First Trenitalia (Avanti!) WCML branding, naming and livery

[Pete_uk]

I thought the Pendos new livery was going to be what would be on the fleet going forward. Otherwise it's been a waste of paint

 

[43096]

I really don't get this obsession with bringing back old fashioned and dated branding. It just looks appalling and has no place on the mainline in 2019. GWR is a nice mix of old and new, but that's about as far as it should go.

Quite. It’s just the TOCs trying to hark back to some supposedly golden age in a desperate attempt to divert attention away from the extortionate prices, appalling customer service and frankly abysmal facilities on board (that includes the seats). GWR is prime exhibit - done because Worst Great Western had become such a toxic brand. Just desperate and pathetic.

 

[Prestige15]

One do something stupid and the others follow, I wont be suprise if cross country change its brand to Southern England Midland Manchester North Eastern and Scottish Railway

 

[sprinterguy]

I thought the Pendos new livery was going to be what would be on the fleet going forward. Otherwise it's been a waste of paint

The new paint first and foremost protects each vehicle from corrosion. As far as I'm aware it gives the new operator a blank canvas to apply a comprehensive vinyl wrap over the top if they desire it.

 

[mmh]

Yes, these simple geographic names are old fashioned nostalgic rubbish. Much better to be modern with names like "c2c" or "one."

I don't understand why people are annoyed by them. Only three current TOCs don't use geographic names (c2c, Virgin and Grand Central), and historically there have been very few others. One, Silverlink, who else?

 

[pt_mad]

The brand is still showcased on the website of the advertising agency that produced it...

http://www.whataloadoftosh.com/projects/Horizon-Trains

The refurb looks quite luxurious, though I don't recognise the actual seats.

On a side note, that route map from Horizon Trains looks interesting. Looks like the Liverpool would have had a regular call at Milton Keynes, which has a solid circle on the Liverpool route by the looks of it? Couldn't see a lot else different from today though other than the Wolverhampton now being merged into the second Scottish service?

This not happening then?

That LMS artists mockup does look very old fashioned. If it turns out to be the case that the DFT has chosen the name LMS then I should imagine there's still every chance First will use a modern take like they did with Dynamic Lines, TPE and Horizon trains mockup which a poster has linked to above.

GWR as others have pointed out has been done in a contemporary fashion which is pleasing. There timetable and maps etc all look quite modern. The livery on the 80x stock also looks quite stylish,more so than it did on the HST fleet imo particularly the metal nameplates which although brilliant to have do look old fashioned on new stock. Although I'd still rather have named trains as an enthusiast.

 

[RealTrains07]

One do something stupid and the others follow, I wont be suprise if cross country change its brand to Southern England Midland Manchester North Eastern and Scottish Railway

Central railways maybe?

 

[RealTrains07]

On a side note, that route map from Horizon Trains looks interesting. Looks like the Liverpool would have had a regular call at Milton Keynes, which has a solid circle on the Liverpool route by the looks of it? Couldn't see a lot else different from today though other than the Wolverhampton now being merged into the second Scottish service?


That LMS artists mockup does look very old fashioned. If it turns out to be the case that the DFT has chosen the name LMS then I should imagine there's still every chance First will use a modern take like they did with Dynamic Lines, TPE and Horizon trains mockup which a poster has linked to above.

GWR as others have pointed out has been done in a contemporary fashion which is pleasing. There timetable and maps etc all look quite modern. The livery on the 80x stock also looks quite stylish,more so than it did on the HST fleet imo particularly the metal nameplates which although brilliant to have do look old fashioned on new stock. Although I'd still rather have named trains as an enthusiast.

800s have no space for that anyway. GWR livery looked far better on the HSTs

If anything first should keep the red for the West Coast. Makes the job of repainting the stations and everything less annoying compared to blue look?

Plus at least the red would be a nod to the past 22 years anyway?

 

[Chiltern006]

The website currently says 'West Coast Rail'
www.westcoastrail.co.uk

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hi newbie here,
I think the new First/Trenitalia WCML services will be branded "LMS/R Trains" and liveried in the original retro burgundy colours albeit with a modern take on it.

