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First Group: General Discussion

david16

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14 Jul 2013
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I would certainly have expected First to put up more of a fight. Instead Stagecoach have been handed victory before their service has even started.

I wonder how well Stagecoach are doing on the X27 between Forth Valley Royal Hospital and Glasgow compared with First's X37 from Falkirk to Glasgow.

I would imagine with a quick hop on the First X38 from Falkirk to the hospital then change onto the stagecoach X27 being a quicker, cheaper and more comfortable journey from Falkirk to Glasgow and back than the First X37 that Stagecoach carry most of the Falkirk to Glasgow and back passengers now.
 
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overthewater

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I wonder how well Stagecoach are doing on the X27 between Forth Valley Royal Hospital and Glasgow compared with First's X37 from Falkirk to Glasgow

Its picking up passengers, not alot of passengers mind you. Maybe a couple each run.
 

tbtc

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I would certainly have expected First to put up more of a fight. Instead Stagecoach have been handed victory before their service has even started.

Likewise - looks suspiciously straightforward for Stagecoach.

I wonder what will happen to the West Lothian tendered journeys towards Bo'Ness etc?

The 43 seems like a very long running service with few real alterations, apart from that car-crash period around 2001 when First ran the 88/89 from Gorebridge/ Polton to Silverknowes/ South Queensferry.

Does make me wonder how quickly First would fold if someone tried to take over another FiE service.
 

Blindtraveler

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me too. Also another point, which Overthewater made upthread - where does this leav Livingston? if the gameplan is to make the books read so badly that headoffice pull the plug on it, then it wouldnt be totally surprising. If this were to happen it begs the question what they do in this area full stop? I would say at a guess the tendered runs will continue till the same time and the contract will be handed back.
 

david16

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Likewise - looks suspiciously straightforward for Stagecoach.

I wonder what will happen to the West Lothian tendered journeys towards Bo'Ness etc?

The 43 seems like a very long running service with few real alterations, apart from that car-crash period around 2001 when First ran the 88/89 from Gorebridge/ Polton to Silverknowes/ South Queensferry.

Does make me wonder how quickly First would fold if someone tried to take over another FiE service.

Bo'ness is not in the West Lothian Council area. Tendered Bo'ness bus services are the responsibility of Falkirk Council.

But Stagecoach already have the F15 Falkirk to Alloa tendered service.

And the Stagecoach 78 operates the same route as the 60 between Clackmannan to Stirling apart from not going into Morrison's near Alloa. If Stagecoach ran all 3 per hour to Stirling and also extended to Falkirk via Plean and the hospital, First would be in big trouble.

What will happen with these First distance stopping services from Falkirk and Stirling to Edinburgh and Glasgow if they lose the Scotrail contract? I can see First cutting the 38 to be only between Falkirk to Edinburgh while it's all the 60 between Falkirk and Stirling. The 6 per hour 60 with 3 of them going via Waitrose as a 60A? The X37 and X39 from Falkirk and Stirling terminating in Cumbernauld to connect with the First Glasgow services to Glasgow?
 
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tbtc

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I wonder what will happen to the West Lothian tendered journeys towards Bo'Ness etc?

Bo'ness is not in the West Lothian Council area. Tendered Bo'ness bus services are the responsibility of Falkirk Council

Okay, Falkirk Council... but First are currently tendered to run some services from Edinburgh/ South Queensferry to Blackness/ Bo'Ness - has anyone any suggestion of what would happen to these if they pull out of the 43 (bearing in mind that we are basing all of this on sightings of a notice in a depot, nothing official yet).

Even if the tender was taken on by Stagecoach, it'd mean a lot of dead running (e.g. from Dunfermline to Bo'Ness).

However I imagine that the Ecclesmachan/ Dechmont trips are going to bite the dust as they are just positioning trips to/from Deans (and serve no other use).
 

mbonwick

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I must be the only one who is not surprised here!

