First Potteries Discussion

[James101]

Details of timetables from 1 September now published on Traveline SW. Search under route timetables and then by operator.
Usual incomprehensible mess from First with random frequencies. I wonder if this new approach is attracting new customers and growing the business?

D & G changes also showing. Stanton's IN2 becomes GO2 and operates Newcastle to Cheadle instead of Hanley to Cheadle.

Well First have truly gone off the deep end with these. 3&4 become a 38/39 mega-circular with, I hope I’m wrong, no Kidsgrove-Crewe section and a AI-sort-of 15 minute frequency around shared sections of the loop.

EDIT: I now have seen the Hanley-Crewe service becomes the 103.

 

[Contains Nuts]

Well First have truly gone off the deep end with these. 3&4 become a 38/39 mega-circular with, I hope I’m wrong, no Kidsgrove-Crewe section and a AI-sort-of 15 minute frequency around shared sections of the loop.

The Hanley to Crewe service becomes the 103.

 

[James101]

The Hanley to Crewe service becomes the 103.

I see. What bizarre route numbering logic.

 

[SeanM1997]

The Hanley to Crewe service becomes the 103.

Timetables

Our services will be running to a Sunday timetable on the Early May Bank Holiday (Monday 5th May) and on the Spring Bank Holiday (Monday 26th May)

www.firstbus.co.uk

Awful timetable at every 35-40 minutes and not all timetables shown yet so hopefully will be fixed to be half hourly

Later weekday services:
Hanley 2033-2140 Crewe
Crewe 2050-2156 Hanley
Crewe 2150-2227 Kidsgrove

Sadly 4 less services on a Saturday between Hanley - Crewe / Crewe - Hanley with a similar start and end time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

I see. What bizarre route numbering logic.

103 similar to 101 to Stafford. So triple digit on long distance routes and will be separated to not integrate with the 38/38A/39. Which is partly why for the awful timetable and inconsistent timings

 

[43055]

Timetables

Our services will be running to a Sunday timetable on the Early May Bank Holiday (Monday 5th May) and on the Spring Bank Holiday (Monday 26th May)

www.firstbus.co.uk

Awful timetable at every 35-40 minutes and not all timetables shown yet so hopefully will be fixed to be half hourly

Later weekday services:
Hanley 2033-2140 Crewe
Crewe 2050-2156 Hanley
Hanley 2150-2227 Crewe

Sadly 4 less services on a Saturday between Hanley - Crewe / Crewe - Hanley with a similar start and end time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==


103 similar to 101 to Stafford. So triple digit on long distance routes and will be separated to not integrate with the 38/38A/39. Which is partly why for the awful timetable and inconsistent timings

What a mess of a timetable. With a sort of 15 min service and a 35 min service now means some buses running at about the same times.

I wonder if the 18 would become the 102 so all of the longer distance routes are numbered 10x?

 

[davehsug]

What a mess of a timetable. With a sort of 15 min service and a 35 min service now means some buses running at about the same times.

I wonder if the 18 would become the 102 so all of the longer distance routes are numbered 10x?

It seems a little sad that a route to a town 8 miles away should be regarded as longer distance?

 

[James101]

103 similar to 101 to Stafford. So triple digit on long distance routes and will be separated to not integrate with the 38/38A/39. Which is partly why for the awful timetable and inconsistent timings

There's a few instances of a 103 & 39 running within 3 minutes of each other and even a double departure of both routes at 0723 from Hanley. The 103 is given less running time to Kidsgrove than the 39 but there's no indication the 103 is limited stop.

 

[capitalpotter]

Will the new 38/39 routes use the "mainline" branded buses or is this even more wasted paint?

 

[SSmith2009]

What a mess of a timetable. With a sort of 15 min service and a 35 min service now means some buses running at about the same times.

I wonder if the 18 would become the 102 so all of the longer distance routes are numbered 10x?

First are using AI to create most timetables and it's created allsorts of weird frequency patterns.

