely designed, poor value for money, bespoke buses designed on the whim of a philandering liar pottering about the capital......

 

[DragonEast]

I know - it’s just the usual go to examples.

Besides, what possible egotism could you be on about in London?? It’s not like there’s a load of uniquely designed, poor value for money, bespoke buses designed on the whim of a philandering liar pottering about the capital......

Sadiq Khan? But seriously, yes TfL has maybe more than its fair share of disasters, but it absorbs them and still provides the best network if looked at from the point of view of patronage, network coverage and reliability in the south east (and possibly among the mets too?). Of course money talks, but it's pretty well run too. Just compare it to the Shires' efforts or even the met transport authorities.

It's not as though there are no egos outside of London, or in the private sector. Remind me where they vote for Boris.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sadiq Khan? But seriously, yes TfL has maybe more than its fair share of disasters, but it absorbs them and still provides the best network if looked at from the point of view of patronage, network coverage and reliability in the south east (and possibly among the mets too?). Of course money talks, but it's pretty well run too. Just compare it to the Shires' efforts or even the met transport authorities.

It's not as though there are no egos outside of London, or in the private sector. Remind me where they vote for Boris.

Uxbridge.... in London. Mind you, best not go off further off topic so as not to bother the mods

 

[overthewater]

Fair point. I do rather wish we could escape the "schoolgirls in the playground". When it comes the dealing with the problems - which is frankly what it is all about - then the nameplate above (or below) the door is probably the least important part, or irrelevant. It's only useful for keeping the plebs attention away from what matters - and looking after the shareholders who, frankly, can look after themselves. Leave the drama to the (fictional) soap operas.

Most small ops have nurtured their business. It's like their child, and it'll leave home eventually when the time is right and it's ready. They still care what happens to it. Fortunately, we can't make the chemistry for love. Commodity trading is the big boys' business.

Alas it does matter the name above the door, If its First there have no money, if it rotala there have bad reputations, If its Trentbarton, it of expensive fares and top quality route branding.

To be fair there is no council operated bus companies, as said everything is at arms length, and there is nothing to stop any other company operating like Lothian or Reading etc

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

there is nothing to stop any other company operating like Lothian or Reading etc

Really?

You don’t think that an enthusiastic local authority who promotes bus priority might help? Or one that supports local bus services by paying for uneconomic yet socially necessary services? Perhaps local economic factors play a part?

Oh what it were so simple

 

[overthewater]

Really?

You don’t think that an enthusiastic local authority who promotes bus priority might help? Or one that supports local bus services by paying for uneconomic yet socially necessary services? Perhaps local economic factors play a part?

Oh what it were so simple

Edinburgh City council is far from being pro public transport, bus priority is half arsed in Edinburgh. The council wouldn't find the funds for southern orbit bus route, countinules lies about so call plans for bus priority on Queensferry road. Council just today complained how Lothian is not accountable over the new so call Superbus https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....s-filmed-nearly-hitting-pedestrians-1-5006682

We have four park n rides, so does many other places in the UK, but the council including lord provost continues to complain how its the buses fault for all the problems in City central ignoring it crap traffic management for 20 years.. Its created this awful awful mess and blames everyone else. Council also only pays for 4 bus routes with in Edinburgh: No7, (queensferry) No13, No63, No68, plus helping out No38. Rest were killed out years ago. Everything Lothian has done has been because of its own two feet, the council done nothing to really help.

 

[PaulMc7]

Edinburgh City council is far from being pro public transport, bus priority is half arsed in Edinburgh. The council wouldn't find the funds for southern orbit bus route, countinules lies about so call plans for bus priority on Queensferry road. Council just today complained how Lothian is not accountable over the new so call Superbus https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....s-filmed-nearly-hitting-pedestrians-1-5006682

We have four park n rides, so does many other places in the UK, but the council including lord provost continues to complain how its the buses fault for all the problems in City central ignoring it crap traffic management for 20 years.. Its created this awful awful mess and blames everyone else. Council also only pays for 4 bus routes with in Edinburgh: No7, (queensferry) No13, No63, No68, plus helping out No38. Rest were killed out years ago. Everything Lothian has done has been because of its own two feet, the council done nothing to really help.

