First Group: General Discussion

[Seehof]

The order of EVs for York plus the existing EVs still does not replace all the diesel buses unless I have miscalculated. I am sure somebody will put me right for which I say “thank you” now.

 

[hst43102]

The order of EVs for York plus the existing EVs still does not replace all the diesel buses unless I have miscalculated. I am sure somebody will put me right for which I say “thank you” now.

Assuming my fleetlist is correct and up to date, I have the following in the First York fleet :

Diesel

5x Citaro G
12x Streetdeck
24x B9TL
8x Streetlite
14x B7RLE

Total :

5x Artic
22x Single
36x Decker

An order of 24x single and 29x decker won't replace every diesel bus but may be sufficient due to PVR reductions / less maintenance time?

 

[Haribolover06]

There is still no replacement announced yet for First York and Aberdeen's Citaro Bendy Buses. Mercedes do have an electric version of the Citaro G, which also has an option for a Hydrogen Fuel Cell range extender which would work quite well. I would presume these would cost more with it being a bendy bus and the addition of a Hydrogen fuel cell. but it seems like a good replacement for these specialist vehicles.

Also, Aberdeen has a fleet of E500 Tri axle deckers which would need replacing in the next few years.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Assuming my fleetlist is correct and up to date, I have the following in the First York fleet :

Diesel

5x Citaro G
12x Streetdeck
24x B9TL
8x Streetlite
14x B7RLE

Total :

5x Artic
22x Single
36x Decker

An order of 24x single and 29x decker won't replace every diesel bus but may be sufficient due to PVR reductions / less maintenance time?

5x Citaro - supposedly off to Aberdeen as soon as Kite EVs arrive
22x B9TL - replaced by 29x Streetdeck EVs
22x B7/Streetlite - replaced by 24x Kite EVs / 29x Streetdeck EVs and conversion of some routes to more DD operation

12x streetdeck - some partially replaced with 29x Streetdeck EVs, others either removed without replacement or with a brand new order not yet announced. can’t say more sorry! (although if you do the maths you’ll notice there’s a sub-fleet that fits the difference perfectly )

 

[Simon75]

So will Aberdeen lose all their artics then ? How many do they have?

 

[Surreyman]

5x Citaro - supposedly off to Aberdeen as soon as Kite EVs arrive
22x B9TL - replaced by 29x Streetdeck EVs
22x B7/Streetlite - replaced by 24x Kite EVs / 29x Streetdeck EVs and conversion of some routes to more DD operation

12x streetdeck - some partially replaced with 29x Streetdeck EVs, others either removed without replacement or with a brand new order not yet announced. can’t say more sorry! (although if you do the maths you’ll notice there’s a sub-fleet that fits the difference perfectly )

Didn't I read somewhere that the Versas were being returned to service after a refurb with new/reconditioned batteries?

 

[Jordan Adam]

So will Aberdeen loose all there srtics then ? How many do they have ?

No, Aberdeen will gain 5 from York in addition to the 9 already here.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Didn't I read somewhere that the Versas were being returned to service after a refurb with new/reconditioned batteries?

Hahahaha. Went away and came back more broken than before. Not a chance

 

[Seehof]

So what is going to be used on the Poppleton P&R which is supposed to be starting again “before Easter?”

 

[mic]

Oldhams 69531 has transffered to Olive Grove at Sheffield now

 

[Pit_buzzer]

Oldhams 69531 has transffered to Olive Grove at Sheffield now

Is that based on an actual sighting or just that a ticket machine of that number tracked on the 76 in sheffield for one return journey on bustimes last Thursday?

 

[mic]

Oldhams 69531 has transffered to Olive Grove at Sheffield now

Is that based on an actual sighting or just that a ticket machine of that number tracked on the 76 in sheffield for one return journey on bustimes last Thursday?

i read that after posting this whoops

 

[GusB]

Some posts have been moved to a new thread to tidy things up a bit

First Berkshire & Thames Valley

As Berkshire doesn’t have its own thread yet, then it's time to start one in here. According to Marc, the first of the E400 MMCs (34380) due for Slough has been repainted and is about to head south from Glasgow...

www.railforums.co.uk

This thread should really be kept for issues relating to First as a whole, such as group orders and movements between operating companies. Please keep any discussion about local companies to their individual threads - I think we've got the complete set now. If there isn't an existing thread for a specific opco, feel free to start one.

Edit: If you discover that one of the local threads has been locked due to inactivity, please report the last post in that thread and we'll look at reopening it. Thanks

 

[markymark2000]

Be nice to see First Glasgow make it onto bustimes soon - and Cardiff Bus too, as a matter of fact. It's always struck me as weird that almost everything other First op tracks, but Glasgow, surely First's biggest city operation now, doesn't.

Scotland and Wales operations do not legally have to send tracking data to the bus open data system. The laws only apply to routes which have at least 2 stops within England. The cost of having buses track via the open data system can be quite high, can cost upto £1,000 per machine, per year. For an operation the size of Glasgow, that is a lot of money. Aberdeen only has the fleet list thing because of the councils real time information system (And techy API stuff). I do believe that they are working towards having compliance across Scottish operations.


Cardiff Bus already tracks btw.

 

[Hullian111]

Cardiff Bus already tracks btw.

Yeah, whoops, worked that out when I checked after I made my post and they appeared again!

The cost of having buses track via the open data system can be quite high, a cost of around £1,000 per machine, per year. For an operation the size of Glasgow, that is a lot of money.