The LMS is not particularly heritage as far as services out of Euston are concerned, particularly the "M" part of it.
It lasted 25 years, little more than Virgin (22 years).
Its predecessor the LNWR lasted 77 years, and covers virtually the entire present ICWC network (which includes some of the Caledonian), give or take a couple of joint stations.
Remember the LMS covered all the Midland Railway routes including Carlisle-Leeds-Birmingham-Bristol, large parts of Wales and even Southend!
Plus the L&Y, North Stafford, Furness, Caledonian. G&SW, Highland...
The EMR, c2c, and XC franchises, and others, are equally entitled to the LMS heritage.

Welcome to the forum by the way.

 

[edwin_m]

The EMR, c2c, and XC franchises, and others, are equally entitled to the LMS heritage.

Indeed the new EMR livery is similar to the LMS maroon colour (which did of course originate with the Midland) and the lettering has something in common with both the pre-war and the post-war LMS styles. So I can't see West Coast going with anything too similar. Incidentally the original Midland Mainline livery was supposed to have been inspired by the LMS streamliners, but using different colours.

 

[Martin222002]

The website currently says 'West Coast Rail'
www.westcoastrail.co.uk

Quiet interestingly the first thing mentioned on the FAQs page is the following:

"What will Virgin Trains be known as under the new franchise? How will our brand change?

We know how important the brand is to the current franchise. We’re currently developing the new franchise’s brand and hope to be able to announce everything soon, including the new name. From the start of the new franchise, we’ll go through a new branding process to make sure the new brand and vision is reflected across the network."

So sounds pretty certain that West Coast Rail won't be the name they will be trading as.

 

[anme]

Best would be to call it Trenitalia - it's cool, it's sophisticated, it's international, it's not Virgin. What could be better?

 

[ashkeba]

Yes, these simple geographic names are old fashioned nostalgic rubbish. Much better to be modern with names like "c2c" or "one."

I don't understand why people are annoyed by them. Only three current TOCs don't use geographic names (c2c, Virgin and Grand Central), and historically there have been very few others. One, Silverlink, who else?

Well, one was probably the stupidest name yet to grace a transport company! Is that the 8.21 service or the 8.20 "one" service? I think they renamed it to "one Railway" pretty quickly and then eventually national express.

 

[Bletchleyite]

GWR as others have pointed out has been done in a contemporary fashion which is pleasing. There timetable and maps etc all look quite modern. The livery on the 80x stock also looks quite stylish,more so than it did on the HST fleet imo particularly the metal nameplates which although brilliant to have do look old fashioned on new stock. Although I'd still rather have named trains as an enthusiast.

In my view the GWR marketing package is an absolute masterstroke - a modern classic (unlike say EMR which just looks dated). I suppose you could replicate it as something like lNWr but it might dilute the brand somewhat.

Anyone know which agency did it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, one was probably the stupidest name yet to grace a transport company! Is that the 8.21 service or the 8.20 "one" service? I think they renamed it to "one Railway" pretty quickly and then eventually national express.

To be fair, there's nothing that will cause as much confusion about where to sit as antimacassars marked with "First(f) Standard Class".

 

[northernbelle]

In my view the GWR marketing package is an absolute masterstroke - a modern classic (unlike say EMR which just looks dated). I suppose you could replicate it as something like lNWr but it might dilute the brand somewhat.

Anyone know which agency did it?

Given most passengers called it "Great Western" or "BR", the change from FGW to GWR seemed pretty sensible to me. I also prefer names that reference the operating territory as they actually mean something. Combining parent group names or other arbetary words means nothing to passengers in my view - what does 'Connex South Central' or 'Grand Central' actually mean to someone travelling to Fareham or Sunderland?

I believe the rebrand was the work of the Pentagram agency.

 

[pdeaves]

I believe the rebrand was the work of the Pentagram agency.

That is correct.

 

[MarkWiles]

If we're going heritage, LNWR is out because WMT already have trains carrying that brand, I also think LMS might have issues as it excludes any reference to the politically sensitive North West, plus there has been a rail service until recently called London Midland which might cause confusion, not least in the way LNWR/WMT are still coded LM in timetables. Doesn't leave much, Grand Junction, but that is a weak brand concept, West Coast was used by the LNWR and Caledonian in the past and by Intercity but again lacks any resonance. I think we might be looking at a completely new, non-heritage brand. Which does rather put "Horizon" back in the frame other than it was once the name of a holiday company. How about "Midland Northern and Scottish", MNS, with all the quality (and high price) allusion to M&S?!

