First Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and West Lothian operations)

[Lothianbus703]

Do First Scotland East have any Caetano Nimbuses left and do we have any arrivals/departures?

 

[Volvodart]

They just acquired an Enviro200, which presumably replaces the one at Larbert once it is painted. That was the only one listed on a recent fleetlist.

 

[Observer]

Do First Scotland East have any Caetano Nimbuses left and do we have any arrivals/departures?

They just acquired an Enviro200, which presumably replaces the one at Larbert once it is painted. That was the only one listed on a recent fleetlist.

I saw the Caetano Nimbus yesterday, still working local services. If it still runs, it's staying around.

 

[Volvodart]

Elsewhere in First, all the remaining Darts are getting replaced with acquired Enviro200s.

 

[Lothianbus703]

I saw the Caetano Nimbus yesterday, still working local services. If it still runs, it's staying around.

Is it based at Livingston

 

[Jordan Adam]

Is it based at Livingston

The only one in use is 43871 which has been at Larbert for around a year now.

 

[ScotRail158725]

They just acquired an Enviro200, which presumably replaces the one at Larbert once it is painted. That was the only one listed on a recent fleetlist.

Theres a few more than just “an Enviro 200” i believe theres 5 or 6

 

[Volvodart]

Midland only had one Dart, what are the others replacing, Scanias?

 

[stevenedin]

Theres a few more than just “an Enviro 200” i believe theres 5 or 6

Are they from other First companies or bought externally? I noticed that First Essex had some ex Whitelaws of Stonehouse.

 

[jb66]

Just noticed its gone up to £3.95 from Uphall to Edinburgh for a single. Annoying if I dont need a return

 

[stevenedin]

Also the fare within Edinburgh is now £1.80 instead of £1.70 unless you use the X22 from Hermiston Park & Ride to the city centre it’s £1.25 single

 

[Volvodart]

Are they from other First companies or bought externally? I noticed that First Essex had some ex Whitelaws of Stonehouse.

Most, if not all, are from dealer stock that has been hired to various companies over the years,

 

[LiviCrazy]

Worth noting a tip my driver gave me the other day. On the app you can get unlimited L&M zone travel plus tram for £4.50 compared to the standard LM zone day ticket of £7.

 

[Volvodart]

It is way down at the bottom of the page on the app and you would not realise the area covered unless you clicked on it.

 

[LiviCrazy]

It is way down at the bottom of the page on the app and you would not realise the area covered unless you clicked on it.

Yep, only found it after he told me. Have always just bought on the bus but that’s a good saving.

 

[stevenedin]

Also the L&M zone ticket is now £55 for a month which is good value if you use it regularly.

 

[cammyeaston]

Also the fare within Edinburgh is now £1.80 instead of £1.70 unless you use the X22 from Hermiston Park & Ride to the city centre it’s £1.25 single

I sometimes travel between Waverley and Balgreen Road - obviously if I bought a Hermiston single from Waverley then I could get off at Balgreen Road without incident but if I bought a Hermiston to Waverley single on the app, would the ticket machine accept it boarding at Balgreen Road?

 

[GusB]

Could everyone please make sure that abbreviations and acronyms are explained in your posts. 'LM', 'L&M' etc. make no sense to anyone that's not 'in the know'.

 

[stevenedin]

I sometimes travel between Waverley and Balgreen Road - obviously if I bought a Hermiston single from Waverley then I could get off at Balgreen Road without incident but if I bought a Hermiston to Waverley single on the app, would the ticket machine accept it boarding at Balgreen Road?

I don’t think that you can buy single fares on the app. I’ve got on at Burtons Biscuits before and been charged the park and ride far but heading that way from Princes Street you will pay the full fare. I don’t know why they don’t just introduce the same fate for within Edinburgh and if word got out they could end up gaining a lot of users on the route from Lothian.

Could everyone please make sure that abbreviations and acronyms are explained in your posts. 'LM', 'L&M' etc. make no sense to anyone that's not 'in the know'.

Sorry I should’ve done that. If anyone wants to know what zones L and M are it is West Lothian and Edinburgh and also includes Shotts. Link to the map here https://www.firstbus.co.uk/uploads/maps/Scotland East Zones Network Map December 2020_0.pdf

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I have officially been put on placement at Livingston Depot.

My thoughts? There fleet is in a dilapidated condition to say the least and that view comes from being there only 1 week so far.

