Foot crossing near Cononley closed as horns on Class 80x trains “too quiet”

[DanNCL]

Reported by BBC News, a foot crossing near Cononley has been shut since December, and will remain shut for at least another six months, as the horns on the Class 800/801 “Azuma” fleet have been deemed “too quiet”.

A level crossing has been shut for more than six months because the horn used on the new Azuma trains is "too quiet".

Network Rail said the crossing, in Cononley, near Skipton, had been shut since December due to issues with "horn audibility".

Villagers said it meant they could not walk on a well-used footpath, despite the trains only running twice a day.

Train manufacturer Hitachi said the noise of the horns on the route is "as close to the maximum limit allowed".

Andy Brown, councillor for Aire Valley with Lothersdale Ward, said: "Somebody ordered a brand new train, a multi-million pound train, and it's been ordered with the horn too quiet.

"Their solution to this was not to say let's get a louder horn or sort out something about the speed of the train. No, their solution was to say we will close the footpath."

Network Rail was granted a six-month temporary closure order for the crossing in December 2020, which has now been extended for another six months.

Cononley level crossing shut for months over 'too quiet' train horn

The level crossing has so far been closed for half a year due to worries over "horn audibility".

www.bbc.co.uk

Hitachi are saying the horn volume was as close to the maximum limit allowed, but if that‘s the case how come this issue hasn’t cropped up with the class 91, 150, 158 and 333 fleets that have been running over this crossing for several years, nor the 331s that have been running for the same time as the 800/801s?

 

[pdeaves]

Ah, the perennial problem. Make the horns loud so people can hear you coming and the neighbours complain. Make them quieter for the neighbours and crossing users can't hear you. I suspect that a perfect 'sweet spot' does not exist!

 

[Deepgreen]

Utterly bizarre - are the 800s actually known to be quiet? Do train horns have to be so loud as to be heard over, say, full-volume earphones a quarter of a mile away? If so, I doubt if any are adequate. If Hitachi are right that the horns are very close to the maximum allowed, how close it that? Is there a minimum, and, if so and the horns comply, open the crossing and be done with it.

 

[Dan1982]

I suspect its not really a horn issue but a chance to close a crossing and potential safety hazzard.

 

[Highlandspring]

Reported by BBC News, a foot crossing near Cononley has been shut since December, and will remain shut for at least another six months, as the horns on the Class 800/801 “Azuma” fleet have been deemed “too quiet”.

Cononley level crossing shut for months over 'too quiet' train horn

The level crossing has so far been closed for half a year due to worries over "horn audibility".

www.bbc.co.uk

Hitachi are saying the horn volume was as close to the maximum limit allowed, but if that‘s the case how come this issue hasn’t cropped up with the class 91, 150, 158 and 333 fleets that have been running over this crossing for several years, nor the 331s that have been running for the same time as the 800/801s?

Ben Alder user worked level crossing near Dalwhinnie has been manned by an attendant for the passage of the Up and Down Highland Cheiftain daily since it went over to Azuma operation for the same reason. If the attendant isn’t on duty the train has to be cautioned.

 

[D6130]

but if that‘s the case how come this issue hasn’t cropped up with the class 91, 150, 158 and 333 fleets that have been running over this crossing for several years, nor the 331s that have been running for the same time as the 800/801s?

Very interestingly, this problem did arise at that crossing when the 333s were introduced more than twenty years ago....not because their horns were too quiet, but too loud! The 332s/333s had/have incredibly loud horns which just about deafened the occupants of the cab, let alone nearby residents. The good burghers of Cononley submitted a huge number of complaints to Northern Spirit, as the franchise was then called, about being rudely awakened every Monday to Saturday morning by the two empty stock trains (later combined into one) from Skipton to Bradford Forster Square between 05 00 and 05 30. As a result of this - and incidences at various other crossings around the network - the rule was brought in that horns at level crossings with 'Whistle' boards were only to be sounded in 'an emergency' between 23 30 and 07 00. (In 'an emergency' meaning if the driver spots someone either on or closely approaching the crossing). The issue here at Flosh footpath crossing is that it's part of the main village dog-walking circuit and is very well used. Many's the time I've had, often elderly, dogwalkers leap across in front of me - even after sounding the horn - and I've had to hope and pray that they didn't trip.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I wonder if one potential solution may be to install double whistle boards, as has been implemented at Hatches crossing between Ash Vale and Frimley, and I believe around Kemble. These consist of two 'W' boards on the same post, one above the other, and tell the driver to sound both high and low tones rather than just a single low tone.