My local route is every 12 mins but goes to every 17/18 mins at peak times.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

First are using AI to create most timetables and it's created allsorts of weird frequency patterns.

My local route is every 12 mins but goes to every 17/18 mins at peak times.

But it (the £4.5m AI software) doesn't have to have that output. First choose to be deliberately awkward. The 25 service in the potteries departs, when it suits them, exactly every 15 minutes, although the subsequent arrival at the terminus is random.

They seem to relish reducing the frequencies and then having buses sit around at the termini for long periods, far in excess of what is necessary to achieve punctual performance.

My local service runs every 30, 35 or 40 minutes, from / to which I connect from a service which runs every 24 minutes. Basically you just have to set off and see when you get there. If you choose a convenient connection outbound you can guarantee a poor connection returning with a 40 minute wait whilst your shopping defrosts!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2024 ==

The 103 are not loaded on Traveline SW but on First Potteries website... what a mess of a timetable that is. It's like they want it to fail with the inconsistency

Are any of the changes related to Tranche 2?

Some are. They are mentioned in the text but the timetables are not uploaded, eg: 6A journey, 21, 22 and 43 Sundays. There were more substantial services in tranche 2 which have not been mentioned: new services 9A, 19, 19A, evening journeys on 11 and 22.

 

[capitalpotter]

I'm thinking/hoping the 9a will go to D&G buses and the 19/19a to Stantons

 

[RELL6L]

I am just totally lost for words with the forthcoming changes, they can only be drawn up by someone with a self-destruct mission for First Potteries.

Let's start with the 38/A, 39/A and 103.

The 38 is to be the clockwise circular covering what is now the 3A and 4A. At present they start from Hanley as a 4A, a short pause in Newcastle, then at Talke Pits become a 3A with no pause to go back to Hanley. The circuit takes 1hr 35 minutes. With the new timetable, as a 38, the terminus is Talke Pits (aka Butte Lane), then to Hanley with about 5 minutes there, another 5 minutes or so at Newcastle and back to Talke Pits. Assuming they continue to go round they wait for between 5 and 15 minutes before continuing. Astonishingly this now takes typically 2hrs 10 minutes to get round! Why would anyone want to sit at Butte Lane (no disrespect to the location intended) for so long on a journey from Chesterton (say dep 14.11) to Kidsgrove (arr 14.56) - currently it takes 24 minutes. Looks like 4 buses on the 38 so the frequency is about every 35 minutes, but varying between 27 and 42. The 39 is the same in reverse but here the journeys break at Kidsgrove instead of Talke Pits. Another 4 buses required making 8 for the 38/39.

We then have the 38A and 39A. The 38A is clockwise but not all the way round. From Talke Pits (Butte Lane) it follows the 38 all the way round through Hanley and Newcastle to Chesterton then diverges to what First call Waterhayes (but BusTimes calls Crackley). On arriving there it turns round and heads back as a 39A to Talke Pits. A round trip on 38A - 39A looks to take just over 3hrs 30 minutes so with the same frequency of around 35 minutes - these journeys slotting between the 38/39s - I reckon there are 7 buses required.

Finally we have the 103 replacing the Crewe journeys on the 3. Quite sensible to disengage them in a way as deckers can run on the rest of it. At present a round trip takes 2hr 30 mins between leaving Hanley and arriving back. On the new 103, which as far as I can see is the same, a round trip will be typically 2hr 40 mins. This looks like it will be stand alone with 5 vehicles so the frequency is about 35-40 minutes. But not working nicely in between 38/A/39/A journeys, more random.

I think that, at the moment, there are 16 buses on the 3A/4A circular combined with 3 to Crewe and 4 to Crackley - a full cycle takes 8 hours. Add 3 buses on the 3A Talke Pits shorts makes 19. The horrible new mess will, I think, be 20 buses - 8 on the 38/39, 7 on the 38A/39A and 5 on the 103. So that's one more for a terrible mess of a timetable. Unbelievable! Surely the new running times are way over the top - just stick to the current frequencies and feed the extra bus in at Hanley.

