-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)
- Thread starter RPI
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Granted, I thought it had started earlier than this weekend.
But going from branded vehicles and branded timetables / stops etc to a somewhat tired ex Portsmouth enviro for the next few months, whilst looking pretty anonymous at the same time, isn’t exactly shouting tourist draw to me.
Yes how disappointing. No publicity and promo, no easy to find timetables (just buried on the website like a standard bus), no branded buses drawing awareness or intrigue. Plus no open tops which are also a draw and a poor timetable and it's hardly a surprise
The 11 (Portland Coaster) in Weymouth feels similar. Anonymous vehicles without branding, no branded timetables just a standard looking timetable, no printed timetable books and no promo online. A couple of years back there were printed guides at the train stations, shops, TICs and even advertising on local radio and social media. Hope loadings pick up and we don't hear they are being withdrawn due to poor usage. Plus there's the new 55 round Lulworth, Monkey World and Tank Museum. Virtually no publicity of this and no clear links on X54 timetable showing the link is possible - like they expect people to just turn up.
The 11 (Portland Coaster) in Weymouth feels similar. Anonymous vehicles without branding, no branded timetables just a standard looking timetable, no printed timetable books and no promo online. A couple of years back there were printed guides at the train stations, shops, TICs and even advertising on local radio and social media. Hope loadings pick up and we don't hear they are being withdrawn due to poor usage. Plus there's the new 55 round Lulworth, Monkey World and Tank Museum. Virtually no publicity of this and no clear links on X54 timetable showing the link is possible - like they expect people to just turn up.
I was just taking a look at this online (and noticed it on Facebook too).
Compare the difference (apologies, this is venturing into Dorset again) of Best Impressions from both Kernow and Dorset vs In house.
Wessex 2023
https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/default/files/public/node_images/wessex%20guide%20may23%20WEB_0.pdf
Kernow 2022
Wessex X53
First Kernow 17 / 17a
Exmoor Coaster
Exmoor Explorer
Particularly for the topic of conversation in this thread - how is the last one attractive or user friendly for a tourist route?
Nicer looking timetables for Somerset are on this page
www.firstbus.co.uk
Your bus times in Somerset
Routes Service 1/1E - Taunton town centre to & from Wellsprings | Priorswood Service 4 - Taunton town centre to & from Wheatley Crescent | Lane Estate
Flange Squeal
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Jul 2012
- Messages
- 1,565
I note the Exmoor Explorer (or Explore Exmoor as all but the first Ilfracombe bound timetable calls it) neater PDF file doesn’t promote the dates that open-toppers will run, so while it’s undoubtedly better presented I feel it still lacks a key bit of info and seems to be confused about what the route is called.Nicer looking timetables for Somerset are on this page
Your bus times in Somerset
Routes Service 1/1E - Taunton town centre to & from Wellsprings | Priorswood Service 4 - Taunton town centre to & from Wheatley Crescent | Lane Estate
Source: https://www.firstbus.co.uk/sites/de...erset network tt web mar25 explore exmoor.pdf
It does seem to be a bit odd - the nicer looking timetable being available from the same website as the cheap looking ones. And if you type the route into Google, the latter is the one that comes up first.
I presume the basic ones are computer generated are the same across the whole company are automatically appear in the timetable section
Some subsidiaries then produce their own nicer ones on a separate page
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
There is also a full leaflet, a slightly rebranded version of last years which may or may not be appearing in print
Well it's good to see that
Well it's good to see that leaflet! Gives hope the concept isn't completely dead!
I find it interesting that First Somerset website includes timetables and maps for the whole of Somerset including all the services run by First West of England. First WofE have taken over several routes from First Somerset in recent times centred on Wells. In contrast the CR6 from Yeovil is on the map, but for timetable it just says see First Wessex.
Last edited:
Deleted as it was the wrong thread
Last edited:
Personally and sadly I think First are not interested in South West anymore, particularly Cornwall and are just running it into the ground (close down mode I think they called it in Plymouth).
I think the loss of all the college contract work and reportedly more losses to come will sadly be the end for them in Cornwall.
IMHO I see a sale of Cornwall business in one way or another to Stagecoach being inevitable at some stage in the near future.
I think the loss of all the college contract work and reportedly more losses to come will sadly be the end for them in Cornwall.
IMHO I see a sale of Cornwall business in one way or another to Stagecoach being inevitable at some stage in the near future.
This strange concept of ‘running it into the ground’ again that gets used a lot round here but makes no business sense
Why would a company make their business worse? What they are doing is probably because they think it will make their business, at least the financial numbers, better
Why would a company make their business worse? What they are doing is probably because they think it will make their business, at least the financial numbers, better
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Exactly.
Do people actually think that a firm goes.... "we don't want this business so we'll run it into the ground but for no apparent reason, and to exacerbate things, we will do it over a protracted period to make the financial pain even greater"...
