Flying Scotsman aided by diesel traction

[richieb1971]

I've always suspected, but never had it proven or advertised as so. But today on railwayherald.com I noticed tomorrows Midland Mainline working of 60103 had an information button next to it.

http://railwayherald.com/railtours

When hovering over it, it states



Has this practice been going on for long? I noticed looking at youtube videos that even on uphill stretches there is barely any smoke coming from 60103. This puts this into the realm of false advertising as the passengers were paying for steam traction.

I've come to some conclusions, but would like them clarified

1) Diesel traction aids steam engines to conserve water in the boiler
2) Electric Train heating is needed, so a diesel is put on the back
3) TNT traction means reversals are not required on some paths
4) Steam sometimes gets behind on its timings or struggles uphill, so diesel takes over
5) Diesel takes the strain where ever possible, giving the illusion the steam loco is doing the work


I've seen quite a few workings where the steam loco is on its own in the consist. So there must be some tick boxes that decide the what is in the consist.

Mainline pathing?
Tornado being a modern loco?
Reliability factor?
Weekend or week day working?

So tomorrow, 60103 will likely be on full power at the stations taking off, but somewhere a mile down the road the engine driver is going to put the loco in a neutral gear. Is that a fair statement?

I've done what I always do, miss the point of the message. Due to the extreme heat and bush fires going on up north, this working will presumably work at 50% power so fireballs don't emit from the chimney starting a host of different fires along its path.

 

[daikilo]

Your last paragraph is correct although it may not be 50% and may be in certain areas only.

The diesel loco is often used to provide ETH including power for aircon (if there is no generator van in the consist) and is also available to provide assistance if required, this has been a practice for several decades.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I've come to some conclusions, but would like them clarified

EDIT: ignore me - misread the OP

 

[richieb1971]

(if there is no generator van in the consist)

Do these look like coaches? I'm pretty sure I have not seen one otherwise.

 

[markindurham]

NR restriction - fire risk is high at present

 

[Tw99]

How does this work in terms of communication from the steam engine driving cab to the person who's operating the diesel loco on the rear ? E.g., when to apply power/brake/etc.

 

[D365]

How does this work in terms of communication from the steam engine driving cab to the person who's operating the diesel loco on the rear ? E.g., when to apply power/brake/etc.

[Picture of a walkie-talkie pair]

 

[CosherB]

Do these look like coaches? I'm pretty sure I have not seen one otherwise.

Hence why you haven’t clocked them! Mk1, 2 and 3 gennie carriages are out there.

 

[AndrewE]

NR restriction - fire risk is high at present

Extreme at the moment - no real rain in the NW south of the Lake District for months now.

How does this work in terms of communication from the steam engine driving cab to the person who's operating the diesel loco on the rear ? E.g., when to apply power/brake/etc.

Applying power: guard blowing a whistle/waving a green flag, or speed dropping on an adverse gradient? Braking: Rear driver notices brake pipe pressure dropping and cuts power? I believe some locos have an interlock between the brake and the "throttle," - but I can't see how this helps if you are trying to do a hill start.

 

[richieb1971]

If these practices are done regular even on cold wet days, the whole steam programme on the mainline is a false advertising campaign. I don't remember seeing historic film footage in the 40's of a steam loco doing 75mph without any smoke emitting the chimney. Even on the GCR I've seen what a proper working looks like and a lot of smoke emits the chimney.

 

[AndrewE]

If these practices are done regular even on cold wet days, the whole steam programme on the mainline is a false advertising campaign. I don't remember seeing historic film footage in the 40's of a steam loco doing 75mph without any smoke emitting the chimney. Even on the GCR I've seen what a proper working looks like and a lot of smoke emits the chimney.

Smoke or steam? It does depend on a lot of things... like the temperature and humidity of the ambient air, also how open the regulator is, also whether firing is being done and after that whether the fireman has got the firehole door open the right amount.

 

[Adam0984]

At least it’s still on. Could quite easily substitute for a diesel completely. Maybe more to do with the fact they want it back up north. At the end of the day to most of the people travelling on it they are been pulled by the Flying Scotsman and that all that matters and most wont even know they’re been pushed or pulled by the diesel

 

[DarloRich]

I've done what I always do, miss the point of the message. Due to the extreme heat and bush fires going on up north, this working will presumably work at 50% power so fireballs don't emit from the chimney starting a host of different fires along its path.

you have got it - there will be an extreme fire risk at present due to the mega warm weather and dry ground. You may have missed that half of Saddleworth Moor has recently gone up in flames.

