Flexible Rail Season Tickets - 2/3 days per week to be introduced by June 2021

[maniacmartin]

Spot the inconsistency in this advert...
View attachment 98725

Is it the age of the traveller in the picture and the flexi seasons only available in adult versions?

 

[Fenchurch SP]

According to Southern the ticket is valid from 0430 instead of midnight like most other seasons.

 

[mattdickinson]

The National Rail smart card app is now available on Android.

NationalRail Smartcard Manager - Apps on Google Play

The NationalRail Smartcard app allows you to view and load your Season Tickets

play.google.com

 

[Watershed]

I've had another look at a few different flows based on the data that's become available in BR Fares today.

It looks like the pricing for Flexi Seasons involves a default discount of 12.5% compared to the equivalent Anytime ticket.

However, where a Flexi Season would cost more than 80% of the equivalent monthly season, it's capped at 80%.

And where a 12.5% discount would mean a Flexi Season would cost less than the 'daily cost' (1/5th) of a weekly season, the Flexi Season is priced half-way between the daily cost of the weekly and Anytime ticket.

It all seems fairly logical in a world where the Treasury won't possibly accept any season ticket pricing being put at risk.

All 2 day a week peak time commuters should save something, and most will save at least 20% of the cost of a monthly season.

Obviously, it's nothing close to the 60% saving most people might expect with the moniker "Flexi Season", and it's not much use to most 3 or 4 day a week commuters, but it's better than nothing.

It does mean a massive variability in the discount offered vs daily tickets - for Stevenage to London it only gives a 7.4% discount whereas for Stoke to London it gives a 60.4% discount.

But that is really just down to how good or bad value the season ticket has historically been (what multiple of a daily ticket it costs).

 

[DDB]

The problem is if you are a 2 day a week commuter you have a high likelyhood of not getting through your 8 days in a 4 week period.

 

[py_megapixel]

The problem is if you are a 2 day a week commuter you have a high likelyhood of not getting through your 8 days in a 4 week period.

No, 2 days a week is exactly 8 days in 4 weeks. I'd say the issue is more the other way round - if you're ordinarily a 2-day/week commuter but one week there's a meeting which you have to go in on a different day for, then your ticket won't cover it.

 

[Haywain]

No, 2 days a week is exactly 8 days in 4 weeks. I'd say the issue is more the other way round - if you're ordinarily a 2-day/week commuter but one week there's a meeting which you have to go in on a different day for, then your ticket won't cover it.

Flexi seasons are not for a specific two days each week. If you have to travel on a different two days each week that's no problem at all. If you have to travel on a third day, just use a third ticket.

 

[akm]

I think DDB might be saying that a 2-day-a-week commuter who for whatever reason ends up not going in twice on one particular week will end up losing out, since their '28 days' will expire before they have had a chance to use the '8 days' validity. This echoes other people upthread who have said that '8 in 56' or even '8 in 42' would make for a much more attractive proposition.

 

[DDB]

I think DDB might be saying that a 2-day-a-week commuter who for whatever reason ends up not going in twice on one particular week will end up losing out, since their '28 days' will expire before they have had a chance to use the '8 days' validity. This echoes other people upthread who have said that '8 in 56' or even '8 in 42' would make for a much more attractive proposition.

Exactly. If you have annual leave or get sent on a course in a different part of the country or miss just one day for any reason you've lost out becsuse there is a £10 admin fee as well as the hassle of getting a refund and you've had to pay in advance. If it is not good for 2 day a week commuters and it sounds from people that have donenthe sums that it isn't that good for 3 day a week commuters what is the point? At it is easily fixed by slightly extending the validatity period at what should be no extra cost to the Treasury unless they were factoring how much they would make from tickets people didn't get to use.

 

[mmh]

I'm beginning to be thankful that TFW aren't offering flexi seasons after all. At least it means their e-carnet tickets ("Multiflex") are staying - 12 single tickets to be used in 90 days. Why does the flexi season need to be so more restricted?

 

[JonathanH]

On the other hand, once you are only travelling 7 times in 28 days, why does the railway need to offer any discount at all? People should be sufficiently clued up to work out how many times they are going into a workplace and how to plan around holidays.