To recap; Livingston and Musselburgh are separated out on the latest set of accounts, sparking suggestions that a close-down is planned.
A competitor (Stagecoach) then moves in on the most profitable route at one of the depots.

Given the time delay, I think its fair to say that First took a step back and had a good long hard look at things, before deciding that a bus war on one of their more important corridors is not worth the hassle when the overall intention is to close things down.
Given the losses racked up, I have little doubt that Livingston and Musselburgh would/will be closed down at some point, but Stagecoach have hastened the shedding of the 43 somewhat by announcing competition.
 

overthewater

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Bo'ness is not in the West Lothian Council area. Tendered Bo'ness bus services are the responsibility of Falkirk Council.

Yet in the paper timetable it says "Part of the journey between Bo'ness and Queensferry is operated on behalf of West Lothian council".

Are we sure the journeys are not commercial? With the section via Blackness under contract?
 

Blindtraveler

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I agree with Michael on that. What I think Will be Very interesting is to see if SC Start looking for a Depot or outstation site within the Lothians and if so where its located if they get one. This will give a better indication as to where they intend starting up next. A few duplicate journeys, even at peek time on the East Lothian X6 or X8 would very easily have First worried as they are not liked in the county, you only have to look at the numbers Perrymans carries between Edinburgh, Haddington East Linton and Dunbar to prove this. Similarly a stagecoach Express route from Bathgate to Edinburgh via Livingston and the M8, traveling onto the City Centre via the A8, Zoo, Haymarket etc with a shorter travel time could again give First who are of course restricted by Scotrail on West Lothian runs, a headake!↲
 

david16

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I agree with Michael on that. What I think Will be Very interesting is to see if SC Start looking for a Depot or outstation site within the Lothians and if so where its located if they get one. This will give a better indication as to where they intend starting up next. A few duplicate journeys, even at peek time on the East Lothian X6 or X8 would very easily have First worried as they are not liked in the county, you only have to look at the numbers Perrymans carries between Edinburgh, Haddington East Linton and Dunbar to prove this. Similarly a stagecoach Express route from Bathgate to Edinburgh via Livingston and the M8, traveling onto the City Centre via the A8, Zoo, Haymarket etc with a shorter travel time could again give First who are of course restricted by Scotrail on West Lothian runs, a headake!↲

Nobody is willing to stay on the same stopping service bus for 1.5 or 2 hours nowadays - with the bus going all around the houses, zig zagging and the being on the road 100 yards away from where it was 10 minutes ago e.g. - to get from A to B if they are aware there's a significantly faster express service alternative on offer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its picking up passengers, not alot of passengers mind you. Maybe a couple each run.

I would have thought it would have done better. But it's not it's a complete waste of time the X27 coming off the M876 to divert to the hospital then back onto it. It appears to be doing its job of taking passenferd who have appointments or are visitors to and from the hospital

Disappointing is the lack of flyers from Stagecoach promoting the service. Perhaps Stagecoach are thinking First bus passengers going to the hospital will notice the service and think it's a great new alternative bus journey from the area to/from Glasgow than the horrid long winded uncomfortable firm seated bus for a distance X service, the First X37.

Forth Valley Royal is not exactly out the way for Falkirk area passengers to catch the Stagecoach X27 to/from Glasgow like Kincardine is. Or is it just the case of better the devil you know in the Falkirk area if people do know of the Stagecoach X27. Falkirk area passengers will not get a better service from First if they don't try an alternative (or if they do try an alternative they wave the bus on if it comes before First if they suddenly offer Free Service or drastically reduced fares leading to First's rivals to pull out and allow First to become the only operators again ) to force First to improve their services. Dewars were doing brilliantly on the Circular until the then Midland Bluebird offered a much reduced fare service. Dewars were cheap and using a conductress too it's such a shame the passengers did not stick with them forcing Dewars to pull out. I recall Midland Bluebird as they were then pulled the 70/A Circular and replaced it with the 90 from Falkirk to Lamond View and it was Dewars who reintroduced it before Midland did.
 
