First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[TheGrandWazoo]

OK then, CC are trying something new and innovative. A council that is adding services and building a bigger bus network is rare these days and should be encouraged not dismissed

Let me know when Kernow or any other operator linked Redruth and Newquay or Truro and Newquay Airport, and run later services in the evenings and on Sundays on many routes. GCB is trying to deliver routes and services at times we haven't seen, and hopefully it will get even better

Yes there will be more to the 2020 vision, Marc said on Twitter registrations will come in three batches, obviously the first lot is for the tourist summer months, the next two should be the more long term, all year round ones

I certainly would welcome councils supporting and developing networks. Again, that’s not the point.

Aside from the Redruth to Newquay service, I’m struggling to see what is either innovative or logical. The others are either direct replacements for FK tenders OR modest frequency increases. Making the Pentire service hourly instead of two hourly is good but is it transformative?

Meanwhile, a bus across Bodmin Moor that serves nowhere seems odd. Same with Veryan to Snozzell or the Lostwithiel service. Yet the evening Tinners remain hourly and don’t serve St Ives? Surely enhancements to services like that would be more in line with supporting shift workers etc

There are some curious decisions and I’d be intrigued to understand how CC arrived at those decisions.

 

[jammy36]

Cornwall Council must be applauded for investing in bus services in a way that puts the majority of English councils to shame.

Clearly there are differences in opinion as to how innovative the services are and who is responsible for that innovation.

There is obviously a cost to all of this and one disappointment is that savings appear to be being made by (re) retendering the school bus contacts at a lower quality standard. This seems short sighted - the public perception of bus travel often lags behind the quality of service that is actually being delivered. If people's first experience of bus travel us life expired school buses (see https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/dads-fury-damp-mouldy-bus-3856765) then that battle is already lost.

 

[Goldfish62]

Cornwall Council must be applauded for investing in bus services in a way that puts the majority of English councils to shame.

Clearly there are differences in opinion as to how innovative the services are and who is responsible for that innovation.

There is obviously a cost to all of this and one disappointment is that savings appear to be being made by (re) retendering the school bus contacts at a lower quality standard. This seems short sighted - the public perception of bus travel often lags behind the quality of service that is actually being delivered. If people's first experience of bus travel us life expired school buses (see https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/dads-fury-damp-mouldy-bus-3856765) then that battle is already lost.

Christ, that bus is rank!

 

[richw]

Truro and Newquay Airport,

it’s been tried unsuccessfully in the past when the airport was busier!

Cornwall Council must be applauded for investing in bus services in a way that puts the majority of English councils to shame.

Clearly there are differences in opinion as to how innovative the services are and who is responsible for that innovation.

There is obviously a cost to all of this and one disappointment is that savings appear to be being made by (re) retendering the school bus contacts at a lower quality standard. This seems short sighted - the public perception of bus travel often lags behind the quality of service that is actually being delivered. If people's first experience of bus travel us life expired school buses (see https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/dads-fury-damp-mouldy-bus-3856765) then that battle is already lost.

that’s a rosevidney bus. And I agree shouldn’t be in use like that

 

[MB162435]

I certainly would welcome councils supporting and developing networks. Again, that’s not the point.

Aside from the Redruth to Newquay service, I’m struggling to see what is either innovative or logical. The others are either direct replacements for FK tenders OR modest frequency increases. Making the Pentire service hourly instead of two hourly is good but is it transformative?

Meanwhile, a bus across Bodmin Moor that serves nowhere seems odd. Same with Veryan to Snozzell or the Lostwithiel service. Yet the evening Tinners remain hourly and don’t serve St Ives? Surely enhancements to services like that would be more in line with supporting shift workers etc

There are some curious decisions and I’d be intrigued to understand how CC arrived at those decisions.

What is also logical is that GCB services are actually going to use the Park and ride facility at St Erth for all services which kernow hasn't really used apart from the A17 and for the summer A2

Certainly agree with you in regards to the Tinner services, as much as I am a fan of what GCB will bring at the end of March, they certainly missed an opportunity with the Tinner services, out of all the services they are taking over surely the Tinner is where they have the greatest chance of making money, espicially in the summer months

Although, maybe they are also going to take Kernow's approach and add commercial and some more Council services in May or September?