 

[skyhigh]

Is it definitely the 80x horns that are the issue, and not the 331s? I haven't seen anything from NR specifically saying the 80x are at fault here

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The early and late ECS workings to Bradford could slow down for the crossing, and perhaps have a second quieter horn for those times. 'Costs' a few seconds, saves traction energy.

I live nearly one kilometre from a foot crossing, I can hear the horn when sitting by the open window. Not complaining, for I can check if the train is on time.

 

[skyhigh]

The early and late ECS workings could slow down for the crossing, and perhaps have a second quieter horn for those times. 'Costs' a few seconds, saves traction energy.

If the horn is too quiet, what good does it do making it quieter?

Slowing then re-accelerating also wouldn't save any traction energy.

 

[pdeaves]

Might the 'compliant with standards' thing be to do with how the horn is tested/measured? So many decibels at so much distance directly in front of the horn would measure some form of standard, for example, but takes no account of whether the horn is mounted below or above the body, whether any other equipment would act as a sideways baffle, and so on. The same physical horn could appear louder or quieter if mounted in a different train design.

 

[hexagon789]

Utterly bizarre - are the 800s actually known to be quiet? Do train horns have to be so loud as to be heard over, say, full-volume earphones a quarter of a mile away? If so, I doubt if any are adequate. If Hitachi are right that the horns are very close to the maximum allowed, how close it that? Is there a minimum, and, if so and the horns comply, open the crossing and be done with it.

From the RSSB standards, for trains capable of over 160km/h the minimum audibility is defined as 115dB at 5m and the maximum 120dB at 5m.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Slowing by coasting would surely save energy, the train would arrive a few seconds later.

If the horn is too quiet, what good does it do making it quieter?

Slowing then re-accelerating also wouldn't save any traction energy.

People complained about being woken by the horn of the early train. If it were slower, a quieter horn could be heard in time, so many seconds before reaching the crossing. No need to brake and accelerate hard, the train could just arrive a couple of minutes later.

 

[DanNCL]

The only class 80x worked services on that line are the 18:03 Kings Cross - Skipton plus the return empty working from Skipton to Neville Hill. The morning LNER service from Skipton is booked to use a class 91+mark 4 set.

 

[Darandio]

Slowing by coasting would surely save energy, the train would arrive a few seconds later.

A few seconds later where? LNER don't stop at Cononley so they would still have to accelerate whichever direction they were travelling and therefore use more energy, not save it.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

A few seconds or minutes later at the next stop. Saves energy, no need to brake, just let off power. Slower is quieter too, for people living near the line.

 

[Darandio]

As simple as that then. I'm assuming you have looked at speed limits, gradients and signal arrangements etc?

 

[Crossover]

A few seconds or minutes later at the next stop. Saves energy, no need to brake, just let off power. Slower is quieter too, for people living near the line.

Also screws up the headways and effectively reduces the tph on the line (Leeds to Skipton is a pretty busy line!)

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I do not know the line, but going a bit slower is surely easy enough? Particularly for early ECS workings.

 

[Taunton]

Ah, the perennial problem. Make the horns loud so people can hear you coming and the neighbours complain. Make them quieter for the neighbours and crossing users can't hear you. I suspect that a perfect 'sweet spot' does not exist!

USA did solve this one at some crossings by making the horn be mounted on a pole at the crossing, activated for the traditional USA long-long-short-long by track circuits.

 

[Highlandspring]

USA did solve this one at some crossings by making the horn be mounted on a pole at the crossing, activated for the traditional USA long-long-short-long by track circuits.

That exists in the UK as well, produced by Covtec - https://www.covtec.co.uk/services.html#sawd
Train detection is by radar rather than track circuit.

 

[Taunton]

The only downside of trackside "horns" is mission creep, the desire (which may be required by various legislation) to add lights to the sound for those who cannot hear it, spoken announcements as well as train horn sound, thus the need in Wales for bilingual announcements, announcements that then become extended because the "See it Say it Sorted" campaign grabs it, etc.