Also the 22, 98 and 99, which interwork at Newcastle, switch from each running a straight 30 minute frequency to about every 35 minutes. This is with the same resources but longer running times and longer times at termini.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I am just totally lost for words with the forthcoming changes, they can only be drawn up by someone with a self-destruct mission for First Potteries.

.....

I think that, at the moment, there are 16 buses on the 3A/4A circular combined with 3 to Crewe and 4 to Crackley - a full cycle takes 8 hours. Add 3 buses on the 3A Talke Pits shorts makes 19. The horrible new mess will, I think, be 20 buses - 8 on the 38/39, 7 on the 38A/39A and 5 on the 103. So that's one more for a terrible mess of a timetable. Unbelievable! Surely the new running times are way over the top - just stick to the current frequencies and feed the extra bus in at Hanley.

Also the 22, 98 and 99, which interwork at Newcastle, switch from each running a straight 30 minute frequency to about every 35 minutes. This is with the same resources but longer running times and longer times at termini.

Self-destruct mission or simply schedules for lazy (or non-existent) controllers. A network with so much running time and recovery time that, save for a nuclear strike on Hanley, buses will always be on time, there will never be a need for controllers to intervene!

I get to the same total of 20 buses for the combined 'Kidsgrove Circuit', one greater than at present. More resources for a worse service! At present there are six buses per hour offering a 10 minute 'turn up and go' service. From 1 September there are variously five or six buses per hour but effectively only offering a 15-20 minute frequency (one gap of 22 minutes), a 'turn up and phone an Uber' service. There are waits on the 38 of up to 17 minutes at Butt Lane (1431 to 1448), on the 39 of up to 23 minutes at Kidsgrove (1710 to 1733). Similar on the 38A/39A

The entire network is like that. Buses on the 6 sit for up to 20 minutes at Parkhall. On the 7A they sit for 19 minutes at Biddulph. The running time on the 6 at 1156 is 38 minutes, at 1300 it is 39 minutes, at 1403 it is 51 minutes. I know traffic is bad along Victoria Road and around Meir at peak times, but at 1400 in the afternoon, really?

 

[SSmith2009]

Self-destruct mission or simply schedules for lazy (or non-existent) controllers. A network with so much running time and recovery time that, save for a nuclear strike on Hanley, buses will always be on time, there will never be a need for controllers to intervene!

I get to the same total of 20 buses for the combined 'Kidsgrove Circuit', one greater than at present. More resources for a worse service! At present there are six buses per hour offering a 10 minute 'turn up and go' service. From 1 September there are variously five or six buses per hour but effectively only offering a 15-20 minute frequency (one gap of 22 minutes), a 'turn up and phone an Uber' service. There are waits on the 38 of up to 17 minutes at Butt Lane (1431 to 1448), on the 39 of up to 23 minutes at Kidsgrove (1710 to 1733). Similar on the 38A/39A

The entire network is like that. Buses on the 6 sit for up to 20 minutes at Parkhall. On the 7A they sit for 19 minutes at Biddulph. The running time on the 6 at 1156 is 38 minutes, at 1300 it is 39 minutes, at 1403 it is 51 minutes. I know traffic is bad along Victoria Road and around Meir at peak times, but at 1400 in the afternoon, really?

these AI produced timetables leave way too many gaps so you end up with buses having excessive waiting times.

All these random frequencies do is further lower passenger confidence in reliable services.

 

[RELL6L]

Self-destruct mission or simply schedules for lazy (or non-existent) controllers. A network with so much running time and recovery time that, save for a nuclear strike on Hanley, buses will always be on time, there will never be a need for controllers to intervene!