If someone gets 'sent on a course' or has to go to a meeting, it won't automatically come out of their 'workplace time'.

 

[Watershed]

On the other hand, once you are only travelling 7 times in 28 days, why does the railway need to offer any discount at all?

Anyone who uses the railway on multiple occasions in a month is a regular traveller, when you consider the fact that the average person travels by train once or twice a year at most.

Regular travellers will simply go by car if the railway is too inflexible.

People should be sufficiently clued up to work out how many times they are going into a workplace and how to plan around holidays.

Plans change. People take last minute holiday or are off sick. It's ridiculous to suggest people should be omniscient of what the next 4 weeks hold when purchasing a Flexi Season.

 

[JonathanH]

Plans change. People take last minute holiday or are off sick. It's ridiculous to suggest people should be omniscient of what the next 4 weeks hold when purchasing a Flexi Season.

Yes, but you are making a presumption that the day off comes from the 'workplace days' rather than the 'home days'. I guess we still don't know how this will pan out once there is a return to the workplace but I would imagine that some people might shift the 'workplace day'. These considerations aren't really any different from those of someone holding 'normal' season tickets.

If a workplace is truly flexible, I'd suggest someone effectively does week in / week out over a weekend to be able to use weekly season tickets - eg Wed / Fri / Mon / Tue then repeat two weeks later.

 

[Watershed]

Yes, but you are making a presumption that the day off comes from the 'workplace days' rather than the 'home days'. I guess we still don't know how this will pan out once there is a return to the workplace but I would imagine that some people might shift the 'workplace day'. These considerations aren't really any different from those of someone holding 'normal' season tickets.

If a workplace is truly flexible, I'd suggest someone effectively does week in / week out over a weekend to be able to use weekly season tickets - eg Wed / Fri / Mon / Tue then repeat two weeks later.

The point is that the only passengers for whom Flexi Seasons are "guaranteed" to offer a saving is 2 day a week commuters.

But even for them, the saving will in most cases be wiped out if they happen to 'waste' one of the days. Which is very easy to do with a mere 28 days' validity.

It's a product that offers a rather low discount in the best case scenario, and in no way justifies its epithet.

 

[Haywain]

O

The point is that the only passengers for whom Flexi Seasons are "guaranteed" to offer a saving is 2 day a week commuters.

Across the board maybe, but there will be many cases where this will work out cheaper for people travelling 3 days a week.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

On the other hand, once you are only travelling 7 times in 28 days, why does the railway need to offer any discount at all?

Because otherwise there's going to be a lot of half-empty trains shuttling back and forth at peak times.

 

[JonathanH]

Because otherwise there's going to be a lot of half-empty trains shuttling back and forth at peak times.

That depends on whether workplaces are going to allow full homeworking which, despite changes to legislation, doesn't appear obvious in the long term.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

That depends on whether workplaces are going to allow full homeworking which, despite changes to legislation, doesn't appear obvious in the long term.

Indeed - no one can predict the future.

But even pre-pandemic, SWR were reporting that they were missing their targets due to increased home-working. Job adverts now regularly promise permanent home-working options. Large employers are closing entire office buildings. I would be honestly amazed if peak-hour commuting returned to the heights of the early 2000s any time soon.

The railway can try and adapt to the changing world, or it can do its usual trick of putting its fingers in its ears and going "la la la, I can't hear you".

 

[Haywain]

The railway can try and adapt to the changing world, or it can do its usual trick of putting its fingers in its ears and going "la la la, I can't hear you".

The railway can't try much at all - it's all controlled by the DfT now, with the Treasury holding the final say over anything financial.

 

[AM9]

Because otherwise there's going to be a lot of half-empty trains shuttling back and forth at peak times.

In which case a permanent reduction in peak traffic would allow investment on the massive additional capacity (think long trains that spend 80% of the day parked in sidings, additional tracks and platforms, many extra staff), to be diverted towards reducing fares for those who don't insist in travelling at the same time as everybody else. After all these years there are still so many commuters who think that they are the salvation of the railway system, instead of the section of the travelling public whose demands are very expensive to provide.