Do these look like coaches? I'm pretty sure I have not seen one otherwise.

here you go:
Waterloo by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Victoria by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Cannon Street by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Bletchely by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

Milton Keynes Central by DarloRich2009, on Flickr


They are generally full brake vehicles converted after preservation to have a gen set fitted to help with on board services. NR have them in test trains as does the Royal Train. They are generally given away by the louvre cut into the side.

I noticed looking at youtube videos that even on uphill stretches there is barely any smoke coming from 60103

I suspect that is becuase it is not long out of overhual and looked after very well and only allowed to operate within agreed tolerances meaning no no excessive strain

 

[broadgage]

The degree of smoke emitted by a steamer is no guide to the amount of work being done.
It depends on many factors, but under good conditions a steamer can develop full or nearly full power with almost no smoke. Steam/water vapour is unavoidable but is invisible in some weather conditions.

Under most conditions, a steam locomotive on a railtour will provide all or most of the tractive effort, with the diesel only providing electric train supply, and being available in case of need.
In the present circumstances though it is stated that much of the power will come from the diesel, this is IMHO justifiable in the present drought conditions to reduce the fire risk.
A steam locomotive if pushed hard is very liable to throw out hot sparks or cinders, most undesirable.

 

[AndrewE]

I noticed looking at youtube videos that even on uphill stretches there is barely any smoke coming from 60103

I suspect that is because it is not long out of overhaul and looked after very well and only allowed to operate within agreed tolerances meaning no excessive strain

I would guess that as they are climbing and working hard the fireman is busy on the shovel, so the firebox door is open, meaning lots of top (secondary) air, so no unburnt carbon at the chimney (bad because of potential excess cooling of the firetubes.) If the weather is warm the steam won't condense anyway, especially with the excess airflow coming in from the firebox door. After a short while the door will be almost closed to give a light grey smoke and the "steam" might become visible (in cool weather) - or not if it it is at all warm.

 

[DarloRich]

I would guess that as they are climbing and working hard the fireman is busy on the shovel, so the firebox door is open, meaning lots of top (secondary) air, so no unburnt carbon at the chimney (bad because of potential excess cooling of the firetubes.) If the weather is warm the steam won't condense anyway, especially with the excess airflow coming in from the firebox door. After a short while the door will be almost closed to give a light grey smoke and the "steam" might become visible (in cool weather) - or not if it it is at all warm.

i have no idea how a steam engine works beyond fire, boiling water, magic pipes, pistons & chimney so i bow to your knowledge

 

[randyrippley]

Besides the Saddleworth Moor fire, for the last four days theres been another major fire to the north of Bolton on the west side of Winter Hill. Its easily visible from the motorway at Skelmersdale. And this evening I saw across Morecambe Bay what looked like another in the Lakes.
The whole country in the north is totally dry and almost any kind of vegetation - even hay or corn - could catch fire.
There simply is no justification for taking the risk on the railway at the moment. It wouldn't surprise me to see some at least of the preserved lines dropping steam traction until we get some heavy rain

 

[broadgage]

I recall old BR training films that showed firemen how to fire modern steam locos to the best advantage. One particular tip was to frequently observe the degree of smoke from the chimney.
"Add a modest amount of coal, from three to six shovels according to size of engine. This should result initially in light grey smoke, when the exhaust becomes clear, it is time for a little more coal"

 

[chorleyjeff]

If these practices are done regular even on cold wet days, the whole steam programme on the mainline is a false advertising campaign. I don't remember seeing historic film footage in the 40's of a steam loco doing 75mph without any smoke emitting the chimney. Even on the GCR I've seen what a proper working looks like and a lot of smoke emits the chimney.

In the 1950s when playing cricket adjacent to the WCML at Barton between Preston and Lancaster and the steam trains were zipping along my memory is that there was some haze from loco chimneys but not clouds of unburnt carbons. Firemen seemed to know their job.
In winter I there would be steam visible from the chimney.

 

[TimboM]

The degree of smoke emitted by a steamer is no guide to the amount of work being done.
It depends on many factors, but under good conditions a steamer can develop full or nearly full power with almost no smoke. Steam/water vapour is unavoidable but is invisible in some weather conditions.