 

[skyhigh]

A few seconds or minutes later at the next stop. Saves energy, no need to brake, just let off power. Slower is quieter too, for people living near the line.

I do not know the line, but going a bit slower is surely easy enough? Particularly for early ECS workings.

Cononley is far enough away from stops on either side that slowing to an acceptable speed for the crossing (say 20mph) and staying at that speed until the next stop would wreck the timetable, at any time of the day. Don't forget that they have to fit into Leeds station, which is always busy.

People complained about being woken by the horn of the early train. If it were slower, a quieter horn could be heard in time, so many seconds before reaching the crossing. No need to brake and accelerate hard, the train could just arrive a couple of minutes later.

That was ages ago, the issue here is the horn is too quiet. Suggesting a quieter horn is of no use at all here.

 

[308165]

The BBC article isn't totally clear. The issue isn't that the design of the horn on Class 80X is too quiet. It is that the failure rate in service is sufficiently high that Network Rail became concerned just before Christmas and temporarily closed a number of crossings with whistle board protection due to increased risk.

In addition to Cononley there are around 10 crossings across LNE route that have been impacted.

 

[BrianW]

I guess a number of factors come into play, e.g: distance from 'Sound Whistle' to Crossing, 'attenuation' of sound over distance, esp eg with wind too, visibility esp with curves and trees, possible distractions, ambient ie background noise- traffic, howling gales, drenching and horizontal rain keeping people's heads down, mist, fog, possibility of two trains. Of course crossers should be careful and aware, but they are human and readily distracted. Crossing ought not to be a death sentence, which sometimes it is. I guess the footpath was there first, so onus on 'the railway'. Perhaps, esp if 'they' are found to have infringed standards, they will offer the community some kind of 'compensation'- maybe a cheap or free ticket to Skipton or Leeds, or Bradford?

 

[Horizon22]

80xs are known to have defective high-tone horns from time to time and I have heard rumblings that particular sites were having audio equipment installed to assess the standard and likelihood of this. If they are overall too "quiet", it would be a fundamental fault with the design

 

[_toommm_]

Could they not install horn ‘repeaters’ where there’s a speaker at the crossing and it replays the sound there the same volume that you’d expect from any other train? (Not sure of the official name for it).

 

[steve_wills]

Very interestingly, this problem did arise at that crossing when the 333s were introduced more than twenty years ago....not because their horns were too quiet, but too loud! The 332s/333s had/have incredibly loud horns which just about deafened the occupants of the cab, let alone nearby residents. The good burghers of Cononley submitted a huge number of complaints to Northern Spirit, as the franchise was then called, about being rudely awakened every Monday to Saturday morning by the two empty stock trains (later combined into one) from Skipton to Bradford Forster Square between 05 00 and 05 30. As a result of this - and incidences at various other crossings around the network - the rule was brought in that horns at level crossings with 'Whistle' boards were only to be sounded in 'an emergency' between 23 30 and 07 00. (In 'an emergency' meaning if the driver spots someone either on or closely approaching the crossing). The issue here at Flosh footpath crossing is that it's part of the main village dog-walking circuit and is very well used. Many's the time I've had, often elderly, dogwalkers leap across in front of me - even after sounding the horn - and I've had to hope and pray that they didn't trip.

Its now 00.00 and 06.00

I do wish NR would stop removing whistle boards from foot crossing.

 

[30907]

The only class 80x worked services on that line are the 18:03 Kings Cross - Skipton plus the return empty working from Skipton to Neville Hill. The morning LNER service from Skipton is booked to use a class 91+mark 4 set.

Is that in normal times or the result of current Azuma issues? I thought it had gone over to 80x?

A 20mph restriction would cost 2-3 minutes per train (ignoring the energy issue) - not ideal even if it can be timetable.

 

[DanNCL]

Is that in normal times or the result of current Azuma issues? I thought it had gone over to 80x?

A 20mph restriction would cost 2-3 minutes per train (ignoring the energy issue) - not ideal even if it can be timetable.

It did go over to 80x operation last year, but was planned to revert to 91+mark 4 operation from 7th June - the 80x issues brought that forward by a few weeks but the morning Skipton service had already been planned to revert to 91+mark 4 operation before the 80x issues cropped up.