First West Yorkshire & York discussion

[Surreyman]

With Bradford (and Sheffield's) CAZ zones scheduled for 1st Jan next is there a list or means of identifying compliant/ non compliant buses.
Not long now.
Thanks
K

If you have the patience (Keying in individual reg' no's) you could try: -

Enter the vehicle registration (number plate) | Drive in a clean air zone | GOV.UK

vehiclecheck.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk

I won't vouch for its accuracy, I think the assumption is that every vehicle with a '14 reg or newer is automatically compliant, which is not the case.
It also relies on operators actually advising them of older vehicles retrofitted to Euro 6.

 

[superkev]

If you have the patience (Keying in individual reg' no's) you could try: -

Enter the vehicle registration (number plate) | Drive in a clean air zone | GOV.UK

vehiclecheck.drive-clean-air-zone.service.gov.uk

I won't vouch for its accuracy, I think the assumption is that every vehicle with a '14 reg or newer is automatically compliant, which is not the case.
It also relies on operators actually advising them of older vehicles retrofitted to Euro 6.

Thankyou very interesting.
Based on the Oct fleetlist I entered a small sample of First Bradford Reg numbers.
It seems that non of the B7TL deckers, BTRLE's upto 06 plate or the remaining BMC schoolbuses are compliant.
I make that around 53 buses which will incurr a £50 charge on entering Bradfords CAZ from 31st Dec 2021.
Perhaps it will be deffered or theres a grace period.
K

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

With Bradford (and Sheffield's) CAZ zones scheduled for 1st Jan next is there a list or means of identifying compliant/ non compliant buses.
Not long now.
Thanks
K

I should imagine just any B7TL. I think B9TLs and B7RLEs can be made to meet emissions standards. (Though I'm no bus engineer).

 

[Surreyman]

Thankyou very interesting.
Based on the Oct fleetlist I entered a small sample of First Bradford Reg numbers.
It seems that non of the B7TL deckers, BTRLE's upto 06 plate or the remaining BMC schoolbuses are compliant.
I make that around 53 buses which will incurr a £50 charge on entering Bradfords CAZ from 31st Dec 2021.
Perhaps it will be deffered or theres a grace period.
K

I was last in Bradford @ 1994 and that was a fleeting visit, so not familiar with the area, just guessing but could it be that some First - Bradford routes don't go into the City centre?
When the London LEZ was extended to the whole of Greater London, First in Slough(with routes to Heathrow & Uxbridge) cut it very fine, they transferred in some older B7RLEs which had been upgraded and I think may have had to pay a few charges for a month or so while vehicles were still being modified.
Maybe they just do a swop around with compliant vehicles from other depots and they get Bradfords old vehicles, won't be very popular!
Wouldn't think it makes financial sense to upgrade anything much older than 10 years?

 

[Volvodart]

They have already upgraded some 07 plates.

 

[Surreyman]

A quick google found this dated 21/05/2021, suggests that funding has been made available, just ned to find some not too old vehicles to spend it on!

"Launch of Clean Air Bus Fund gives Bradford buses £1.6 million boost
Article dated Friday May 21, 2021 at 12:11 PM

Bus companies providing services in the Bradford district are being invited to apply for grants to make their vehicles cleaner and produce less pollution.
Bradford Council is Launching the Clean Air Bus Fund today (20 May, 2021) providing £1.632m worth of grants to help businesses meet Clean Air Zone standards ahead of its launch in the district in January 2022.
There are thought to be around 100 buses that currently do not comply with the Clean Air Zone standards - which mean they emit higher levels of Nitrogen than those with a Euro 6 diesel engine or ones that run on alternative fuels.
Grants of up to £16,000 will help operators to replace or retrofit their buses with equipment to reduce the pollution they emit. Funding is available for both scheduled and tendered services".