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Surreyman

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The small depot/outstation in Yeovil appears to have a 100% non - DDA compliant fleet, meaning everything is over 13 years old.
Now I accept that this could be updated very easily with cascaded vehicles.
I am guessing the vehicles go to Weymouth for heavy maintenance and may even be rotated with newer vehicles from the Weymouth fleet, my point is, that someone has decided that the Yeovil operation should be run with near fully depreciated vehicles, presumably for financial reasons?
Is the network run commercially or on Somerset tenders?
 

david16

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14 Jul 2013
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The small depot/outstation in Yeovil appears to have a 100% non - DDA compliant fleet, meaning everything is over 13 years old.
Now I accept that this could be updated very easily with cascaded vehicles.
I am guessing the vehicles go to Weymouth for heavy maintenance and may even be rotated with newer vehicles from the Weymouth fleet, my point is, that someone has decided that the Yeovil operation should be run with near fully depreciated vehicles, presumably for financial reasons?
Is the network run commercially or on Somerset tenders?

It's going to become a real pain for First when they have to provide an all low floor services with a wheelchair ramp - Some of the cascaded V and W reg Scanias around here had the ramp and disabled logo sticker but the ramps were removed and the disabled logo sticker peeled off. But those buses did not need to meet strict DDA regulations the way post 2000 manufactured buses had to and all their buses needing to regularly be inspected. Not just for wheelchair ramps, but for other things as well such as destination screens meeting strict standards for people with impaired sight.

WIll audio stop announcements and scrolling next stop need to be provided by all bus companies?

First will probably have the buses to meet the DDA rules come the deadline in all their areas. But keeping on top of all the tasks required to keep the buses fully DDA compliant is a big challenge facing First. Will they be up to it when they really need to be?
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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It's going to become a real pain for First when they have to provide an all low floor services with a wheelchair ramp - Some of the cascaded V and W reg Scanias around here had the ramp and disabled logo sticker but the ramps were removed and the disabled logo sticker peeled off. But those buses did not need to meet strict DDA regulations the way post 2000 manufactured buses had to and all their buses needing to regularly be inspected. Not just for wheelchair ramps, but for other things as well such as destination screens meeting strict standards for people with impaired sight.

WIll audio stop announcements and scrolling next stop need to be provided by all bus companies?

First will probably have the buses to meet the DDA rules come the deadline in all their areas. But keeping on top of all the tasks required to keep the buses fully DDA compliant is a big challenge facing First. Will they be up to it when they really need to be?

There's been a lot of talk about this. For DDA compliance, there are a number of things to adhere to and for many fleets, the amount of retrofitting varies depending on the type and spec of vehicle.

For First, they have a good number of Darts that need to be culled (hence the 425 vehicle order mainly for Streetlites) plus there are some B10BLEs that are getting quite elderly. However, W and X reg Wright Renowns will probably be able to meet DDA with relatively few changes - Arriva North East did that with theirs a few years ago and it was fairly painless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The small depot/outstation in Yeovil appears to have a 100% non - DDA compliant fleet, meaning everything is over 13 years old.
Now I accept that this could be updated very easily with cascaded vehicles.
I am guessing the vehicles go to Weymouth for heavy maintenance and may even be rotated with newer vehicles from the Weymouth fleet, my point is, that someone has decided that the Yeovil operation should be run with near fully depreciated vehicles, presumably for financial reasons?
Is the network run commercially or on Somerset tenders?

The depot in Yeovil does have an old fleet. However, half of it is Solos that may have ramps (can't remember) and don't have the problems with wheelarches that old SLF Darts have. They might not need much in terms of upgrading.