 

[35B]

In which case a permanent reduction in peak traffic would allow investment on the massive additional capacity (think long trains that spend 80% of the day parked in sidings, additional tracks and platforms, many extra staff), to be diverted towards reducing fares for those who don't insist in travelling at the same time as everybody else. After all these years there are still so many commuters who think that they are the salvation of the railway system, instead of the section of the travelling public whose demands are very expensive to provide.

I think you might find those cost reductions are sufficiently long term that they might allow the railways not to have to increase fares with inflation.

 

[JonathanH]

I think you might find those cost reductions are sufficiently long term that they might allow the railways not to have to increase fares with inflation.

I'd imagine that the Treasury will have in mind to increase fares well above inflation, not below.

 

[Hapana]

Does anybody know whether it is allowed to split a Flexi-season at a station that your train does not stop at? These are supposed to be SEASON tickets, and therefore I understand that this would normally be allowed

i.e. instead of an A to C flexi season you buy a pair of A to B and B to C?

Edited - I can see the question has already been answered in the affirmative up-thread

 

[35B]

I'd imagine that the Treasury will have in mind to increase fares well above inflation, not below.

I'm sure they do - though the focus will be on reducing the real value of subsidy, not the fares per se.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm sure they do - though the focus will be on reducing the real value of subsidy, not the fares per se.

I suspect that you are being optimistic. More likely the absolute value of subsidy.

 

[35B]

I suspect that you are being optimistic. More likely the absolute value of subsidy.

A question of degree - but still not directly targeted at fares.

 

[infobleep]

On the other hand, once you are only travelling 7 times in 28 days, why does the railway need to offer any discount at all? People should be sufficiently clued up to work out how many times they are going into a workplace and how to plan around holidays.

If someone gets 'sent on a course' or has to go to a meeting, it won't automatically come out of their 'workplace time'.

A train service that runs just once a week in one direction is considered regular.

Thus someone travelling once a week must also be regular.

It use to slightly annoy me that one could get a monthly season ticket if they travelled just one month a year but if I made 48 return journeys over 2 days in each time, for 48 weeks, I couldn't get a discount. Not even a multi-buy. I would be travelling same amount as someone who travelled just for 1 month.

The railway can't try much at all - it's all controlled by the DfT now, with the Treasury holding the final say over anything financial.

Maybe the treasury will put their fingers in their ears instead.

 

[mmh]

Yes, but you are making a presumption that the day off comes from the 'workplace days' rather than the 'home days'. I guess we still don't know how this will pan out once there is a return to the workplace but I would imagine that some people might shift the 'workplace day'. These considerations aren't really any different from those of someone holding 'normal' season tickets.

If a workplace is truly flexible, I'd suggest someone effectively does week in / week out over a weekend to be able to use weekly season tickets - eg Wed / Fri / Mon / Tue then repeat two weeks later.

The whole point of the flexi season, or the way it was announced at least, by all of the Government, the RDG and TOCs, was that the assumption of 5 days a week travel was no longer appropriate for everyone, and to accommodate that a new ticket was needed.

Miraculously, the railway then delivered a ticket that made more assumptions about people's travel than any previous ticket.

 

[kieron]

I've had a bit of a look at some of the places where a Flexi Season (FL1) tickets is probably too expensive to be a good choice.

Well over 99% of the FL1 fares cost less than 8 day returns, and even for GWR (who seem to have the largest number of expensive FL1s) it's 98.8%. This still leaves many exceptions.

I've noticed a few categories:

1. Month returns are used for the calculation where a day return exists.
Lancaster-Penrith has a £188.30 FL1, a £26.90 SVR (1/7 as much) and a £22.80 SDR (1/8.3).

2. Anytime returns are used where travellers would use an off peak return.
Nottingham-Skegness has a £312 FL1, a £44.60 SHR (1/7 as much) and a £27.10 CDR (1/11). The CDR has an 8A restriction, which only affected break of journey.
Dunbar-Edinburgh has a £115.20 FL1, a £16.40 SDR (1/7 as much) and a £12.30 CDR (1/9 as much) with C6 restriction. This forbids travel between 4:30 and 4:59 inclusive, No trains are scheduled to stop in Dunbar at that time of the morning, so it affects no-one.

