First Group order AT300 for East Coast open access operation

[NoOnesFool]

400 seats seems like a lot for a 5 car EMU doesn't it? That would mean and average of 80 seats per coach.

It is going to be Standard Class only, so no chunky seats and generous legroom to stunt capacity.

 

[rdlover777]

i'm more confused as to why it looks like the 395 as the AT300 is just the alt name for the 802s

 

[43074]

i'm more confused as to why it looks like the 395 as the AT300 is just the alt name for the 802s

The 395s are in the AT300 series, it's basically Hitachi's brand for their range of units which are capable of 125mph - 140mph.

 

[rdlover777]

The 395s are in the AT300 series, it's basically Hitachi's brand for their range of units which are capable of 125mph - 140mph.

really? when ever i search up AT300, its always lists the 802 only, i know that the 395, 800, 801 and 802 are all A Trains

 

[Darandio]

really? when ever i search up AT300, its always lists the 802 only, i know that the 395, 800, 801 and 802 are all A Trains

You only needed to search as far as the Hitachi website.

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/our-trains/at300-intercity-high-speed

 

[43074]

really? when ever i search up AT300, its always lists the 802 only, i know that the 395, 800, 801 and 802 are all A Trains

Yep, most of this page on the Hitachi website is devoted to the 395: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/our-trains/at300-intercity-high-speed

EDIT: Beaten to it!

 

[rdlover777]

Yep, most of this page on the Hitachi website is devoted to the 395: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/our-trains/at300-intercity-high-speed

EDIT: Beaten to it!

You only needed to search as far as the Hitachi website.

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/products/our-trains/at300-intercity-high-speed

well what do you know, that shut me right up

 

[Bald Rick]

I think that is the whole point of the project. They are mainly modular and this easily configurable to whatever spec the customer wants. Replacing a diesel power pack and fuel tank with batteries is likely to be a smart move. Cheaper, lower in mass and close to just as good. I always thought the diesel power pack in the 801s was a bit of an extravagance. How often will it ever be used? Presumably 10 years from now it would be easy enough to make this change to the 801s too if that were what the customer requested.

Agreed. If the battery pack and extra control equipment weighs the same as what the engine / cooler group / exhaust / full fuel tank weighs, each battery replacement will have about 1 MWh of juice in it (based on power capacity / weight of Tesla automotive batteries). If a five car has three of them, that’s enough for about an hour at full chat.

 

[rdlover777]

You seem to know what you are talking about so i will ask you this. Are they actually going to have 26m carrages as you say because the current Class 395 Javelins are only 20m? These current units have 340 seats. Are these a completely custom build or is it just another Javelin order.

to be fair, the 6JAVs are only 20m because of the SE networks C0(?) route access, the 800/801/802 would all have the length of the MK3s as they operate the same routes

 

[class387]

Regarding the 400 seat capacity, could it be 2+3 with lots of legroom? Would be a hard sell, but not unthinkable...

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Regarding the 400 seat capacity, could it be 2+3 with lots of legroom? Would be a hard sell, but not unthinkable...

Possible, but unlikely. We will have so see when we get interior photos and more details.

 

[kylemore]

What a waste of rail capacity.

5 cars?

It should have been a condition that they operated trains consisting of the maximum cars that can be accommodated, if their business case isn't up to it then go away and come back when it does or let somebody better at getting bums on seats get the slots.

 

[ainsworth74]

What a waste of capacity.

Welcome to Open Access!

 

[Doomotron]

For those saying it looks like a 395, it doesn't... The CGI renders just don't show the normal yellow front, it's one that curves at the top, like on a Javelin. Other than that it's obviously the 80x design.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

So is this new unit going to be a Javelin, or and 80x.

 

[Class 170101]

Not convinced about not having diesel engines. All the diversionary routes of the ECML north of Hitchin are either all or only partially electrified so it reduces their flexibility to divert around Engineering Works or disruption on the Main Route.

Open Access Operators made LNER and its predecessors up their game in terms of keeping passengers on the rails rather than routeing the via Rail Replacement Buses for parts of their through journeys.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not convinced about not having diesel engines. All the diversionary routes of the ECML north of Hitchin are either all or only partially electrified so it reduces their flexibility to divert around Engineering Works or disruption on the Main Route.

Open Access Operators made LNER and its predecessors up their game in terms of keeping passengers on the rails rather than routeing the via Rail Replacement Buses for parts of their through journeys.

