First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[Whiteway215]

It was mentioned by First that the electric double-deckers are to be for the 21/21A/22 with the single-deckers being for Taunton 1 & 2 and the 28.



The above is taken from here - https://news-ssandsw.firstbus.co.uk...ication-projects-pave-way-for-green-bus-fleet

That news release says the buses will start operating "from Spring 2025" but I was slightly surprised that there was no update on this, or anything else relating to the electric buses, during the meeting of the Bus Advisory Board (Somerset Council) on 28th January. I wonder where the Enviro400 deckers will go once the electrics come in: I guess they might keep some for any school and college services but I think they will continue to see service on the 30 and 54 routes as well. I look forward to trying the U11DD buses as a taste of the future before Bristol gets them later in the year.

Dave

The E400s are getting on in years so perhaps some in a rough condition might even be withdrawn rather than transferred away.

 

[Goldfish62]

The E400s are getting on in years so perhaps some in a rough condition might even be withdrawn rather than transferred away.

I'd be surprised if they were transferred elsewhere in the group.

 

[DaveHarries]

The E400s are getting on in years so perhaps some in a rough condition might even be withdrawn rather than transferred away.

I'd be surprised if they were transferred elsewhere in the group.

Who knows. Although the news release mentioned in my earlier post - #21,030 - says the order is for 26 vehicles that is for Taunton and Minehead combined. The national release about the order from First says the order is for 25 vehicles, namely:

13 single deckers, 12 double-deckers

(see https://news.firstbus.co.uk/news/fi...-operations-after-dft-zebra-2-funding-success)

I don't know what the combined PVR of the 21, 21A, 22 and 22A would be but they would want to have one or two spare in case of a vehicle failure. Although it is possible that the odd U11DD might find its way out of Taunton on a route other than the 21s or 22s I think some E400s may be kept for the 30s and 54s. The 13 single-deckers will be split between the Taunton 1 & 2 and the Taunton - Minehead 28 meaning that Minehead depot will take some of the singles: those for the 28 will be Yutong E12 I believe.

I don wonder how easy the E12s will be to get through Cotford St. Luke which is covered by the 28A: some of those roads look a bit narrow to be but that is based on Google StreetView so I may be wrong. I am surprised that the bus frequency through CSL isn't higher and I know what I would do about that if given the chance.

Dave

 

[vla50]

I'd be surprised if they were transferred elsewhere in the group.

Wouldn't be surprised if they were transferred - Euro 6 engined and two just had work done on their engines in Weymouth. Can see these being used in the short term to aid fleet rationalisation efforts.

 

[stuu]

I don wonder how easy the E12s will be to get through Cotford St. Luke which is covered by the 28A: some of those roads look a bit narrow to be but that is based on Google StreetView so I may be wrong. I am surprised that the bus frequency through CSL isn't higher and I know what I would do about that if given the chance.

Dave

The route through Cotford isn't any narrower than through Bishops Lydeard or Washford. Buses aren't my thing but I am interested in the network round here... The current buses are as big as single deckers get, in my layman's opinion. How big are the electric ones?

 

[Goldfish62]

The route through Cotford isn't any narrower than through Bishops Lydeard or Washford. Buses aren't my thing but I am interested in the network round here... The current buses are as big as single deckers get, in my layman's opinion. How big are the electric ones?

12m. The common standard length for a heavyweight single decker.

If you're referring to the E200s, they're around 10.6m, a mid-length single decker.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don wonder how easy the E12s will be to get through Cotford St. Luke which is covered by the 28A: some of those roads look a bit narrow to be but that is based on Google StreetView so I may be wrong. I am surprised that the bus frequency through CSL isn't higher and I know what I would do about that if given the chance.

The 25 did have a higher frequency but that was reduced probably 2018, when the 54 and 77 were also reduced. The place is quite car centric though. Last time I went through, it was on a decker.

In the mists of time (about 25 years ago), the 25 ran every hour between Taunton and Wiveliscombe. It was only when the rural bus money came along that someone decided to introduce a route (307?) from Barnstaple to Taunton that covered some of the same route. When funds were withdrawn, the 25 was a partial replacement to Dulverton but at the expense of the Taunton to Wiveliscombe route.

Wouldn't be surprised if they were transferred - Euro 6 engined and two just had work done on their engines in Weymouth. Can see these being used in the short term to aid fleet rationalisation efforts.

Euro VI isn't really the big issue now as there's lots of modified vehicles along with electrics, and all the CAZs are now complied with.

The 59 plates might be retained (bit newer, possibly some outstanding book value) but the 08/58 ones are not exactly the nicest inside.

 

[M803UYA]

In the mists of time (about 25 years ago), the 25 ran every hour between Taunton and Wiveliscombe. It was only when the rural bus money came along that someone decided to introduce a route (307?) from Barnstaple to Taunton that covered some of the same route. When funds were withdrawn, the 25 was a partial replacement to Dulverton but at the expense of the Taunton to Wiveliscombe route.