 

[MB162435]

it’s been tried unsuccessfully in the past when the airport was busier!



that’s a rosevidney bus. And I agree shouldn’t be in use like that

Who did the Truro- Newquay Airport service?

Glad the Airport is going to have a fairly regualr bus service now, hasn't been touched apart from the A5

 

[Summers510]

Who did the Truro- Newquay Airport service?

Glad the Airport is going to have a fairly regualr bus service now, hasn't been touched apart from the A5

It was Western Greyhound, very original 737 service number, with a former London Airbus. I drove it a few times, very poor loadings, didn't last very long

 

[Nickincornwall]

Are you saying you have seen the tender docs? If so then fair enough.

Look at my post is what I am saying it explains how tenders work

 

[Goldfish62]

Look at my post is what I am saying it explains how tenders work

You've lost me. Please point to what you mean.

I know how tenders work. I used to issue them and evaluate the bids.

 

[MB162435]

It was Western Greyhound, very original 737 service number, with a former London Airbus. I drove it a few times, very poor loadings, didn't last very long

Ah nice, the GCB services will evolve like all bus services be, they will all come and go, wouldn't be surprised once their contract ends, GCB will focus on commercial, and are just using the council services to build a customer support base and establish themselves down West, and be like Kernow they will both bid for it but neither will care if they win or not

2nd time lucky maybe?

 

[MrKnow]

What is also logical is that GCB services are actually going to use the Park and ride facility at St Erth for all services which kernow hasn't really used apart from the A17 and for the summer A2

Certainly agree with you in regards to the Tinner services, as much as I am a fan of what GCB will bring at the end of March, they certainly missed an opportunity with the Tinner services, out of all the services they are taking over surely the Tinner is where they have the greatest chance of making money, espicially in the summer months

Although, maybe they are also going to take Kernow's approach and add commercial and some more Council services in May or September?

The tinner services are commercial and only require subsidising by the council for a few trips in the evening. The contract is for subsidised services only although that’s not to say they can’t start up their own commercial services. Right now their main priority is to get drivers and vehicles to meet the demands of the contract which they inherit in just a months time!

 

[Nickincornwall]

You've lost me. Please point to what you mean.

I know how tenders work. I used to issue them and evaluate the bids.

Then you will know that the original specification is not necessarily the end contract

 

[Nickincornwall]

I certainly agree with your comments about the council. Of all the non-metropolitan local authorities in England it has to easily be one of the most positive in respect of improving public transport. Cornwall's bus network would be a shadow of its current self if CC behaved like, eg Somerset or Northamptonshire.

I haven't seen the tender so I don't know what the service specs were, but if I'm reading this right you're inferring that GCB bid with frequencies and later journeys over and above the service specs?

Talking of Newquay Airport to Truro railway station, what's happened to that? I haven't seen it registered.

Yes you have received my point loud and clear

 

[richw]

What is also logical is that GCB services are actually going to use the Park and ride facility at St Erth for all services which kernow hasn't really used apart from the A17 and for the summer A2
?

It was timed by first to add 8 mins per round trip. There isn’t slack in the tinner timetable to add that, and would have over the course of the day required 2 additional vehicles to the tinner duties.

 

[richw]

Who did the Truro- Newquay Airport service?

Glad the Airport is going to have a fairly regualr bus service now, hasn't been touched apart from the A5

Western greyhound, who also did a st Austell Lostwithiel Bodmin which was a failure and picked up nobody in Lostwithiel on most occasions and was also scrapped as a failure. Neither have been registered as yet by Go Ahead

 

[MrKnow]

No that's one of your assumptions again

To give people security, so they know there services will be safe long term, so they know they can get to work and keep the shifts they currently do. I often do early or late shifts, so often catch the early or late night services, so I would like to know what the future hold for them.

yes some will be coach work, but if most of the 2020 vision is coach work, what's the point of selling it to all your customers, you hardly are going to use Truronian to get to work?

Let’s not forget the general public aren’t loosing out here as it’s very much the intention of the council and PCB to enhance the current services already in place as well as adding to those with new ones. As for First K’s commercial network that is something that can only get better as those are the routes that make the money at the end of the day. One good thing to come from all this is that there will be more buses whether it’s a red one or green one for the people of Cornwall

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes you have received my point loud and clear

Thanks. That makes sense in the context of the award.