That depot used to have a large allocation but have incrementally lost work to local independents (as well as the 54 service to Taunton depot). Therefore, most if not all services as now commercial. The lack of modern kit is probably a reflection on the marginal nature of the depot. Services are mainly local with service to Wincanton and Sherborne.

Vehicles are maintained locally with heavy maintenance undertaken at Weymouth. I'd expect the Dart SLFs to get butchered during 2014 but with what, who knows.
 

freetoview33

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Just a sign of how First have gone over time cut back on services, shy away from competition and cut back on supported routes. Means there network is very patchy.
 

overthewater

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I would have thought it would have done better. But it's not it's a complete waste of time the X27 coming off the M876 to divert to the hospital then back onto it. It appears to be doing its job of taking passenger who have appointments or are visitors to and from the hospital. Disappointing is the lack of flyers from Stagecoach promoting the service.

From what I have seen, Fife passengers are using the services to change over at FVRH to travel onwards to Falkirk or even Stirling. Timetables are in the Hospital, but its only been 2 months but at least its picking up passengers in both directions.


Just a sign of how First have gone over time cut back on services, shy away from competition and cut back on supported routes. Means there network is very patchy.

Yet First are not shying away to the competition in other areas, like down in the south west ;)


There's been a lot of talk about this. For DDA compliance, there are a number of things to adhere to and for many fleets, the amount of retrofitting varies depending on the type and spec of vehicle.

For First, they have a good number of Darts that need to be culled (hence the 425 vehicle order mainly for Streetlites) plus there are some B10BLEs that are getting quite elderly.

Is there alot of mid life second hand DDA darts/solos up for sale which first could buy as part of a stop gap measures? Just to help get the fleet updated?

First were buying second hand buses over the past two years will this trend continue?
 

DunsBus

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All of the 57-plate Geminis are to go from Livingston when the 43 comes off.
 

overthewater

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All of the 57-plate Geminis are to go from Livingston when the 43 comes off.

All 19?

37135 - 37145 ( SN 57 HCP - SN 57 HDF) / 37266 - 37273 ( SN 57 HDG -
SN 57 JBX)

What will be replacing the other 11 buses? More X reg Tridents from Cumbernauld Depot?
 

Blindtraveler

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that says a lot. If they thought the Depot was worth the effort they would be allowed to keep them and scrap/cascade older stuff. The fact the0Geminis have DP Seats would make them ideal for some of the longer routes. Where are they going to head off too?
 

northwichcat

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The Finglands services in Manchester transferred to First Manchester as of yesterday following the acquisition of Finglands by First Manchester.
 

overthewater

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First has overhauled its fares in Hampshire, in a bid to simplify the fare structure. I for one hope, this idea is rolled out to other depots.

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/hampshire/travel_news/news_initiatives/?item=16111&conf=0

First is launching a complete overhaul of fares and tickets for its Southampton services, which will result in more than 60% of its customers seeing either a reduction or no change in the cost of their journeys.


From Saturday (8 February), there will only be six standard ticket prices for new fare zones, four of which are within the city area, which will be charged in multiples of 50p.

All adult return fares will now cost only £1 more than corresponding single fare, the cheapest single fare being £1 on one of Firsts busiest routes, Service 2 from Millbrook to Shirley.

The other significant change is on Service 11 to Weston where the single fare will go down from £2.35 to £2.

Child single fares will be 50p less than their adult equivalent fares. Child returns will be 50p more than for a single. There will be no changes to the price of day fares or period tickets.

The reason why we are doing this is because he fares system in Southampton had become increasingly complex and difficult for existing and potential customers to understand.

Our priority is always with our customers so introducing simpler fares will result in less hassle as the only coins they need for their journeys are multiples of 50p and £1.

This in turn will speed up journeys as neither they nor our drivers will have to worry about finding several different coins for their fares.

Nearly 63% of our customers will see either a reduction or no change to their fares.

There will be increases on some services, but with return fares only £1 more than single fares, bus travel in Southampton is now even better value for money.