Under most conditions, a steam locomotive on a railtour will provide all or most of the tractive effort, with the diesel only providing electric train supply, and being available in case of need.
In the present circumstances though it is stated that much of the power will come from the diesel, this is IMHO justifiable in the present drought conditions to reduce the fire risk.
A steam locomotive if pushed hard is very liable to throw out hot sparks or cinders, most undesirable.

A very clear explanation, thanks.

So no "false advertising" - and in fact as per the Additional Tour Info shown in the very first post, when they're expecting to use significant diesel power (due to the current extreme conditions) they're doing exactly the opposite - i.e. clearly advertising the fact!

 

[richa2002]

From this video it looks like the 47 is pretty much doing all of the work. No chuffing to speak of from Flying Scotsman.

Still, better than no steam at all!

 

[infobleep]

If these practices are done regular even on cold wet days, the whole steam programme on the mainline is a false advertising campaign. I don't remember seeing historic film footage in the 40's of a steam loco doing 75mph without any smoke emitting the chimney. Even on the GCR I've seen what a proper working looks like and a lot of smoke emits the chimney.

If one was talking about being authentic, I don't remeber steam trains running non stop from Victoria to Victoira, via Guildford, so people could have lunch. So one might argue, it's not only the traction that is not authentic.

However I'm sure I've read that towards the end of steam you'd some services had diesel and steam working the same service together.

If that was the case perhaps the least authentic thing about these tours is the journeys they make and their stopping patterns.

 

[Spartacus]

Going back just a short time and it became common practice for the steam loco to be dropped entirely and for charters to be hauled by 'modern traction' throughout during droughts, but I expect that this resulted in not only a significant number of cancellations, but in the long term return bookings too. Most of the general public aren't too concerned about what's doing the work, as long as there's a steam loco up there somewhere. Most booking forms, flyers etc I've seen also contain a caveat about the advertised traction being subject to change, so they'd be perfectly within their rights to drop the steam loco, I think they should be commended for not doing so, even if as stated I think it's commercially wise to keep it on.

Regarding heritage lines, I've noticed a few seem to have increased diesel traction at the moment, though I don't know if it's a result of the weather or not. Most lines won't be putting the locos to the effort that a 60/75mph main line run might do, and even if they DO start a fire they're not likely to find themselves delaying a main line and making payments that way.

 

[superkev]

Perhaps having some steam engines fitted for oil firing like the Ffestinog may be a solution. A t least it's still steam.
K

 

[LordFlashheart]

Perhaps having some steam engines fitted for oil firing like the Ffestinog may be a solution. A t least it's still steam.
K

There's been no oil firing on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland railway for a number of years now. Better spark arrestors, ash pan drenches and reduced loads are used to mitigate and reduce the risk

 

[najaB]

I don't remember seeing historic film footage in the 40's of a steam loco doing 75mph without any smoke emitting the chimney. Even on the GCR I've seen what a proper working looks like and a lot of smoke emits the chimney.

Don't forget, today's coal isn't your grandad's coal.

 

[Geezertronic]

At least it is in steam and not left as a dead duck on the front

 

[John Webb]

.....Regarding heritage lines, I've noticed a few seem to have increased diesel traction at the moment, though I don't know if it's a result of the weather or not. Most lines won't be putting the locos to the effort that a 60/75mph main line run might do, and even if they DO start a fire they're not likely to find themselves delaying a main line and making payments that way.

North Yorkshire Moors Railway has been adding diesels to trains for several weeks because of the fire risk. (There was a short break after the weekend before last when significant rail fell for a few days.) They also run a Land Rover fire engine close to the line between Levisham and Goathland to tackle incipient fires when conditions warrant it. And they will drop steam altogether if the fire risk is at its highest, according to their website.

 

[Spartacus]

At least it is in steam and not left as a dead duck on the front

No, that's Mallard's new name!

 

[K.o.R]

I recall old BR training films that showed firemen how to fire modern steam locos to the best advantage. One particular tip was to frequently observe the degree of smoke from the chimney.
"Add a modest amount of coal, from three to six shovels according to size of engine. This should result initially in light grey smoke, when the exhaust becomes clear, it is time for a little more coal"

Similar instructions are given in the tutorial on the original Microsoft Train Simulator