 

[Busaholic]

It was timed by first to add 8 mins per round trip. There isn’t slack in the tinner timetable to add that, and would have over the course of the day required 2 additional vehicles to the tinner duties.

I can quite understand why First estimated that figure in advance, but I've been quite surprised by how quickly, once you reach the St Erth traffic lights on the A30, you can get round to St Erth station and then back over the lights on to the A30. Cornwall Council have tweaked the lights sufficiently that you don't have to wait long to get back onto the A30, admittedly at the expense of traffic on the A30, which southbound in the tourist season can trail back along the Hayle by-pass almost to Loggan's Moor (happily the T1 doesn't go that way). I'm not saying serving St Erth station and P&R still wouldn't require extra resources, though.

 

[richw]

I can quite understand why First estimated that figure in advance, but I've been quite surprised by how quickly, once you reach the St Erth traffic lights on the A30, you can get round to St Erth station and then back over the lights on to the A30. Cornwall Council have tweaked the lights sufficiently that you don't have to wait long to get back onto the A30, admittedly at the expense of traffic on the A30, which southbound in the tourist season can trail back along the Hayle by-pass almost to Loggan's Moor (happily the T1 doesn't go that way). I'm not saying serving St Erth station and P&R still wouldn't require extra resources, though.

it was trialled properly and 4 mins each direction was the actual time taken

 

[MB162435]

It was timed by first to add 8 mins per round trip. There isn’t slack in the tinner timetable to add that, and would have over the course of the day required 2 additional vehicles to the tinner duties.

Yeah on Kernow's side that wouldn't be worth it, I 'm guessing they assumed most passengers waiting at St Erth will either go to St Ives or Penzance and that the A2, A17 alongside rail services would be sufficient

Did the A2 and A17 vehicle requirement go up as well by going into St Erth?

 

[Busaholic]

it was trialled properly and 4 mins each direction was the actual time taken

They've definitely altered the traffic light timings since it began, in my own experience. If you just missed the lights coming up from the station, you had to wait what seemed an age, but, this very afternoon for instance, I saw the light go red, slowed and changed down to first gear, but hardly had time to pull my handbrake on before red and yellow appeared again.

 

[MB162435]

Western greyhound, who also did a st Austell Lostwithiel Bodmin which was a failure and picked up nobody in Lostwithiel on most occasions and was also scrapped as a failure. Neither have been registered as yet by Go Ahead

A game of trial and error for all operators I suppose

Is the September timetable change the opportunity for GCB and Kernow to tweak services, guessing the May timetable registrations are already in?

 

[richw]

Yeah on Kernow's side that wouldn't be worth it, I 'm guessing they assumed most passengers waiting at St Erth will either go to St Ives or Penzance and that the A2, A17 alongside rail services would be sufficient

Did the A2 and A17 vehicle requirement go up as well by going into St Erth?

The A2/17 both had enough time to fit it in.

A game of trial and error for all operators I suppose

Is the September timetable change the opportunity for GCB and Kernow to tweak services, guessing the May timetable registrations are already in?

20th March is the 42 days for the TC from 1st May. All depends when in May the changes will be effective though. Late bank holiday would be a safe bet based on previous years (we’ve not been supplied details of May yet as it’s not for public until the 42 days timeframe) pretty safe to say they won’t be in for another month yet

 

[MB162435]

The A2/17 both had enough time to fit it in.



20th March is the 42 days for the TC from 1st May. All depends when in May the changes will be effective though. Late bank holiday would be a safe bet based on previous years (we’ve not been supplied details of May yet as it’s not for public until the 42 days timeframe) pretty safe to say they won’t be in for another month yet

So plenty of time for them to see how the new services go then, 25th May is the end date on the current timetable books so the 26th possibly?

 

[MB162435]

Let’s not forget the general public aren’t loosing out here as it’s very much the intention of the council and PCB to enhance the current services already in place as well as adding to those with new ones. As for First K’s commercial network that is something that can only get better as those are the routes that make the money at the end of the day. One good thing to come from all this is that there will be more buses whether it’s a red one or green one for the people of Cornwall

Indeed, especially those living in rural areas where currently they might have a bus every few hours, now have two operators with an hourly or even half hourly services

 

[embers25]

I certainly would welcome councils supporting and developing networks. Again, that’s not the point.