People in Glasgow always use Lothian as the reason we should go public handed for buses. This just backs up why we really shouldn't plus Glasgow City Council are useless

 

[overthewater]

People in Glasgow always use Lothian as the reason we should go public handed for buses. This just backs up why we really shouldn't plus Glasgow City Council are useless

SPT only really cares of Trains and Subway, its bus policy always raises an eyebrow, throwing good money after bad on strange bus route, or subsidising every single route when come pulls off. Again there is no proper Bus priority with Glasgow or the surrounding areas. To be fair 2 new bus gates have been put in to operation around Central Station, mind you the public dont care so Glasgow CC will make a mint off them.

bus lanes are do raise an eyebrow and do very little to help most.
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/bus-lanes-avoid-driving-glasgow-12208497

 

[PaulMc7]

SPT only really cares of Trains and Subway, its bus policy always raises an eyebrow, throwing good money after bad on strange bus route, or subsidising every single route when come pulls off. Again there is no proper Bus priority with Glasgow or the surrounding areas. To be fair 2 new bus gates have been put in to operation around Central Station, mind you the public dont care so Glasgow CC will make a mint off them.

bus lanes are do raise an eyebrow and do very little to help most.
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/bus-lanes-avoid-driving-glasgow-12208497

I think the thing the council need to do most is put their foot down and ban cars completely from the City Centre. People won't like it but it needs to happen. Buses here aren't great but people act like there's none. It's also cheaper to use any public transport than use a car too so it would only give people more money to spend

 

[Robertj21a]

I think the thing the council need to do most is put their foot down and ban cars completely from the City Centre. People won't like it but it needs to happen. Buses here aren't great but people act like there's none. It's also cheaper to use any public transport than use a car too so it would only give people more money to spend

Can't they just start with a central Congstion Zone charge ? - at least then it gives the car owner a choice , and the council gets an income.

 

[PaulMc7]

Can't they just start with a central Congstion Zone charge ? - at least then it gives the car owner a choice , and the council gets an income.

Possibly but I don't know how well it work. Would be a lot to pay on top of parking already and that's why I'd go in harder than that with an outright ban

 

[CM]

I think the thing the council need to do most is put their foot down and ban cars completely from the City Centre. People won't like it but it needs to happen. Buses here aren't great but people act like there's none. It's also cheaper to use any public transport than use a car too so it would only give people more money to spend

And then people will just stop going to the City Centre and go to places like Braehead and The Fort. I really do wonder if people on here actually think of these things before posting utter wibble. If you ban cars from the City Centre then how are the people who physically can't use public transport and HAVE to use a car supposed to get to the city centre?

 

[DragonEast]

I'm sure we could all regale each other with endless stories of Council incompetence but . . . the task for bus companies, and of course they're not alone, is to work around it. It seems to be something some independents are good at, and where the big boys have improved, often notably; but where First are weakest - they seem too often to lack the incentive, interest or ability to be creative, to add to the resource problem. The result, too often, is to take a bad situation and make it worse. Something to avoid at all costs. An incompetent Council and a weak operator, sometimes even working hand-in-glove, is the Devil's curse.

There is still a lot of mileage in the old saying that the route to hell is paved with good intentions. To take the metaphors too far, we seem to forget that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The successful operators have the ability to focus on and get the passenger experience right. First sometimes seem to disappear up their own behind with the process and not to see what's going on "on the ground". The best local example is buses scheduled to a ten minute or quarter hour frequency where passengers can be waiting 45m to an hour or longer. Not just occasionally, but regularly. A long term problem. We know why. But trying explaining that to an employer or when you're always late for everything - it's not just the passengers who get tired of the excuses; and the people who hate driving and would willingly use the buses, can't. It's often not the shortage of passengers but the shortage of buses.

Of course I am sure there are exceptions that "prove" the rule.

 

[PaulMc7]

And then people will just stop going to the City Centre and go to places like Braehead and The Fort. I really do wonder if people on here actually think of these things before posting utter wibble. If you ban cars from the City Centre then how are the people who physically can't use public transport and HAVE to use a car supposed to get to the city centre?

The 2 main reasons a lot of people don't use public transport are cost and unreliability. That happens as it is but no wonder as the City Centre isn't anywhere near as attractive to go as it used to be. Expensive shop rents etc are to blame for that though. There's barely any areas with little or no public transport in Glasgow so the majority of people don't have an alternative if cars were banned. It's not "utter wibble" just because you don't agree with it either

 

[PaulMc7]

I'm sure we could all regale each other with endless stories of Council incompetence but . . . the task for bus companies, and of course they're not alone, is to work around it. It seems to be something some independents are good at, and where the big boys have improved, often notably; but where First are weakest - they seem too often to lack the incentive, interest or ability to be creative, to add to the resource problem. The result, too often, is to take a bad situation and make it worse. Something to avoid at all costs. An incompetent Council and a weak operator, sometimes even working hand-in-glove, is the Devil's curse.