Driven several Streetlites this week, Cummins engined variants with emission lights on and derated performance, front suspension clunks and bangs and gearboxes with shocking retarders, oddly larburt depots Cummins or Daimler versions aren’t to bad, it seem certainly down to the engineering staff at Livingston but also perhaps Livingston are now being introverted where money is spent, also managed to get a drive in a few open-top brightbuses, for there age most of them are alright but most of them are super noisy when your sat up stairs on a tour.

I mentioned earlier in the week I had got an x28 from Edinburgh to Livingston, I’m afraid the competitor massively has the upper hand when it comes to there vehicles, undoubtedly, only one journey doing this and immediately this becomes clear.

The 400 MMCs have engine problems and can’t put there power down, and the B7RLEs are ok but worn something rotten, it’s not something that ultimately affects the willingness of people to use these services but it’s certainly an issue affecting driver morale at the depot, I can see entirely why a good few drivers have left for Lothian Country.

Whilst speaking to the First Drivers at Livingston there seems to be mixed feelings about the eventual outcome of the depot, some day that come the end of extra funding Lothiancountry will pull out and leave it to First, which to be honest I can’t see happening, not in the least.

The biggest problem if LC were to pull out is that First simply don’t have the staff to operate the amount of West Lothian to Edinburgh services that are needed especially if there is a train strike approaching or at the least a reduction in trains running.

I’ve been passing the x18 at Bathgate all week and it’s carrying significant loads during peak times and certainly enough off peak as well as continually passing the 280 and x28 along past Firsts Depot and along North Deans, I would say that LC are carrying more persons in Livingston than First are whilst the x22 is carrying fresh air more often, even the x38 is carrying more whilst I’ve passed this at kirkliston on the 63, unsurprisingly not to mention the x38 buses are derelict as well.

It is guaranteed that the only thing keeping Livingston, Bannockburn, Balfron & Larbert alive thus far is Brightbus, Council Tenders(service work & schools) and now a small minority of commercial passengers.

Livingston Depot is in poor condition also, I kid you not that the gents toilets have only 1 cubicle with a toilet seat, the rest missing one, the general atmosphere is an unmotivated one, sad times.

 

[PaulMc7]

Officially been put on placement at Livingston Depot.

My thoughts? There fleet is in a dilapidated condition to say the least.

Driven several streetlites this week, Cummins engined variants with emission lights on and derated performance, front suspension clunks and bangs and gearboxes with shocking retarders, oddly larburt depots Cummins or Daimler versions aren’t to bad, it seem certainly down to the engineering staff at Livingston but also perhaps Livingston are now being introverted where money is spent, also managed to get a drive in a few open-top brightbuses, for there age most of them are alright but most of them are super noisy when your sat up stairs on a tour.

I mentioned earlier in the week I had got an x28 from Edinburgh to Livingston, I’m afraid the competitor massively has the upper hand when it comes to there vehicles, undoubtedly!

The 400 MMCs have engine problems and can’t put there power down, and the B7RLEs are ok but worn something rotten, it’s not something that ultimately affects the willingness of people to use these services but it’s certainly an issue affecting drive morale at the depot, I can see entirely why a good few drivers have left for LC.

Whilst speaking to the First Drivers at Livingston there seems to be mixed feelings about the eventual outcome of the depot, some day that come the end of extra funding Lothiancountry will pull out and leave it to First, which to be honest I can’t see happening, not in the least.

The biggest problem if LC were to pull out is that First simply don’t have the staff to operate the amount of West Lothian to Edinburgh services that are needed especially if there is a train strike approaching or at the least a reduction in trains running.

I’ve been passing the x18 at Bathgate all week and it’s carrying significant loads during peaks times and certainly enough off peak as well as continually passing the 280 and x28 along past Firsts Depot and along North Deans, I would say that LC are carrying more persons in Livingston than First are whilst the x22 is carrying fresh air more often, even the x38 is carrying more whilst I’ve passed this at kirkliston on the 63, unsurprisingly not to mention the x38 buses are derelict as well.

It is guaranteed that the only thing keeping Livingston, Bannockburn & Larbert alive thus far is Brightbus, Council Tenders(service work & schools).

Livingston Depot is in poor condition also, I kid you not that the gents toilets have only 1 cubicle with a toilet seat, the rest missing one, the general atmosphere is an unmotivated one, sad times.