Getting away from the conspiracy theories, it is probably more along the lines of...
- Different management team with different views on how to do things
- Financial position has worsened (post Covid, impact of various fare capping schemes, impact of loss of Cornwall tenders) so trying to cut expenditure etc
- Operational challenges (Cornwall College contracts in Devon)
- Strategic reasons - Stagecoach being aggressive on their contract submissions (as remember, they have also done the same to Go Ahead's Callywith work) and perhaps a prelude to the next Cornwall contract package
Peter Philips
Member
- Joined
- 30 Jun 2016
- Messages
- 141
Why omit the actual timetable from the leaflet (probably the most important part along with its included route map) & doesn't the leaflet wrongly imply that the Ilfracombe - Lynmouth section is only served for five weeks in the peak Summer when the open-top buses operate?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Indeed - that is fair comment/observation. Not the first time they've done that IIRC with a QR code to scan - I think last year was similar. The other bit is clearly an error.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 11,890
It was indeed the same last year on all the Coaster routes. Roger French's view at the time was it was totally bonkers and I have to agree.
DaveHarries
Established Member
First SouthWest (Taunton) have put a message on Facebook advising of minor changes to Services 1 and 30. I think these arise, at least in part, from comments made at the April meeting of the Bus Advisory Board (Somerset Council):
Service 1 (Priorswood & Wellsprings): Reinstatement of 0622 from Town Centre
Service 30 (Taunton - Axminster): The 1700 from Taunton to depart at 1710, return trip also slightly retimed by 5 minutes.
Dave
Service 1 (Priorswood & Wellsprings): Reinstatement of 0622 from Town Centre
Service 30 (Taunton - Axminster): The 1700 from Taunton to depart at 1710, return trip also slightly retimed by 5 minutes.
Dave
I don't think they are deliberately doing that but as seen elsewhere in Firstbus, the old view of reducing cost no matter the impact on customers is back. See West Yorkshire where a service was reduced from every 30 to every 35 minutes (well the AI timetable version of every 35 minutes) to avoid extra resources being committed on a route that was once every 15 minutes.
There have been a few other instances where it would have been better for the local authorities if First had withdrawn a route but instead the frequency was cut during the day and journeys withdrawn at the margins
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It's my view as well. I can understand not printing timetables for local routes in Bristol, but where you have a clearly tourist orientated product and you're producing a promo leaflet, it makes no sense.
Yes thank you. Sorry I think my original post may have been worded badly. I never meant they were deliberately running the ops into the ground but merely managers not locally making decisions that is effectively running it into the ground and from that unless something major changes, dare I say it but managers in Cornwall making network decisions for the local network without interference from those in Hampshire whom know nothing of Cornwall ops I can only see one end I am afraid
It is, I think, obvious that First have been loosing money in Cornwall. Stagecoach will have noticed and I would not be surprised if their bids for the college contracts were priced as 'at cost', with no profit, as a hope to break into Cornwall and be prepared for what might become available. Go-Ahead are good at picking up or taking a route here and there and the network slowly expands until it forces a much bigger piece to come their way. Go South Coast and Oxford have several examples along with adding small companies when retirement sales make them available.
There doesn't seem to be any pride amongst the senior management at FSW anymore. The lack of programmed destination displays for the Exmoor Explorer shows just how far things have fallen.
It certainly is a shame, especially considering how ambitious the company was only a few year ago. I think that many of the now withdrawn Adventures By Bus routes could of made much more of a case for themselves if the smaller details had been given more consideration. Many of the ideas were very good, but they were let down in the finer details.
I have relatives in Exeter and i've used the Dartmoor Explorer more than any of the other ABB route. So i'll use it as an example; The route itself is stunning and the drivers were usally great (one young lad in particular). I have no doubts that if First had invested much more into the publicity of the route it would of generated a great deal more custom. However, this simply never materialised and it would often be halfway through the season before you'd see a local approach the driver and say "we've seen the bus a few times but couldn't find out much about it". You can't help but think if it took locals that long to find out about it, how many people on their weeks' holiday have been missed. The yearly route changes didn't help, and the final year was a disappointment. A hotchpotch of Solos and Streetlites with paper destinations in the window! It felt as if the route was a token gesture and had been given up on.
My final journey on the route sumed it up! A Plaxton Profile coach used on college contracts with the obligatory paper destination. It was a very enjoyable ride with the aforementioned driver treating the half-dozen or so passengers in the same vein as that of a coach excursion. In short; people on the front line doing their best, without the resources needed.
I've been on most of the Adventures By Bus routes, and although the DART was the one that was most apparently suffering from poor decision making. The same lack of consistency was common. The only route I've done that I considered to be a thoroughly thought-through product was the Exmoor Coaster. I will look forward to using it in a couple of weeks time. But if first impressions are anything to go by, I'm expected a definite drop in quality on par with former ABB routes.
