Football banning orders

[yorksrob]

Seeing as "class" has been brought up, it's worth remembering that many of the hoolie crews of the 1980s were not made up of predominantly working class people. By day they were stockbrokers, bankers, lawyers and other white-collar types. They just liked to get coked up and have fights at the weekend.

I think the term you're looking for is "yuppies".

I prefer non-league football where you can turn up at leisure, stand anywhere and have a chinwag.

 

[Chew Chew]

I suppose the question is, what was the flag and why did it attract the attention of the police?

It had the name of a proscribed organisation on it.

It was unbelievably stupid and there was only ever going to be one outcome to what happened.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think the term you're looking for is "yuppies".

I prefer non-league football where you can turn up at leisure, stand anywhere and have a chinwag.

The term I'd like to use would fall foul of the forum rules... I'll stick to the Cockney Rhyming Slang: "Berk(erley Hunts)".

 

[tomuk]

Seeing as "class" has been brought up, it's worth remembering that many of the hoolie crews of the 1980s were not made up of predominantly working class people. By day they were stockbrokers, bankers, lawyers and other white-collar types. They just liked to get coked up and have fights at the weekend.

As a resident of town whose football club received some of the highest numbers of FBOs, which is a high achievement for a Division 2/3 club with attendances below 10,000, I can assure yout that there was a decided lack of stockbrokers, bankers, lawyers amongst their ranks.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As a resident of town whose football club received some of the highest numbers of FBOs, which is a high achievement for a Division 2/3 club with attendances below 10,000, I can assure yout that there was a decided lack of stockbrokers, bankers, lawyers amongst their ranks.

I was more meaning the "Chelsea Headhunters" and West Ham United's "Inter-City Crew". It certainly wasn't intended to be a blanket statement.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I suppose the question is, what was the flag and why did it attract the attention of the police?

Almost certainly Old Firm, and if he doesn't follow Scotland, it's more than likely that he's a Rangers fan. That means that it was almost certainly something to do with sectarianism, and if you ask me, 3 years isn't long enough for such an offence.

Seeing as "class" has been brought up, it's worth remembering that many of the hoolie crews of the 1980s were not made up of predominantly working class people. By day they were stockbrokers, bankers, lawyers and other white-collar types. They just liked to get coked up and have fights at the weekend.

At least in Scotland, it wasn't the case. Aberdeen casuals in the 1980s were very much working class types who were alienated from the city as a whole, although by the mid 1990s, they became a bit of a joke. ASC were genuinely hard lads back in the day though, and notable for the fact that they had some interesting alliances against Rangers hooligans in general.

Mind you, I have nothing wrong with an organised fight between groups of hooligans as long as they do it away from others.

 

[DarloRich]

Seeing as "class" has been brought up, it's worth remembering that many of the hoolie crews of the 1980s were not made up of predominantly working class people. By day they were stockbrokers, bankers, lawyers and other white-collar types. They just liked to get coked up and have fights at the weekend.

Not sure about that - the guys I know of who have banning orders aint no stockbrokers!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Can someone point to where I said ALL hooligans were white collar workers?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Not sure about that - the guys I know of who have banning orders aint no stockbrokers!

Probably worth pointing out that a stockbroker is likely to have the money to quietly negotiate his way out of it!

Mind you, a friend's dad was involved in quite a few rumbles in/around Tynecastle in the past. As he was a respectable company director by day, it wasn't anything uncommon for him to get arrested and then released without charge. I'd suggest that his regular Tuesday evening meeting with his other group of mates might have had something to do with that, though.

 

[Runningaround]

Do you really not think that, given the utterly abhorent behaviour of football fans at the time, Thatcher was entirely justified in taking steps? What are your feelings on known problem matches being played in empty grounds, or clubs being hit with fines when their fans repeatedly cause major issues - unfair?

Thatcher! The Prime Minister, SYP force and Tory backing tabloids, weren't they the lot who blamed the fans for Hiilsborough? Guess what the modernisation of stadiums and removal of cattle pens, the less hostile policing at games treating fans with a little more respect led to a rapid reduction of football hooliganism. Thatcher's policies were when it was at it's highest. But twenty years later her most feverant supporters decided they would latch on as it become the most recognisable and successful exports in the last 30 years and one of the only industries that we lead the world in. ''Was it Villa or West Ham David Cameron used to follow as a young boy''?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Guess what the modernisation of stadiums and removal of cattle pens, the less hostile policing at games treating fans with a little more respect led to a rapid reduction of football hooliganism.