It was around 1998 the 307 went to Taunton. The South Molton-Barnstaple section was viable in it's own right as was the Wiveliscombe to Taunton part under Southern National. It's the sort of service you'd assume a National Park would assist with and a forward thinking bus operator might exploit the fact the route is a gateway to Exmoor from either side. It's the sort of thing Stagecoach would have branded 'Exmoor Explorer' and run it a minimum of hourly in high summer...

 

[Callum15632]

37255 YN07 MKP has transferred from First West Of England (Weston Super Mare) to First Kernow (Summercourt) and 53863 was due to be heading to Bath but didn't make it there as it caught fire on the A30.

 

[Goldfish62]

37255 YN07 MKP has transferred from First West Of England (Weston Super Mare) to First Kernow (Summercourt) and 53863 was due to be heading to Bath but didn't make it there as it caught fire on the A30.

Seems that it's completely destroyed.

 

[fgwrich]

A somewhat surprising transfer as it’s a rather old B9 - not exactly offering much between some of the late B7s since departed and that one attempting to arrive.

 

[Whiteway215]

A somewhat surprising transfer as it’s a rather old B9 - not exactly offering much between some of the late B7s since departed and that one attempting to arrive.

Perhaps the idea behind the transfer was to extend the number of different liveries that flourish at First South West!

 

[JD2168]

A somewhat surprising transfer as it’s a rather old B9 - not exactly offering much between some of the late B7s since departed and that one attempting to arrive.

It is Euro6 so will be able to run any contracts that have specific emissions requirements.

 

[Snozzel]

Perhaps the idea behind the transfer was to extend the number of different liveries that flourish at First South West!

From w.s.m but sporting a large york advert on the back to add to the confusion if its the one i saw.

 

[vla50]

A comment was made on Facebook that a B9 was heading southbound down the M5 in Jurassic Coaster livery (suspect that’s 37998 being referred to?) so looks as if that’s yet another replacement B9 making the move! I imagine once the E400 Cities transfer down from Glasgow the remaining Jurassic B9s will follow

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A somewhat surprising transfer as it’s a rather old B9 - not exactly offering much between some of the late B7s since departed and that one attempting to arrive.

I'd expect that it has some time left on its ticket and that transferring it is cheaper than doing the work to get a B7 through its test?

 

[OptareOlympus]

With several displaced Lands End B9s now at Weymouth, it will be interesting to see if this summer will also be the final year of open top operation in Dorset. The understandable reason given for withdrawing a fleet only used for four months of the year in Cornwall is also true for Weymouth.

 

[Goldfish62]

With several displaced Lands End B9s now at Weymouth, it will be interesting to see if this summer will also be the final year of open top operation in Dorset. The understandable reason given for withdrawing a fleet only used for four months of the year in Cornwall is also true for Weymouth.

The fact that First Hampshire and Dorset is making a healthy profit, while First South West is making a significant loss is likely to make the calculations completely different.

It's actually around six months a year the open toppers were used for, not four.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2025 ==

First have broken cover about the removal of the open toppers:

Open tops - Cornwall

This year we will be removing open top buses from our network in Cornwall and instead replacing them with covered double deckers. This means the buses will be able to run in all weathers, as well as continuing to serve the local communities who also use them in Cornwall.

www.firstbus.co.uk

This year we will be removing open top buses from our network in Cornwall and instead replacing them with covered double deckers. This means the buses will be able to run in all weathers, as well as continuing to serve the local communities who also use them in Cornwall.

“We know the open top buses are well loved and this isn’t any easy decision, but we can’t afford to retain more vehicles than needed if the revenue doesn’t cover their costs. Unfortunately, a significant reduction in Cornish tourism last year, added to falling passenger demand and rising cost, has made running these open top buses commercially unviable.

“We are committed to providing bus and coach services to residents and visitors in Cornwall and we are proud of our longstanding history in the county. Plans for our bi-annual network change in April are currently being finalised with Cornwall Council, and we will announce details of all routes in March.

Certainly, Cornwall tourism did have a poor year last year and a lot of businesses suffered as a result. Whether that is a trend or a blip remains to be seen.

 

[M803UYA]

The fact that First Hampshire and Dorset is making a healthy profit, while First South West is making a significant loss is likely to make the calculations completely different.

It's actually around six months a year the open toppers were used for, not four.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2025 ==

First have broken cover about the removal of the open toppers:

Open tops - Cornwall

This year we will be removing open top buses from our network in Cornwall and instead replacing them with covered double deckers. This means the buses will be able to run in all weathers, as well as continuing to serve the local communities who also use them in Cornwall.

www.firstbus.co.uk

Certainly, Cornwall tourism did have a poor year last year and a lot of businesses suffered as a result. Whether that is a trend or a blip remains to be seen.

I am rather glad I did the route last summer then....

Photo of air conditioned Volvo B9TL below....

 

[Lizard1324]

Anyone know what electric buses the Truro park and ride will be receiving

 

[OptareOlympus]

Certainly, Cornwall tourism did have a poor year last year and a lot of businesses suffered as a result. Whether that is a trend or a blip remains to be seen.