 

[Leedsbusman]

Thankyou very interesting.
Based on the Oct fleetlist I entered a small sample of First Bradford Reg numbers.
It seems that non of the B7TL deckers, BTRLE's upto 06 plate or the remaining BMC schoolbuses are compliant.
I make that around 53 buses which will incurr a £50 charge on entering Bradfords CAZ from 31st Dec 2021.
Perhaps it will be deffered or theres a grace period.
K

There has been no start date set for the CAZ yet. It will probably be the first half of 2022, but not 1st Jan. I would expect First will have the necessary orders for new buses or retrofitting kit in hand ahead of the deadline. Non compliant buses will have a grace period providing a replacement bus or a retrofit kit has been ordered. All standard with these schemes.

 

[Deerfold]

Thankyou very interesting.
Based on the Oct fleetlist I entered a small sample of First Bradford Reg numbers.
It seems that non of the B7TL deckers, BTRLE's upto 06 plate or the remaining BMC schoolbuses are compliant.
I make that around 53 buses which will incurr a £50 charge on entering Bradfords CAZ from 31st Dec 2021.
Perhaps it will be deffered or theres a grace period.
K

School services only need to meet Euro 4.

 

[superkev]

There has been no start date set for the CAZ yet. It will probably be the first half of 2022, but not 1st Jan. I would expect First will have the necessary orders for new buses or retrofitting kit in hand ahead of the deadline. Non compliant buses will have a grace period providing a replacement bus or a retrofit kit has been ordered. All standard with these schemes.

In typical council fashion confusion seems to reign over the CAZ where all reference to the original 5th Jan 2022 start date have been removed from the webpage.
As late as Oct various other publication were still giving 5th Jan 22 as the start date.
Looks lije the usual council shambles.
K

 

[Volvodart]

School services only need to meet Euro 4.

I think this is only temporary anyway, until possibly 2024, but again details written down are lacking.

 

[Deerfold]

I think this is only temporary anyway, until possibly 2024, but again details written down are lacking.

Probably, but they're certainly going to be alright on Jan 1.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Probably, but they're certainly going to be alright on Jan 1.

Remember the concerns that First wouldn't be ready for PSVAR's various stages....but they were. Imagine that they will be fine, even if there's a bit of shuffling on a temporary basis.

 

[samuel791]

It’s actually a full revamp of fares across West Yorkshire with various different new options

Ticket easy

Ticket easy, with fairer fares for all! Our tickets are cheaper, simpler, fairer and more flexible to help you get where you want to be. See which ticket is best for you: %%TICKET_PRICING_TREE%%

www.firstbus.co.uk

First South Yorkshire did the same thing, around 10 years back. Didn't work out too well for them, causing them to reduce their fares from £17 for a First Sheffield Week to £11 back in 2012.

Since then, South Yorkshire has remained a very competitive market - especially in Sheffield. Multi-operator ticketing being some of the cheapest in the UK (CityBus for all bus operators within Sheffield is £4.70 for a daysaver or £16.30 for a week saver [£17.50 when bought onboard]).

Sadly, it has caused a race to the bottom and this doesn't look like it's going to end anytime soon. Cheap fares are great if sustainable...

 

[Andyh82]

With Bradford (and Sheffield's) CAZ zones scheduled for 1st Jan next is there a list or means of identifying compliant/ non compliant buses.
Not long now.
Thanks
K

A photo of a brand new Streetdeck in a blue livery, like a blue version of the LeedsCity livery has been circulating on other forums and social media. Thought to be for Bradford, so it looks like some new buses are incoming

 

[noddingdonkey]

The new fares seem to be a bit of a communications farce in Huddersfield, with people upset at the apparent price hike on weekly tickets as it's now a WY wide fare, not realising about the flexi option on the app. They haven't published any details of the new single and return fares so you have no chance of working out in advance whether tap on/tap off, day ticket or the £2 flat fare on the app is going to be cheaper.

If they can do £2 singles (£1 after 7pm promo) on the app, I can't see why those fares wouldn't be available as TOTO caps for single journeys.