Thank you for your honest insight and honestly I'm surprised by absolutely none of it. If anyone will pull out it'll be First I think although I don't see it anytime soon really. It exists to drain away at Lothian Country in any way possible and to be honest the last 2 times I've been to Livingston I've seen more people getting on First buses than Lothian's especially the X25 and 26. Unfortunately now though the 26 seems to be the most hit bus along with the X24 for cuts.

Realistically they should use what they have for the stronger services and ditch the rest although going by the daily cancellations there aren't many drivers left to lose.

Interesting that today there's no notice of cancellations in West Lothian. Council services elsewhere beginning to be affected too.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Thank you for your honest insight and honestly I'm surprised by absolutely none of it. If anyone will pull out it'll be First I think although I don't see it anytime soon really. It exists to drain away at Lothian Country in any way possible and to be honest the last 2 times I've been to Livingston I've seen more people getting on First buses than Lothian's especially the X25 and 26. Unfortunately now though the 26 seems to be the most hit bus along with the X24 for cuts.

Realistically they should use what they have for the stronger services and ditch the rest although going by the daily cancellations there aren't many drivers left to lose.

Interesting that today there's no notice of cancellations in West Lothian. Council services elsewhere beginning to be affected too.

What it seems to be from what I’ve seen so far, nothing really has changed in the short term with regards to revenue for both First Scotland East or Lothian Country, the long term is less clear.

A double-edged sword so to speak for both operators.

Brightbus may help alleviate revenue losses at FSE-Livingston because of LC encroachment into the area with the subsequent drivers they have taken from FSE, but the bulk of brightbus revenue will be coming from Peak Tour Season where as the annual ridership of LC domestic services will mostly remain steady if not increase as they gain trust over FSE, unless FSE can gain driver numbers to challenge this, if LC now has a refined level of service in West Lothian regarding the amount of drivers they have for the service they say they can provide, that doesn’t look great on FSE’s part.

Whats been strange at FSE-Livingston for me, when you ask Livingston Drivers if they’d move on to LC, a lot of them say they absolutely wouldn’t because your “better with devil you know”, yet they simultaneously mope around constantly complaining about FSE.

It’s a strange scenario that honestly I haven’t come across mostly working in Glasgow Depots where pretty much all operators there are often down spoken about.

 

[PaulMc7]

When did Stirling/Falkirk get the cancellation feature? I've just noticed a 51 at Alloa showing as cancelled with the line through it.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It is guaranteed that the only thing keeping Livingston, Bannockburn, Balfron & Larbert alive thus far is Brightbus, Council Tenders(service work & schools) and now a small minority of commercial passengers.

This isn't a new thing, Midland has almost always run at a loss, it wasn't until more recently when they reduced some frequencies and lowered overall running costs that it started to breakeven. In contrast in 2017/18 West Lothian was the best performing area in terms of profit margins within FirstGroup, so there clearly is money to be made there, just not when there's two people trying to bite the same piece of cake.

If either operator were to pull out you'd hope an agreement could be made where drivers were given the option to transfer to the other company and then whichever company was left would increase their network to fill in the missing gaps (for First that would be introducing an X18 alternative). Although perhaps i'm being a bit too optimistic, i also know that some drivers would rather stay with the company that they're already at.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

This isn't a new thing, Midland has almost always run at a loss,

Yet they still cling to Larbert, Bannockburn and Balfron when it seems that Musselburgh was still running a profit yet they gave this away.

it wasn't until more recently when they reduced some frequencies and lowered overall running costs that it started to breakeven. In contrast in 2017/18 West Lothian was the best performing area in terms of profit margins within FirstGroup,

Contrary to this theres much belief that Glasgow be the most profitable operation in there Scottish for quite some time.

so there clearly is money to be made there, just not when there's two people trying to bite the same piece of cake.

Something privatisation has done has always divided recourses, I.e. drivers between different company depots.

If either operator were to pull out you'd hope an agreement could be made where drivers were given the option to transfer to the other company and then whichever company was left would increase their network to fill in the missing gaps (for First that would be introducing an X18 alternative).

Quite frankly, there’s more chance of Queen Lizzy abdicating.

Although perhaps i'm being a bit too optimistic, i also know that some drivers would rather stay with the company that they're already at.

The biggest problem if either pulled out.

 

[Observer]

Yet they still cling to Larbert, Bannockburn and Balfron when it seems that Musselburgh was still running a profit yet they gave this away.