They’ll have batteries, which should be up to the job. I would be very surprised if they weren’t good for an Ely - Peterborough run.

 

[Class 170101]

They’ll have batteries, which should be up to the job. I would be very surprised if they weren’t good for an Ely - Peterborough run.

How about a Peterborough to Doncaster run via Lincoln or Northallerton to Newcastle via Sunderland?

Seems an almightly leap of faith fpr something not even yet created for testing never mind implementing it on an existing design.

 

[Rob F]

How about a Peterborough to Doncaster run via Lincoln or Northallerton to Newcastle via Sunderland?

Seems an almightly leap of faith fpr something not even yet created for testing never mind implementing it on an existing design.

I don’t understand the current obsession that electric trains need to operate off electric lines. The rest of the world seems to manage OK with electric only rolling stock.

 

[Class 170101]

I don’t understand the current obsession that electric trains need to operate off electric lines. The rest of the world seems to manage OK with electric only rolling stock.

This is because they regularly couple and uncouple diesel locomotives and have the skills, signalling and track capacity to do this. We have lost these over the years and prefer to do this as infrequently as possible even where it is possible to do this.

 

[Hank]

I wonder if the press release referring to ‘AT300’ is because the TOPS designation may be unclear as of now - e.g. it could end up being called an 803 rather than the 802 assumed by several other posters.

I say this due to the swapping out of the diesel engine for a battery - so giving it a different power plant configuration versus the 802. Power plant configuration was always a core part of the TOPS classification approach.

 

[Hank]

And while I’m at it ... using a battery instead of diesel may also reflect the lessor’s business model requirements - i.e. by the target 2040 diesel cut-off point, these trains will be likely just over half way through their economic lives. Going battery at the (more flexible) manufacturing stage saves a high probability retrofit down the road.

 

[TheBigD]

They’ll have batteries, which should be up to the job. I would be very surprised if they weren’t good for an Ely - Peterborough run.

Happy to be corrected but I'd be surprised if they were allowed to run on the OHLE Hitchin-Cambridge-Ely unless the restriction have changed recently.

 

[Bald Rick]

Happy to be corrected but I'd be surprised if they were allowed to run on the OHLE Hitchin-Cambridge-Ely unless the restriction have changed recently.

Hitchin to Cambridge can easily take plenty of 12 car 700s at 5MW a pop, so a 5 car one of these will be chicken feed. Cambridge to Ely is being upgraded as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possible, but unlikely. We will have so see when we get interior photos and more details.

With 26m vehicles they're a bit narrow for 3+2.

I reckon it'll be 2 tables per coach at Voyager pitch. Should get 90 or so per coach that way.

 

[Roger100]

This is because they regularly couple and uncouple diesel locomotives and have the skills, signalling and track capacity to do this. We have lost these over the years and prefer to do this as infrequently as possible even where it is possible to do this.

It's not often we see IC225 train running via Sunderland, Hartlepool and Northallerton, although this happened over a weekend about 13 months ago - with a Class 67 hauling the electric set. We don't often see a Virgin/LNER HST either, although the LNER 2200 service from Kings Cross is running this route tonight. Mass cancellations and/or buses is the norm.

There hasn't been an 800 or 802 through Hartlepool yet, although I think they've run Newcastle to Sunderland and back. It will be interesting to hear the sound effects on the tight curves.

 

[TheBigD]

Hitchin to Cambridge can easily take plenty of 12 car 700s at 5MW a pop, so a 5 car one of these will be chicken feed. Cambridge to Ely is being upgraded as well.

.

Cheers for that. Didn't realise Cambridge-Ely was being upgraded.

 

[jimm]

I don’t understand the current obsession that electric trains need to operate off electric lines. The rest of the world seems to manage OK with electric only rolling stock.

Not this hoary old myth yet again. SNCF operates hundreds of bi-mode passenger units and there are growing numbers of electric locomotives with last-mile diesel engines or full-blown bi-mode locos operating all over Europe

 

[Rob F]

Not this hoary old myth yet again. SNCF operates hundreds of bi-mode passenger units and there are growing numbers of electric locomotives with last-mile diesel engines or full-blown bi-mode locos operating all over Europe

Not a huge number on premium express trains.

 

[Noddy]

Quite a unique spec for such a small order

Depending on whether it’s a last mile battery or a full blown hybrid, Firstgroups thinking is probably that a) the mantaince costs compared to maintaining the single diesel engine etc will be significantly reduced or b) these could effectively act as prototypes for modifications to rest of the groups 802 fleet.