It certainly is a shame, especially considering how ambitious the company was only a few year ago. I think that many of the now withdrawn Adventures By Bus routes could of made much more of a case for themselves if the smaller details had been given more consideration. Many of the ideas were very good, but they were let down in the finer details.
I have relatives in Exeter and i've used the Dartmoor Explorer more than any of the other ABB route. So i'll use it as an example; The route itself is stunning and the drivers were usally great (one young lad in particular). I have no doubts that if First had invested much more into the publicity of the route it would of generated a great deal more custom. However, this simply never materialised and it would often be halfway through the season before you'd see a local approach the driver and say "we've seen the bus a few times but couldn't find out much about it". You can't help but think if it took locals that long to find out about it, how many people on their weeks' holiday have been missed. The yearly route changes didn't help, and the final year was a disappointment. A hotchpotch of Solos and Streetlites with paper destinations in the window! It felt as if the route was a token gesture and had been given up on.
My final journey on the route sumed it up! A Plaxton Profile coach used on college contracts with the obligatory paper destination. It was a very enjoyable ride with the aforementioned driver treating the half-dozen or so passengers in the same vein as that of a coach excursion. In short; people on the front line doing their best, without the resources needed.
I've been on most of the Adventures By Bus routes, and although the DART was the one that was most apparently suffering from poor decision making. The same lack of consistency was common. The only route I've done that I considered to be a thoroughly thought-through product was the Exmoor Coaster. I will look forward to using it in a couple of weeks time. But if first impressions are anything to go by, I'm expected a definite drop in quality on par with former ABB routes.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 11,890
Being too remote was something that many predicted when First introduced its regional management structure.
Yes, First in Cornwall is obviously making huge losses. But that doesn't mean there's only one way to tackle the situation, unless it's such a basket case, in which case you'd want to be rid of ASAP.
I wonder how someone of the calibre of the late and very lamented Andrew Wickham (RIP) would tackle the Cornwall problem.
JKP
Member
As others have mentioned previously, it is not all that long until the Cornwall wide contract held by Plymouth Citybus is put out for retender. I would imagine that ideally First will want to remain in the county for the next couple of years and win the contract. I do not know how long the college contracts are for, but presumably Stagecoach in being successful will be looking to build on these contracts by winning the contract for the local bus routes thus achieving some integration much as Go have with the Callywith work.
Goldfish62
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 14 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 11,890
It was never offered as a single contract for the local bus services. Multiple lots, most of which were single routes were offered. PCB won by submitting a package bid for the whole lot which was more economically advantageous than any other combination of bids received. It was a very high risk strategy as submitting a package bid barred PCB from also submitting any individual bids. If PCB had not won anything new they would also have lost all their work in SE Cornwall.
Next time it is just as likely that there will be multiple successful operators. That will be a test of keeping the TfC enhanced partnership running smoothly.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Spot on.
IIRC, Stagecoach only submitted bids for North and East Cornwall, whilst First only submitted bids for lots in their existing areas (so not NE or SE Cornwall). It was only Go Ahead that submitted a single all-encompassing bid for everything.
I guess that First will be thinking that they can sharpen their pencil. Again, and apologise as it was 6 years ago so the memory is jaded, but I think that First actually were cheaper on those lots that they submitted against but lost out on the quality assessment. Fast forward to now and their Cornwall College work was lost on price despite them being best on the quality assessment.
Given the quality of buses First run on College contracts, it's interesting that they were best in quality. Particularly given Go Cornwall generally run much newer vehicles...albeit stuck together with gaffer tape still! The only thing First do better is friendliness of drivers. From the moment Mark Morgan-Huws was forced out, the writing has been on the wall sadly.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Quality is not quality in that respect. Quality assessment in a public procurement sense is about answering a set of questions that relate to various criteria against which you are scored e.g. explain how you train and assess your drivers, or how you engage with local communities, may be part of the quality criteria.
I would say that whilst I was a big fan of the Carter/Morgan-Huws era, I think the failure to win the Cornwall tenders meant that they then had to resort to getting work elsewhere. Up till 2020, they really transformed the Kernow business.
In that period of 2021/2, there were a lot of failures in there... Sunseeker in Newquay, DayTripper, Lizard open toppers, Exeter city tour. Yes, the Dartmoor route had some success but it was built around schools work (so marginally costed) and that limited the appeal, and that did for DayTripper, as well as poor service delivery in the post-Covid driver shortage days. Only the Exmoor, Atlantic and Lands End Coasters had any modicum of success - the former especially.
There was also a fair bit of distraction. King Harry Coaches, waiting room at Land's End, etc - all stuff that really took away from the day to day operation. So I think it's a bit more nuanced than saying it all changed when the management did