Given the unprecedented speed at which this government is destroying our economy, I'd lay a tenner that last years tourism numbers will have been a dream compared to what's coming this year. The country is clearly already in recession and how many hospitality businesses in Cornwall will even still be trading by May given the anti business and job destroying budget measures that come into effect in April?

With the deep trouble the country is now in, First's decision to cut their losses on the open tops is looking a better call with each day that passes.

 

[Goldfish62]

Anyone know what electric buses the Truro park and ride will be receiving

There was a Portsmouth Electroliner on brief loan for evaluation recently.

 

[DaveLondon]

Given the unprecedented speed at which this government is destroying our economy, I'd lay a tenner that last years tourism numbers will have been a dream compared to what's coming this year. The country is clearly already in recession and how many hospitality businesses in Cornwall will even still be trading by May given the anti business and job destroying budget measures that come into effect in April?

With the deep trouble the country is now in, First's decision to cut their losses on the open tops is looking a better call with each day that passes.

I do feel that your comment is unecessarily political as well as being somewhat ill informed. The previous Government and the current Government cannot control the weather.. It was widely reported that after Brexit many accommodation owners hiked their prices a huge amount and what appears to have been greed and this has probably hit them hard last year as going abroad (which we can now) is way cheaper! Plenty of open toppers in Malta and othewr places!

I am sad the use of open toppers has ceased in Cornwall but they have always been "marginal"in view of the extra vehicles needing to be kept.

 

[OptareOlympus]

I do feel that your comment is unecessarily political as well as being somewhat ill informed. The previous Government and the current Government cannot control the weather.. It was widely reported that after Brexit many accommodation owners hiked their prices a huge amount and what appears to have been greed and this has probably hit them hard last year as going abroad (which we can now) is way cheaper! Plenty of open toppers in Malta and othewr places!

I am sad the use of open toppers has ceased in Cornwall but they have always been "marginal"in view of the extra vehicles needing to be kept.

Without going too far off topic, it was higher interest rates on buy to lets and holiday lets that forced "hosts' to increase rates. There was also an element of greed through complacency of high booking levels resulting from the staycation years of 2020/21 that pushed prices up. The weather hasn't been great the last couple of years but long settled summers are very few and far between in the UK.

The point that is being missed is that the open tops need to pay for their 12 months standing costs in realistically a 3 to 4 month season. The weather is unreliable and the economy is unpredictable but with all indicators pointing to declining demand, it seems a sensible decision to me.

 

[philthetube]

The reason why many people use the bus to Lands end is because it is open top service, I suspect passenger numbers will be massively down this year as all tourists with cars will use them instead.

 

[OptareOlympus]

The reason why many people use the bus to Lands end is because it is open top service, I suspect passenger numbers will be massively down this year as all tourists with cars will use them instead.

The reason many people use the bus to Lands End is because its free (for them at least). I doubt they'll drive and stump up the parking charges when their pass also scans on closed tops.

I've said before, First needed to choose. Either the Lands End Coaster is a premium tourist product with appropriate market led pricing or its a local bus service with free passes and poundshop passengers taking up seats for 4 hours at a time. I've been in the open top and sightseeing sector for 21 years and the seats need to be priced at a premium so when the sun shines and the crowds come, the operator can make hay. If you have 6 nice days in a season and your seats are occupied with reimbursement passengers to the exclusion of premium price (and cost covering) customers, then the product is ultimately doomed.

 

[DaveLondon]

Without going too far off topic, it was higher interest rates on buy to lets and holiday lets that forced "hosts' to increase rates. There was also an element of greed through complacency of high booking levels resulting from the staycation years of 2020/21 that pushed prices up. The weather hasn't been great the last couple of years but long settled summers are very few and far between in the UK.

The point that is being missed is that the open tops need to pay for their 12 months standing costs in realistically a 3 to 4 month season. The weather is unreliable and the economy is unpredictable but with all indicators pointing to declining demand, it seems a sensible decision to me.

Yes I agree the operation of open toppers is expensive as closed tops need to be retained when they aren't running.

Cornwall "overpriced" itself (as did parts of Dorset) and large areas "seized" up with traffic or poor infrastucture.

 

[OptareOlympus]

Yes I agree the operation of open toppers is expensive as closed tops need to be retained when they aren't

It's that those open toppers are utilising 15 yard spaces for 8 non revenue earning months of the year that could be used by assets that are sweating 38-52 weeks of the year and contributing £2 million plus a year in income. Land and yard space is becoming scarce and expensive and new sites are harder to build and open with endless environmental legislation. Withdrawing the open tops allows First to expand by 12-15 vehicles a year immediately.

You also have the issue of buses that sit idle for months on end being prone to mechanical issues and corrosion of wiring and units , even if stored undercover. These faults only show up once the vehicles have been commissioned for the season and return to use, hence the poor reliability of open top operation when services are seasonal and vehicles are mid life to elderly.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's that those open toppers are utilising 15 yard spaces for 8 non revenue earning months of the year

6 months. October - March.

 

[dgl]

And Dorset is not doing at all badly tourist wise, I work on a caravan site and we were busy from start to finish last year, busier it seemed than we'd ever been.