 

[Whisky Papa]

The new fares seem to be a bit of a communications farce in Huddersfield, with people upset at the apparent price hike on weekly tickets as it's now a WY wide fare, not realising about the flexi option on the app. They haven't published any details of the new single and return fares so you have no chance of working out in advance whether tap on/tap off, day ticket or the £2 flat fare on the app is going to be cheaper.

If they can do £2 singles (£1 after 7pm promo) on the app, I can't see why those fares wouldn't be available as TOTO caps for single journeys.

I quite agree with your top paragraph, although short of publishing a full faretable I'm not sure exactly how they would do it. Vague descriptions of journey lengths in miles are not always helpful, as they take no account of the actual location of farestages, particularly on shorter journeys. Conversely, saying something like "3 stages = £1.50" is equally useless unless you actually know where the farestages are.

As for the evening fares, the one time I used them on the app a few weeks back, I was sure I had seen the driver offer a £1 cash fare to a boarding passenger. As I would rather pay contactless on the bus than use the app, I asked the driver to confirm that the evening promotion was available on bus, but he seemed unable to grasp the point I was trying to clarify. Has anybody else any definitive answer on this? And yes, clearly they should be available TOTO as well.

 

[ant_bingley]

The last set of fares data showing on https://bustimes.org/fares/ is from 4 November.

(Scroll down to look for FWYO Ticketer Fares - then choose your service on the next page. You end up with a fares grid).

Hopefully these will get updated soon so we don't have to guess which fare option is the best.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Thanks Ant, that's useful!

 

[Whisky Papa]

Thanks Ant, that's useful!

Ditto from me. It's interesting to see how much the fares in the Rochdale and Burnley sections of the 590/1/2 have been simplified since my day.

As for the evening fares, the one time I used them on the app a few weeks back, I was sure I had seen the driver offer a £1 cash fare to a boarding passenger. As I would rather pay contactless on the bus than use the app, I asked the driver to confirm that the evening promotion was available on bus, but he seemed unable to grasp the point I was trying to clarify. Has anybody else any definitive answer on this? And yes, clearly they should be available TOTO as well.

I had an excuse to pop down to Hebden Bridge on the bus last night and asked the driver if the £1 evening fares were available on TOTO. He seemed fairly sure they weren't, as he said his (somewhat brief) summary sheet listed only four adult single fares that TOTO would apply according to distance travelled, although he did say he would raise the matter and seek clarification. From memory, the fares he quoted sounded considerably lower than those shown on the faretable linked to in post #587.

Meanwhile I noticed him issue a number of £1 evening fares to cash/contactless passengers, so this looks as though it is a valid option rather than having to use the app. I might start doing this, particularly to avoid problems like the one that occurred on my return journey when it seemed my phone wouldn't fit on the reader satisfactorily . The driver accepted it manually, but it still seems a bit of a faff.

Apologies, the second part of post #589 above was supposed to be a new post, not an edit. The journeys in question occurred on the evening of 14th Dec.

 

[Volvodart]

A photo of a brand new Streetdeck in a blue livery, like a blue version of the LeedsCity livery has been circulating on other forums and social media. Thought to be for Bradford, so it looks like some new buses are incoming

The video below says that 39 new buses are coming and that they will be using the sunset period for 4 to 5 months until they are fully compliant.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

The video below says that 39 new buses are coming and that they will be using the sunset period for 4 to 5 months until they are fully compliant.

Crunching the numbers on this, that 39 new vehicles pretty much tallys neatly with the remaining B7TLs and older B7RLEs at Bradford (the vehicles that wouldn't qualify for Euro 6 upgrades anyway). Suspect the Wright bodied B7TLs (there are only three or four ALX400s left at Bradford by my reckoning, which will obviously go and would be unlikely to be cascaded, such is the haste to move them out of the group at the moment) to be replaced will move onto Halifax and Huddersfield to oust their B7TL/ALX400s.

What will be interesting will be if these are like-for-like 'deckers and single-deckers in the 39 (so a 28/11 or 29/10 split), and if those single-deckers are more StreetLites or GB Hawks (the bigger single-decks that Ulsterbus/Translink have been taking) - fairly obviously the 'deckers are StreetDecks (going on the photo seen recently).