3. FL1 tickets are more expensive in one direction than the other.
Poppleton-Scarborough has no SDR, but Scarborough-Poppleton does. The FL1s cost £270 and £227.50 respectively (7 times as much as the SHR and SDR respectively).

Assuming that someone in Poppleton is able to activate either ticket there, buying one from Scarborough would save over 15%.

4. FL1 tickets cost more per day of validity than a season ticket.
A FL1 is valid for 4 weeks, so a year's travel would need 13 FL1s. Someone who uses FL1s over that time scale will probably switch to return tickets for some of the year in order to accommodate holidays, but it's a place to start.

A Milton Keynes-Liverpool "WMR & LNR only" FL1 would cost £739.90, so that a year's supply costs £9618.70. An annual season would only cost £8128, giving an 18% saving and allowing 261 days' extra travel.

5. There are plenty I can't explain, though.
London-Pitsea has a £160 FL1, and a £16 SDR (1/10 as much). The Pitsea-London FL1 only costs £122.40 for the FL1 and £16.20 for the SDR (1/7.6 as much, which is fairly typical for C2C), so it's not a directional ticket issue.

 

[Watershed]

Lancaster-Penrith has a £188.30 FL1, a £26.90 SVR (1/7 as much) and a £22.80 SDR (1/8.3).

I think Avanti may have overlooked the fact that they are the fare setter for some interavailable SDRs. They have obviously considered the restriction code on their SVRs when determining whether they are effectively Anytime tickets.

Nottingham-Skegness has a £312 FL1, a £44.60 SHR (1/7 as much) and a £27.10 CDR (1/11). The CDR has an 8A restriction, which only affected break of journey.
Dunbar-Edinburgh has a £115.20 FL1, a £16.40 SDR (1/7 as much) and a £12.30 CDR (1/9 as much) with C6 restriction. This forbids travel between 4:30 and 4:59 inclusive, No trains are scheduled to stop in Dunbar at that time of the morning, so it affects no-one.

3. FL1 tickets are more expensive in one direction than the other.
Poppleton-Scarborough has no SDR, but Scarborough-Poppleton does. The FL1s cost £270 and £227.50 respectively (7 times as much as the SHR and SDR respectively).

Assuming that someone in Poppleton is able to activate either ticket there, buying one from Scarborough would save over 15%.

Clear signs of formulaic pricing by those TOCs! Nottingham-Skegness being 8A is a new one on me, I'm sure it used to be CG not that long ago.

4. FL1 tickets cost more per day of validity than a season ticket.
A FL1 is valid for 4 weeks, so a year's travel would need 13 FL1s. Someone who uses FL1s over that time scale will probably switch to return tickets for some of the year in order to accommodate holidays, but it's a place to start.

A Milton Keynes-Liverpool "WMR & LNR only" FL1 would cost £739.90, so that a year's supply costs £9618.70. An annual season would only cost £8128, giving an 18% saving and allowing 261 days' extra travel.

The 28 day validity is one of the fundamental limitations of the FL1 ticket type, and with a 12.5% discount over the equivalent Anytime ticket that flow is no different to most others.

However WMT do have some 'skeletons' in their closet - for example a "WMR/LNR only" Rugby to Stafford FL1 costs 67% more than an "Any Permitted" FL1. Now, I realise that most people would make that journey by the hourly direct WMT service, so the TOC restriction is not particularly onerous. But why would anyone pay two thirds more for less validity?! The FL1 isn't the only WMT fare on that flow that's more expensive than the Any Permitted.

5. There are plenty I can't explain, though.
London-Pitsea has a £160 FL1, and a £16 SDR (1/10 as much). The Pitsea-London FL1 only costs £122.40 for the FL1 and £16.20 for the SDR (1/7.6 as much, which is fairly typical for C2C), so it's not a directional ticket issue.

Some very strange things happening on Pitsea to London either way - even a normal 7DS costs more than 5 SDRs. c2c might want to have a rethink of that one.