Oh yikes, I wasn't aware it was that expensive. Surely that's prohibitive to the smaller/mid-size independent ops, let alone a big-city op like First Glasgow?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Scotland and Wales operations do not legally have to send tracking data to the bus open data system. The laws only apply to routes which have at least 2 stops within England. The cost of having buses track via the open data system can be quite high, a cost of around £1,000 per machine, per year. For an operation the size of Glasgow, that is a lot of money. Aberdeen only has the fleet list thing because of the councils real time information system (And techy API stuff). I do believe that they are working towards having compliance across Scottish operations.

What's the reason for the additional cost? The tracking data required for Aberdeen and Glasgow already exists.

 

[markymark2000]

Oh yikes, I wasn't aware it was that expensive. Surely that's prohibitive to the smaller/mid-size independent ops, let alone a big-city op like First Glasgow?

That's a high price for it from some of the places that I've seen. Any firm that does it though, it can cost a lot.

It is cost prohibitive for many firms, that's why a number don't comply with the law and others are including it as reasons to increase fares as their costs have increased. When you bring the numbers down though to per passenger, even an operator doing only a school run, divide it over 190 school days, it's a few quid per day, then divide that per passenger. It's not excessive but it is an additional cost. As it's an upfront bigger cost as well, operators don't tend to like it.

What's the reason for the additional cost? The tracking data required for Aberdeen and Glasgow already exists.

Depends on the feeds and whether they are compliant with Bus Open Data. I trust there is more going on behind the scenes since if there is zero cost, it makes no sense why they are still working towards making the data available, it could have been done years ago.

 

[M803UYA]

That's a high price for it from some of the places that I've seen. Any firm that does it though, it can cost a lot.

It is cost prohibitive for many firms, that's why a number don't comply with the law and others are including it as reasons to increase fares as their costs have increased. When you bring the numbers down though to per passenger, even an operator doing only a school run, divide it over 190 school days, it's a few quid per day, then divide that per passenger. It's not excessive but it is an additional cost. As it's an upfront bigger cost as well, operators don't tend to like it.


Depends on the feeds and whether they are compliant with Bus Open Data. I trust there is more going on behind the scenes since if there is zero cost, it makes no sense why they are still working towards making the data available, it could have been done years ago.

I guess it needs an operator to stand up and say 'no, we're not doing this, take us to court' to see what the outcome of that approach will be. It'll just be another reason for an operator to deregister services rather than pay for it. Whilst not comparable I know of an operator that refused to pay their traveline invoices on principle and never did so - the council they worked for met the cost. That was something of an irritation to FirstGroup, who of course did pay their invoices!

 

[markymark2000]

I guess it needs an operator to stand up and say 'no, we're not doing this, take us to court' to see what the outcome of that approach will be. It'll just be another reason for an operator to deregister services rather than pay for it. Whilst not comparable I know of an operator that refused to pay their traveline invoices on principle and never did so - the council they worked for met the cost. That was something of an irritation to FirstGroup, who of course did pay their invoices!

Failure to comply can result in sanctions taken against the operators licence. Whether that be fines or reduction in the number of discs.

Traveline didn't have those sanctions did it?

 

[Goldfish62]

I guess it needs an operator to stand up and say 'no, we're not doing this, take us to court' to see what the outcome of that approach will be. It'll just be another reason for an operator to deregister services rather than pay for it. Whilst not comparable I know of an operator that refused to pay their traveline invoices on principle and never did so - the council they worked for met the cost. That was something of an irritation to FirstGroup, who of course did pay their invoices!

Fine. We can do without operators like that. They can go when they like.

 

[buscoaster]

I see the bendy buses that were acquired from Go Ahead and taken to Sheffield are now being scrapped. Any idea why they were bought? I wonder if they were bought for Manchester, and then scrapped as First failed to win the first set of franchises?

 

[bussnapperwm]

I see the bendy buses that were acquired from Go Ahead and taken to Sheffield are now being scrapped. Any idea why they were bought? I wonder if they were bought for Manchester, and then scrapped as First failed to win the first set of franchises?

I think it was for parts for the existing First Citaros

 

[Surreyman]

i am aware that many First Bus subsidiaries are now receiving 'new local liveries' are there any who are still using the Olympia scheme?

 

[stevenedin]

i am aware that many First Bus subsidiaries are now receiving 'new local liveries' are there any who are still using the Olympia scheme?

Glasgow and Worcester I think

 

[Jordan Adam]

Glasgow and Worcester I think

Neither are using Olympia, the current livery is known as "Urban".

i am aware that many First Bus subsidiaries are now receiving 'new local liveries' are there any who are still using the Olympia scheme?

The only recent repaints in to Olympia i'm aware of are the Ex-London Geminis that have recently entered service at Halifax.

First Halifax 37775 LK59 CWP@508

Volvo B9TL Wright Gemini 2 New to First London, it was handed to Metroline as VW1754 after First London was sold. On 2022, it was sold to CT Plus Yorkshire. However CT Plus was closed on August. After that, First Bus has bought back 37775 and some First London B9TL. First Halifax and First...

www.flickr.com

 

[cnjb8]

Glasgow and Worcester I think

Glasgow and Worcester have their own liveries now (albeit they still look very First-style)

 

[stevenedin]

Glasgow and Worcester have their own liveries now (albeit they still look very First-style)

Is that not the new standard First livery?

 

[Goldfish62]

Is that not the new standard First livery?

If you mean "Urban" livery, they're a version of it.

 

[Surreyman]

If you mean "Urban" livery, they're a version of it.

So if I have understood correctly, apart from Glasgow, Worcester & Halifax, the 'Urban' livery will be extinct in the near Future?
Seems strange why that those 3 places haven't gone for new colour schemes.

 

[scosutsut]

I think the majority of the local liveries are still urban pattern, it's just which colours they have changed?

Some (Aberdeen) are subtle changes to one colour and others (Leeds, Sheffield, Southampton) changed them all, just retaining the pattern?