That then leaves the larger fleet of B7TL/ALX400s at Eastern Counties (particularly Ipswich) to be replaced at some point, with only penny numbers of the type left elsewhere in the group.

 

[cnjb8]

Crunching the numbers on this, that 39 new vehicles pretty much tallys neatly with the remaining B7TLs and older B7RLEs at Bradford (the vehicles that wouldn't qualify for Euro 6 upgrades anyway). Suspect the Wright bodied B7TLs (there are only three or four ALX400s left at Bradford by my reckoning, which will obviously go and would be unlikely to be cascaded, such is the haste to move them out of the group at the moment) to be replaced will move onto Halifax and Huddersfield to oust their B7TL/ALX400s.

What will be interesting will be if these are like-for-like 'deckers and single-deckers in the 39 (so a 28/11 or 29/10 split), and if those single-deckers are more StreetLites or GB Hawks (the bigger single-decks that Ulsterbus/Translink have been taking) - fairly obviously the 'deckers are StreetDecks (going on the photo seen recently).

That then leaves the larger fleet of B7TL/ALX400s at Eastern Counties (particularly Ipswich) to be replaced at some point, with only penny numbers of the type left elsewhere in the group.

Ipswich depots roof is too low to take full-height deckers, so would need a different solution

 

[Russ S]

Ipswich depots roof is too low to take full-height deckers, so would need a different solution

For now. The plan’s to rearrange the depot when the (broken) bus wash is replaced to allow full-height deckers, which should be before the low-heights have to start being removed from service.

 

[Simon75]

For now. The plan’s to rearrange the depot when the (broken) bus wash is replaced to allow full-height deckers, which should be before the low-heights have to start being removed from service.

Will involve much change structurally ?
(I don't know the Ipswich depot )?

 

[Andyh82]

Transdev's Alex Hornby has been on his jollies to Wrightbus this week

In the background can be seen some of the new Streetdecks that are going to be making their way to Bradford shortly

https://twitter.com/alextransdev/status/1481642437911015437?s=20

 

[superkev]

Transdev's Alex Hornby has been on his jollies to Wrightbus this week

In the background can be seen some of the new Streetdecks that are going to be making their way to Bradford shortly

https://twitter.com/alextransdev/status/1481642437911015437?s=20

Interesting thanks. Hopefully delivery soon.
Personally I think the livery would benefit from a bit of Bradfords traditional buttermilk cream. Bit like Sheffiels version.
Didn't I read somewhere First Bradford had 39 deckers and 10 single on order to comply with the CAZ zone.
K

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting thanks. Hopefully delivery soon.
Personally I think the livery would benefit from a bit of Bradfords traditional buttermilk cream. Bit like Sheffiels version.
Didn't I read somewhere First Bradford had 39 deckers and 10 single on order to comply with the CAZ zone.
K

I thought it was 39 vehicles in total?

Perhaps it's a bit difficult to really appreciate the new livery until the vinyls are applied.

 

[Seehof]

I have 2 questions regarding First York, please:

1) The EV Versas 49901-12 are never seen in York city centre. I appreciate that there is less of a need for them without the Poppleton Bar Park & Ride service, but why are they never used? Is there a technical reason for this?
2) Are there any plans for any new or cascaded in buses?
Thank you

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I have 2 questions regarding First York, please:

1) The EV Versas 49901-12 are never seen in York city centre. I appreciate that there is less of a need for them without the Poppleton Bar Park & Ride service, but why are they never used? Is there a technical reason for this?
2) Are there any plans for any new or cascaded in buses?
Thank you

More info here on the Optare EV Versas - looks like some and the DAF HEV deckers are in store in Halifax. Battery issues, not surprisingly.

A gut feeling is that they will be stored there until such time as they can be disposed of without too much of a hit on the book value.

 

[Seehof]

Thanks - wow is the battery reliability so bad? I hope York’s superb fleet of double deck EVs last longer and to the end of their natural life.