Aside from the Redruth to Newquay service, I’m struggling to see what is either innovative or logical. The others are either direct replacements for FK tenders OR modest frequency increases. Making the Pentire service hourly instead of two hourly is good but is it transformative?

Meanwhile, a bus across Bodmin Moor that serves nowhere seems odd. Same with Veryan to Snozzell or the Lostwithiel service. Yet the evening Tinners remain hourly and don’t serve St Ives? Surely enhancements to services like that would be more in line with supporting shift workers etc

There are some curious decisions and I’d be intrigued to understand how CC arrived at those decisions.

The 510 loadings demonstrated perfrectly the futilty of Okehampton-Launceston-Camelford-Newquay, however useful it was for me. Hourly to St Mawes and the ridiculous Veryan-St Austell show just how poorly thought out these changes are and whatever the GCB fans say, any new services are Cornwall Council ideas and not GCB. At this stage GCB are just replicating what GCB requested, except for positioning moves. I also note that connections between the 6A and the buses further west in Launceston are truly awful.

Once Kernow and Stagecoach have finalised everything they will run, the rest that is left will end up being a very expensive Cornwall mistake (not the first Cornwall have made to be honest). Also, to those saying Cornwall are being innovative, they are not, they have been handed Government cash and are highlighting exactly the problem of Governments giving councillors wads of cash to spend on buses that they clearly have no clue about. I'd love to be proved wrong, but on the evidence thus far, this will be a very costly mistake that could put extra funding across the country in jeopardy (just like Buses for Sheffield has already highlighted all that is wrong with giving councils more power).

 

[embers25]

Indeed, especially those living in rural areas where currently they might have a bus every few hours, now have two operators with an hourly or even half hourly services

How many times do we have to explain that in this situation the council will have to withdraw if Kernow stay and so there will be no enhancement at all, as has been shown in Dorset where they tried the same and failed monumentally with HUGE frequency reductions and huge swathes without a bus at all. Passengers were clearly the winners there...not. Unless you are part of the PCB team, surely you can't be this niaive.

 

[richw]

Indeed, especially those living in rural areas where currently they might have a bus every few hours, now have two operators with an hourly or even half hourly services

don’t worry they won’t have such an increase. As per my previous post which you’ve seemingly taken no notice of, part of the tender and registration process is that if another operator then registers commercially, that tender and registration is withdrawn, unless the other operator wants to gamble on commercial too. That would be commercial suicide as they’d know the routes are perhaps marginally viable but certainly not viable if sharing the passenger load. The road between Newquay and padstow can’t take so many buses meeting all over the place as was discovered when A2B tried a few summers back. It caused absolute chaos on the coast road.

 

[MrKnow]

How many times do we have to explain that in this situation the council will have to withdraw if Kernow stay and so there will be no enhancement at all, as has been shown in Dorset where they tried the same and failed monumentally with HUGE frequency reductions and huge swathes without a bus at all. Passengers were clearly the winners there...not. Unless you are part of the PCB team, surely you can't be this niaive.

The Helston - Lizard service is definitely being enhanced with First running an hourly service from Truro via Helston to The Lizard during the day time with Citybus increasing the current frequency of every 2 hours from Redruth - The Lizard to hourly as well as bringing the late bus back. True that Citybus won't be able to rely on the Council subsidy but it in a region of Cornwall where very few people use the bus its suprising that First have all of a sudden registered the service as commercial. Time will inevitably tell how it pans out with both operators.

 

[MB162435]

The Helston - Lizard service is definitely being enhanced with First running an hourly service from Truro via Helston to The Lizard during the day time with Citybus increasing the current frequency of every 2 hours from Redruth - The Lizard to hourly as well as bringing the late bus back. True that Citybus won't be able to rely on the Council subsidy but it in a region of Cornwall where very few people use the bus its suprising that First have all of a sudden registered the service as commercial. Time will inevitably tell how it pans out with both operators.

That was one of the places I was referring to, along with St Day and many other towns and villages but everyone else got on their high horses as usual