All season ticket prices also remain the same and offer great value for our frequent travellers.

Sample adult fares include.

Millbrook to Shirley, Single £1, Return £2
Shirley to City Centre, Single £1.50, Return £2.50
Lords Hill to Southampton General Hospital, Single £1.50, Return £2.50
Millbrook to City Centre, Single £2, Return £3
Bitterne to City Centre, Single £2, Return £3
Thornhill to City Centre, Single £2, Return £3
Bitterne Park to City Centre, Single £2, Return £3
Witts Hill to City Centre, Single £2, Return £3
Weston to City Centre, Single £2, Return £3
Portswood to City Centre, Single £2, Return £3
Hamble to City Centre, Single £3.50, Return £4.50

Sample child fares (aged 5-16) include:

Millbrook to Shirley, Single £50p, Return £1
Shirley to City Centre, Single £1., Return £2
Lords Hill to Southampton General Hospital, Single £1, Return £1.50
Millbrook to City Centre, Single £1.50, Return £2
Bitterne to City Centre, Single £1.50, Return £2
Thornhill to City Centre, Single £1.50, Return £2
Bitterne Park to City Centre, Single £1.50, Return £2
Witts Hill to City Centre, Single £1.50, Return £2
Weston to City Centre, Single £1.50, Return £2
Portswood to City Centre, Single £1.50, Return £2
Hamble to City Centre, Single £3, Return £3.50
 

BurtonM

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The Finglands services in Manchester transferred to First Manchester as of yesterday following the acquisition of Finglands by First Manchester.

The Finglands sign has already been taken off the depot building and replaced with a purple First sign that says 'welcome'. All remaining Finglands vehicles are now carrying an orange and pink sticker on the front reading 'this route now operated by First', and the hybrid buses on the 18 have a similar sticker reading 'Finglands tickets accepted on this route'. There are a fair few First buses in the depot already, and I saw a new-looking Wright Streetlite being driven in yesterday too.
 

mbonwick

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To be fair though, the Streetlites were delivered sometime ago and have been stored at First Manchester depots pending the takeover.
 

BurtonM

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That's true - I clocked one on testing on Oxford Road last year and I had to wonder what it was, it was awfully ugly.
The depot sign looked like it was just a printed board, possibly temporary.
And First aren't actually using any of their own buses yet - I'll be interested to see how long that takes.
 

anthony263

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Seems the situation in Redditch and Kidderminster has gone down hill since First Midland Red sold the garages to Rotala who seem to be really running the service down.

No matter when they pull the plug I wont be surprised to see First returning to Redditch. Worcester does seem to be getting busier so much so a large number of additional drivers are being taken on including myself.

First do have some very big plans so watch this space
 

winston270twm

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Seems the situation in Redditch and Kidderminster has gone down hill since First Midland Red sold the garages to Rotala who seem to be really running the service down.

No matter when they pull the plug I wont be surprised to see First returning to Redditch. Worcester does seem to be getting busier so much so a large number of additional drivers are being taken on including myself.

First do have some very big plans so watch this space

I'd disagree with the first statement, in Kidderminster the number of people using buses has actually increased since First left the town, such that, bigger buses are now required on a number of routes due to capacity issues/overcrowding. It's fair to say Rotala haven't performed quite so well in Redditch, mainly due to operational problems i.e. bunching of buses/large gaps in frequent services/missing buses etc.

Rotala have recently conducted Network reviews in both Redditch & Kidderminster inviting passenger comment, the first changes are now starting to be implemented, see below:
http://www.diamondbuses.com/news/ComingSoonMorebusestoAlexandraHospital_185.html

Can't see Rotala pulling the plug on Redditch, they'd be foolish to as they have the town virtually to themselves. I also can't see First returning to Redditch.

I suspect First may be taking over some of Worcester P&R work currently operated by WCC in-house (via Woosh) due to council cuts
 
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