I get to the same total of 20 buses for the combined 'Kidsgrove Circuit', one greater than at present. More resources for a worse service! At present there are six buses per hour offering a 10 minute 'turn up and go' service. From 1 September there are variously five or six buses per hour but effectively only offering a 15-20 minute frequency (one gap of 22 minutes), a 'turn up and phone an Uber' service. There are waits on the 38 of up to 17 minutes at Butt Lane (1431 to 1448), on the 39 of up to 23 minutes at Kidsgrove (1710 to 1733). Similar on the 38A/39A

The entire network is like that. Buses on the 6 sit for up to 20 minutes at Parkhall. On the 7A they sit for 19 minutes at Biddulph. The running time on the 6 at 1156 is 38 minutes, at 1300 it is 39 minutes, at 1403 it is 51 minutes. I know traffic is bad along Victoria Road and around Meir at peak times, but at 1400 in the afternoon, really?

Seems crazy to change this to get such a worse service but using more resources. Was it broken anyway? Difficult to be sure as BusTimes precise timing is no longer available back in school term time but my quick look in early July suggests that generally vehicles were sticking to their boards- just can’t tell if they were on time or struggling. I still think it would have been better to keep the existing times and use the extra resources- if available- to keep a “hot” spare at Hanley which could go out anywhere if needed.

 

[Mugby]

When did First abandon Uttoxeter? I'm planning a journey and I see all services between Uttoxeter and Hanley now appear to be operated by D&G.

I'm sure I remember seeing First in Uttoxeter in the not too distant past, using double deckers too?

 

[Lewisham2221]

When did First abandon Uttoxeter? I'm planning a journey and I see all services between Uttoxeter and Hanley now appear to be operated by D&G.

I'm sure I remember seeing First in Uttoxeter in the not too distant past, using double deckers too?

Must be about 2 years ago. The double deckers were supposed to compensate for the drop in frequency when the additional Cheadle "shorts" were cut but D&G initially stepped in with the 32X Hanley - Cheadle - Tean which sort of replaced them and a lot of passenger switched to the D&G service. The double deckers largely ran around with occupancy rarely exceeding the mid-teens, bar certain journeys around school start/finish times. They survived rather much longer than anyone could really fathom, before eventually being culled, with D&G seemingly more than happy to step in and offer a replacement - largely maintaining a 30 minute frequency between Hanley and Cheadle/Tean too.

 

[43055]

Details and most of the timetables are now on the First Potteries website.

Service Changes from 1st September

From the 1st September we'll be introducing some changes to our services. These include cross-city links with our new 38 & 39 services, additional Sunday journeys on our 21, 22 and NEW 43 service as well as minor timetables changes to improve punctuality and reliability.

www.firstbus.co.uk

Service Changes:​

• Service 3 has been renumbered to 103 bringing it in line with our 101 (long distance & out of the area). This will run as a standalone service from Hanley - Crewe.
  
• Services 3A / 4 / 4A will be replaced by the 38 clockwise (Newcastle - Kidsgrove - Hanley) and 39 anti-clockwise (Hanley - Kidsgrove - Newcastle). Service 3A, that currently terminates at Butt Lane and Service 4, currently operating between Hanley - Waterhayes, will be replaced by a new 38a operating from Kidsgrove to Waterhayes and a 39a service operating the return journey from Waterhayes - Kidsgrove.

This new service pattern creates new cross-city links between the north of the city and Festival Park. We'll also be running some later journeys Monday - Saturday, creating evening links between Kidsgrove, Newcastle & Hanley.

(Please note: Service 38 will no longer serve Merrial Street in Newcastle due to the building work in the area. This aims to improve reliability, and will be revisited upon the completion of the work.)

• Service 6A will receive an additional journey Monday - Friday from Blythe Bridge at 6:03.
  
• Service 21 will introduce a new Sunday service between Hanley - Trentham, with the first journey from Hanley at 9:40 and from Trentham at 10:10. There will also be minor timetable changes Monday - Friday to improve punctuality.
  
• Service 22 will run with minor timetables changes to improve punctuality, with the last journey on Saturday continuing through to Longton from 1st September. A new Sunday service will operate starting at 9:30 from Newcastle & 10:07 from Longton.
  