To be fair an issue there is who would even want them? Stagecoach would never be allowed to take over. McGill's did buy Xplore Dundee, but they have a bad history of some takeovers not working out too well.

At least the fleet is in a better state than it used to be when investment never really happened aside from once in a blue moon. Gone are the days of the noticeable scrap line as you pass Larbert.

Livingston seems to be holding on rather well and isn't giving up to Lothian, despite peoples initial expectations that First would quickly throw up the white flag and retreat to the remaining depots.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Yet they still cling to Larbert, Bannockburn and Balfron when it seems that Musselburgh was still running a profit yet they gave this away.

There's much more growth potential when it comes to Midland compared to East Lothian and the situation there has been improving slowly

Contrary to this theres much belief that Glasgow be the most profitable operation in there Scottish for quite some time.

Profit and profit margins are two different things. In 2017/18 West Lothian had the best profit margin within FirstBus and services were seeing signifcant passenger increases, prior to then it was usually Aberdeen or Bristol iirc.

Something privatisation has done has always divided recourses, I.e. drivers between different company depots.

There's pros and cons to any system, privatisation opens up the market to competition which in many cases has been a good thing, the issue with West Lothian isn't that there's competition but that there's too much competition, thus there's too many buses running about and not enough people to fill them.

Quite frankly, there’s more chance of Queen Lizzy abdicating.

Indeed, which is why i said it's probably too optimistic.

 

[stevenedin]

The thing is that it’s better having too many buses than too little. They just need to work together to get people out of cars. That’s the problem. They need reliable frequent bus services from all bus operators to be able to entice anyone from their cars. West Lothian Council have their work cut out for them. The bus operators have provided the buses it’s just up to the council or government to do more to help promote that.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

The thing is that it’s better having too many buses than too little. They just need to work together to get people out of cars. That’s the problem. They need reliable frequent bus services from all bus operators to be able to entice anyone from their cars. West Lothian Council have their work cut out for them. The bus operators have provided the buses it’s just up to the council or government to do more to help promote that.

I don’t have a problem with getting people out of cars and into buses, but if I’m being brutally honest from a drivers point of view it’s something I’d prefer First to lose on now. Internally speaking, the bits that the passengers don’t care about or see are the bits that the company has proven that they can’t change. Managers are a big bugbear in this issue and it’s now the dominant reason they're not getting the employees, not covid or brexit.

I’ve worked for First on and off for years now, on both short and long term employment and I have seen very little to suggest that they can do right, quite frankly.

My recent placement at Livingston has critically shone light on this.

Around the rumour mill this week is that Livingston is to get a new fleet. What I take that to mean is that Brightbus will likely get new buses and the rest of the fleet at Livingston hang in the balance.

I’ve only ever driven Streetlites at Larbert and Livingston, and by far and away Livingston hasn’t done great in this regard.

What I would say is that having more private and dissected operators is ultimately poor for passengers. Often your tickets can’t cross both operators. Personally for me it would seem that it isn’t appropriate that have this in the long term.

I live in an area where I have multiple operators so if I were to buy a weekly ticket I am restricted by where I can go on what services.

There's much more growth potential when it comes to Midland compared to East Lothian and the situation there has been improving slowly

Profit and profit margins are two different things. In 2017/18 West Lothian had the best profit margin within FirstBus and services were seeing signifcant passenger increases, prior to then it was usually Aberdeen or Bristol iirc.

There's pros and cons to any system, privatisation opens up the market to competition which in many cases has been a good thing, the issue with West Lothian isn't that there's competition but that there's too much competition, thus there's too many buses running about and not enough people to fill them.

Indeed, which is why i said it's probably too optimistic.

I’m no business man but from what I under stand.

If two companies for example, company red & company green both make revenue of £1m, but company red makes £100k profit and company green makes £120k profit then company green is operatiing on a higher % of profit? Likely signifying that Company Green has less operating costs therefore keeps more if it’s money taken?

If company green above is/was to the same degree as First Livingston prior to COVID or LothianCountry moving in to West Lothian then surely that on makes it so much more relevant that First aren’t and have not pulled there weight to show there staff especially that they care.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Livingston were due some new buses to replace the older stock on the X38 since the Streetlites don’t seem to be very suitable/reliable. Perhaps they may go electric since First pledged not to order anymore diesel buses.