As for livery, seeing all the Bendylinos are now painted in an off white how about adding a purple-black window cheatline swooping down at the front? It would be a modern take on the traditional London and North Western "Plum and Spilt Milk" livery whilst giving a sleek look. I think the monotone First and GWR liveries look dumpy and uninspiring, and overall LMS crimson would also look dull. Mind you Caledonian blue could work...

 

[Doomotron]

In Train Simulator, the Class 390 was originally released without the Virgin livery as the developers couldn't get the licence. Therefore, the pack included three fictional (well, non-prototypical) liveries. These were InterCity, GNER and a fictional LMS livery.

(photo from David's Train Sim)

I've always liked this livery. I know that it won't be the actual livery, but one can hope...

 

[pt_mad]

In Train Simulator, the Class 390 was originally released without the Virgin livery as the developers couldn't get the licence. Therefore, the pack included three fictional (well, non-prototypical) liveries. These were InterCity, GNER and a fictional LMS livery.
View attachment 67748
(photo from David's Train Sim)

I've always liked this livery. I know that it won't be the actual livery, but one can hope...

That actually looks quite nice, although fairly similar to the original MK3 VT livery minus the stripes.

 

[pt_mad]

I also think LMS might have issues as it excludes any reference to the politically sensitive North West, plus there has been a rail service until recently called London Midland which might cause confusion, not least in the way LNWR/WMT are still coded LM in timetables.

You make a good point. LMS is a geographical name yet excludes the North West or just the north in general.

Also wouldn't this name need to fit with HS2 services also?

 

[transmanche]

On a side note, that route map from Horizon Trains looks interesting. Looks like the Liverpool would have had a regular call at Milton Keynes, which has a solid circle on the Liverpool route by the looks of it?

I really don't think you can derive planned service patterns from an advertising agency mock-up.

 

[MarkWiles]

Here's a slightly off-piste thought: First Trenitalia Rail would initialise to FTR, co-incidentally the branding that First used for their wannabe tram bendybus services in York and Swansea that had all the impact of a feather on an elephant. First probably trademarked "ftr" for travel applications. The brand also suggests "future" and looks like trendy text speak so the marketing wonks will probably swoon with delight if it was used.

Mind you, it would rather allow the interweb comedians to have a bit of fun with the initials, with the letter "F" having a number of alternative options.

 

[tpjm]

Here's a slightly off-piste thought: First Trenitalia Rail would initialise to FTR, co-incidentally the branding that First used for their wannabe tram bendybus services in York and Swansea that had all the impact of a feather on an elephant. First probably trademarked "ftr" for travel applications. The brand also suggests "future" and looks like trendy text speak so the marketing wonks will probably swoon with delight if it was used.

I actually love this concept.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually love this concept.

I think it's as awful as those bendybuses were, to be honest. Putting a fancy body on a bendybus does not stop it being a bendybus.

If you want a bendybus you want a Citaro-G and just to operate it properly.

 

[tpjm]

My initial brain dump following the above discussion.

Below: my initial thoughts about a 'classic' brand, which I no longer think works, given the above.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you're falling into the EMR trap with the classic one. I think it needs to be a "modern classic" like GWR - so I wouldn't use a serif font.

The FTR branding looks quite good - it's not dissimilar to the original proposed Caledonian Sleeper concept - but I just can't help but associate it with badly tarted-up bendybuses on a poorly-thought-through operational model.

 

[fgwrich]

I can't see First returning to any hints of FTR - They've already been bitten badly from the bus side with their own version of the bus of the future, based upon the Wright Streetcar. I don't believe any of the "FTR" vehicles are still in service, with First group being particularly keen to scrap them rather than selling them on!

 

[tpjm]

The question is, how far did the FTR calamity spread? Over the Manchester way, I'd never heard of it until reading it in this thread.

I think you're falling into the EMR trap with the classic one. I think it needs to be a "modern classic" like GWR - so I wouldn't use a serif font.

I really like EMR's new branding, until you get to the 'EMR' logo, which in my opinion, is just wrong. The full 'East Midland Trains' is much sleeker and matches the colour / white sweeps much better.