• Service 23 will receive minor timetable changes to improve punctuality.
  
• Service 25 will receive timetable changes for the new university term.
  
• Service 43 will introduce a new Sunday service from Hanley - Milton starting from Adams Street in Milton at 9:32, with the first service of the day from Hanley bus station at 10:17.
  
• Service 98 & 99 will receive minor timetable changes to improve punctuality.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

When did First abandon Uttoxeter? I'm planning a journey and I see all services between Uttoxeter and Hanley now appear to be operated by D&G.

I'm sure I remember seeing First in Uttoxeter in the not too distant past, using double deckers too?

September 2022. Partial withdrawal (with partial D & G replacement) in September 2019.

 

[daodao]

Details and most of the timetables are now on the First Potteries website.

Service Changes from 1st September

From the 1st September we'll be introducing some changes to our services. These include cross-city links with our new 38 & 39 services, additional Sunday journeys on our 21, 22 and NEW 43 service as well as minor timetables changes to improve punctuality and reliability.

www.firstbus.co.uk

What is the logic behind these seemingly random irregular timetables? They are user-unfriendly as they are impossible to remember, compared to a bus running for example every 30 minutes at 12 and 42 minutes past each hour, and destroy connectivity with other regular interval public transport services. Other operators, including their local competitor D&G, do not use this approach.

 

[Mollman]

What is the logic behind these seemingly random irregular timetables? They are user-unfriendly as they are impossible to remember, compared to a bus running for example every 30 minutes at 12 and 42 minutes past each hour, and destroy connectivity with other regular interval public transport services. Other operators, including their local competitor D&G, do not use this approach.

There is no logic. The new way of scheduling appears to be feeding a load of data into an 'AI' scheduling programme which spews out a timetable based on the average running time for each individual journey it has been provided data for. Instead of using this as a guide it is seemingly applied as provided, meaning each journey is independent of others rather than having a set frequency and running time for peak, off peak etc.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

What is the logic behind these seemingly random irregular timetables? They are user-unfriendly as they are impossible to remember, compared to a bus running for example every 30 minutes at 12 and 42 minutes past each hour, and destroy connectivity with other regular interval public transport services. Other operators, including their local competitor D&G, do not use this approach.

One, erm, 'advantage' of the approach is that it allows First to hide service reductions except to those of us who look closely into such things! In some, but not all, cases the new schedules hide the fact that a number of trips have been lost over the course of the day. My local route, the 6A Hanley to Blythe Bridge, now has an average frequency of every 35 minutes, rather then every 30 minutes (measured 0711 to 1851 ex Blythe Bridge) with intervals between buses of 30 to 43 minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

Under the page for service changes, a map has appeared for the 38 etc services. They have got it wrong! If First don't know where their buses run how can they expect the public to.

 

[daodao]

One, erm, 'advantage' of the approach is that it allows First to hide service reductions

The Crewe route service frequency has dropped from every 30 minutes on Mon-Sat daytime to every 35-40 minutes. This compares to every 20 minutes, extended to Leighton Hospital, in the past. The lack of co-ordination of this route with the now separate local services from Hanley to Kidsgrove following introduction of the new timetables means that the actual interval between services on this busy segment of route could be up to 35 minutes at certain times.

 

[Redmike]

Taking Burslem to Hanley as an example, the new timetable has 74 journeys per day compared to 73 currently, however this seems to be from a couple of earlier buses and a better evening service.

Between 8am and 6pm there are currently 60 journeys from Burslem to Hanley this drops to 52 under the new timetable.

At present the average day time journey from Burslem to Hanley is 11 minutes, this increases to between 15 and 18 minutes next month.

The biggest gap I can see is a 22 minute gap between services from 1349 to 1411, there is also a 21 minute gap between departures from 0822 and 0843 - right in the middle of the rush hour.

A 103 and a 38 both leave Burslem for Hanley at 0920 but for some reason the 103 does the journey 1 minute quicker.