There is still a lot of mileage in the old saying that the route to hell is paved with good intentions. To take the metaphors too far, we seem to forget that the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The successful operators have the ability to focus on and get the passenger experience right. First sometimes seem to disappear up their own behind with the process and not to see what's going on "on the ground".

Of course I am sure there are exceptions that "prove" the rule.

Yeah First lack so much creativity it's genuinely frightening at times. Been so many chances for them to pull off good ideas that have been missed

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yeah First lack so much creativity it's genuinely frightening at times. Been so many chances for them to pull off good ideas that have been missed

This really gets me and not merely about First.

Have you actually worked? Have you worked for a bus company?

 

[PaulMc7]

This really gets me and not merely about First.

Have you actually worked? Have you worked for a bus company?

Bit rude. Yes I have worked but not for a bus company. Worked and studied in accountancy and business

 

[CM]

The 2 main reasons a lot of people don't use public transport are cost and unreliability. That happens as it is but no wonder as the City Centre isn't anywhere near as attractive to go as it used to be. Expensive shop rents etc are to blame for that though. There's barely any areas with little or no public transport in Glasgow so the majority of people don't have an alternative if cars were banned. It's not "utter wibble" just because you don't agree with it either

Did you even read what I said? I said nothing about reliability and cost. I said if people can't use there cars to go to the city centre then they'll go to places like Braehead and The Fort.

 

[PaulMc7]

Did you even read what I said? I said nothing about reliability and cost. I said if people can't use there cars to go to the city centre then they'll go to places like Braehead and The Fort.

Ofcourse I read it. I mentioned why that already happens. That's all

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Bit rude. Yes I have worked but not for a bus company. Worked and studied in accountancy and business

Not rude. However, it is very easy for people to criticise bus companies when they haven’t worked for them, and don’t know the pressures and constraints.

It’s the old Top Gear “how hard can it be?” line and the truth is “very”. Bus companies can be architects of their own woes and we can’t whitewash that. However, there are many things out of their control. Underfunded concessionary pass schemes? Traffic congestion? Emission zones that don’t apply to private cars but do affect buses? Plentiful or free town centre parking? Increasing internet shopping reducing travel? I could go on.

Not giving bus companies a free hit but when big groups are bailing, and other firms are selling up or going bust, then it points to something more fundamental than just being unimaginative!

 

[PaulMc7]

Not rude. However, it is very easy for people to criticise bus companies when they haven’t worked for them, and don’t know the pressures and constraints.

It’s the old Top Gear “how hard can it be?” line and the truth is “very”. Bus companies can be architects of their own woes and we can’t whitewash that. However, there are many things out of their control. Underfunded concessionary pass schemes? Traffic congestion? Emission zones that don’t apply to private cars but do affect buses? Plentiful or free town centre parking? Increasing internet shopping reducing travel? I could go on.

Not giving bus companies a free hit but when big groups are bailing, and other firms are selling up or going bust, then it points to something more fundamental than just being unimaginative!

It's also very easy to assume I haven't also thought of everything else because I absolutely have put tons of thinking into it. First being unimaginative is far from the only problem but it's a very big problem that applies to any business. If you can't adapt then you won't do well it's that simple. Using Glasgow as an example it needs someone who can adapt and be creative while setting fair prices that suit customers and actually builds a solid relationship with customers. Twitter and Facebook show the problem with having one social media team. I've helped people with queries more than a lot of the staff can. Granted I was 2 when First came into play here so they've been my main company with some train and Mcgills use but it shouldn't be possible for me or any other individual to help more with queries than someone who works on a social media team for the company

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's also very easy to assume I haven't also thought of everything else because I absolutely have put tons of thinking into it. First being unimaginative is far from the only problem but it's a very big problem that applies to any business. If you can't adapt then you won't do well it's that simple. Using Glasgow as an example it needs someone who can adapt and be creative while setting fair prices that suit customers and actually builds a solid relationship with customers. Twitter and Facebook show the problem with having one social media team. I've helped people with queries more than a lot of the staff can. Granted I was 2 when First came into play here so they've been my main company with some train and Mcgills use but it shouldn't be possible for me or any other individual to help more with queries than someone who works on a social media team for the company

I was responding to this quote

Yeah First lack so much creativity it's genuinely frightening at times. Been so many chances for them to pull off good ideas that have been missed

Nowt about social media etc but about creativity and ideas.

You may have done tons of thinking but perhaps getting some insight as to why bus companies (not just First) don’t do things might help.