Currently if I go online looking for the timetables I only need to look up or print off 1 timetable, now I need to look up or print off 3 different timetables.

The majority of journeys will involve both longer waiting times and longer journey times. I can't see how this will encourage more passengers on board.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Taking Burslem to Hanley as an example, the new timetable has 74 journeys per day compared to 73 currently, however this seems to be from a couple of earlier buses and a better evening service.

Between 8am and 6pm there are currently 60 journeys from Burslem to Hanley this drops to 52 under the new timetable.

At present the average day time journey from Burslem to Hanley is 11 minutes, this increases to between 15 and 18 minutes next month.

The biggest gap I can see is a 22 minute gap between services from 1349 to 1411, there is also a 21 minute gap between departures from 0822 and 0843 - right in the middle of the rush hour.

A 103 and a 38 both leave Burslem for Hanley at 0920 but for some reason the 103 does the journey 1 minute quicker.

Currently if I go online looking for the timetables I only need to look up or print off 1 timetable, now I need to look up or print off 3 different timetables.

The majority of journeys will involve both longer waiting times and longer journey times. I can't see how this will encourage more passengers on board.

I would generally agree with your analysis. The September network review, which in effect is what it is, masks a substantial deterioration in the attractiveness of the service, albeit with some mysterious improvements such as later evening journeys. If there is going be an evening service, it needs to be provided consistently, not have one, then not, then have, then not. There is no point having (say) a last departure at 1830 (which people get used to, adjusting their personal arrangements accordingly), then at the push of a button it becomes 1900, then a short time later 1800 and so on.

I looked at the Hanley arrival / departure times rather than Burslem, the largest gaps being 22 minutes southbound (1407 to 1429) and 23 minutes northbound (0700 to 0723) or 20 minutes (1748 to 1808) but there are plenty of 18 or so minute gaps throughout the day. More resources for a poorer service! Currently a regular headway every 10 minutes (stretched occasionally to 15 minutes as peak times kick in). From September an entirely random headway. Even ignoring the 103 and taking the 38/39 as a service group the headways are all over the place.

Someone at First needs to get a grip whilst they still have some customers. I guess the person who bought the AI software (perhaps on the back of theoretical financial savings, perhaps also with a big personal salary bonus into the bargain) needs to be given the opportunity to pursue career opportunities in another industry. As has been said previously, these AI solutions only work where you have high frequency services. A change from 5 to 7 minutes between some buses in not that noticeable, a statistically identical change from 30 to 42 minutes between buses certainly is noticeable.

 

[Simon75]

Early reports from customers on various Facebook pages state , they are very confused with the changes

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Early reports from customers on various Facebook pages state , they are very confused with the changes

38A and 38C would be more logical (Anti-clockwise and Clockwise). Ditto 39A and 39C. It is illogical captain to have buses on the same route having different numbers for the out and return directions. If I go to work on a 38, I expect to go home on a 38!
As per the inner and outer circles in Birmingham 8A, 8C, 11A, 11C.

PS the map on the First website was corrected quickly for the route numbers/arrows but still suggests that the 38A starts at Kidsgrove (timetable says Butt Lane) and the 39A terminates at Kidsgrove (again timetable says Butt Lane).

 

[daodao]

It is illogical captain to have buses on the same route having different numbers for the out and return directions.

Why? Passengers get used to it. It seemed to work fine in Cardiff with the long-established route 21/23 circulars to Pantmawr via Rhiwbina/Whitchurch respectively, returning the opposite way, when I lived there 20+ years ago, and these routes are unchanged now.

 

[G760XRE]

Just a general wondering. As it appears elsewhere in the country that First are moving round fleets to standardise vehicle types, will Potteries be losing their 2 non MMC E200's (44511/44514). Or are these so similar to the MMCs engineering wise to make this not necessary? Operations such as Worcester, Essex, Eastern Counties & Cymru have a much larger concentration of this vehicle type.

 

[dodecahedron67]

For disposal I believe if I remember Andy Metcalfe (First fleet manager)’s post