I would argue that the modernisation of stadiums and the move to all-seater stadiums did a lot to kill off 80's-style hooliganism. The teams themselves realised by the end of the old First Division that there was serious money to be made in football, especially if they could start attracting families.

 

[Runningaround]

I would argue that the modernisation of stadiums and the move to all-seater stadiums did a lot to kill off 80's-style hooliganism. The teams themselves realised by the end of the old First Division that there was serious money to be made in football, especially if they could start attracting families.

Other than the removal of fences and barbed wire I'm not sure they played a big part I believe it was a more relaxed approach to fans, instead of herding them into a cage they were treated almost like humans, there's is a lesson here it's if you want animal behaviour treat them as one. If fans weren't interested in a ruck with each other I remember the Police getting bored and would goad the fans into retaliating. Riot Coppers chose that route in their career because they loved a scrap, being paid and protected by the law was handy backup.

But you see on here there will be some who will always follow the Tory backing press who overblew it with scare stories of the 80's, even then the trouble was among men of the same age(including the Police). Those same papers print editions practically rely on the Football fans buying them on the way to work. And how much more would the railway be in trouble if it wasn't for the Saturday travelling supporters.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would argue that the modernisation of stadiums and the move to all-seater stadiums did a lot to kill off 80's-style hooliganism. The teams themselves realised by the end of the old First Division that there was serious money to be made in football, especially if they could start attracting families.

I'd argue the all-seater stadia barely had an impact in and of itself. It was more the gentrification of football coupled with less-hostile policing that really made the difference. Terracing or rail seating works fine in Germany and in the non-league game, there isn't some magical thing about standing up that turns people into hooligans.

The policing of football compared to other sports still needs a bit of work. For example at the football if I want a beer at half-time I have to go down to the concourse on 40mins and join a queue, wait ages while the real-life version of the squeaky-voiced youth from The Simpsons struggles with the pump. Then I have to drink the beer in three or four gulps if I want to see the start of the second half. This isn't a good way to drink alcohol, so I tend not to bother. If I was at a rugby league game in the same stadium I could take my beer to my seat and take my time drinking it sensibly. As others have said, it's not as if rugby fans are perfectly behaved either.

 

[Runningaround]

I'd argue the all-seater stadia barely had an impact in and of itself. It was more the gentrification of football coupled with less-hostile policing that really made the difference. Terracing or rail seating works fine in Germany and in the non-league game, there isn't some magical thing about standing up that turns people into hooligans.

The policing of football compared to other sports still needs a bit of work. For example at the football if I want a beer at half-time I have to go down to the concourse on 40mins and join a queue, wait ages while the real-life version of the squeaky-voiced youth from The Simpsons struggles with the pump. Then I have to drink the beer in three or four gulps if I want to see the start of the second half. This isn't a good way to drink alcohol, so I tend not to bother. If I was at a rugby league game in the same stadium I could take my beer to my seat and take my time drinking it sensibly. As others have said, it's not as if rugby fans are perfectly behaved either.

The WRU is kerbing drinking in the stands with alcohol free zones, to stop the constant up and down for drinks and the toilet, the most infamous incident is a heavily intoxicated fan being sick in a kids hood in front.
Drinking in small non-league grounds or terraced stands is fine as your not getting in the way and bothering others around you but you would need to beef up security at league level as it'd be a free for all for the first few seasons it came in. Anyway the beer is so appalling and expensive at League Football it's not worth drinking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is now talk of allowing beer in view of the pitch again, though I don't know how far it has progressed.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'd argue the all-seater stadia barely had an impact in and of itself. It was more the gentrification of football coupled with less-hostile policing that really made the difference. Terracing or rail seating works fine in Germany and in the non-league game, there isn't some magical thing about standing up that turns people into hooligans.

It's probably worth pointing out that the gentrification was taking place even before Hillsborough. I forget the details, but it was in the mid 80s when the First Division clubs really started to flex their muscles in terms of finances. Perhaps the costs of compliance with the Taylor Report was the tipping point, but it's obvious that the game was changing regardless of what hooligans were doing in the mid 80s.

Still, I think all-seater stadia did a job in terms of making grounds much more family friendly. There is a certain point in that terraces are associated with a nasty atmosphere, and while terracing at Old Trafford wouldn't change a thing, I wouldn't want to put terraces in Ibrox or at The Den.

My other argument against terraces is that it might lend itself to that stupid choreographed ultras culture taking hold.

The policing of football compared to other sports still needs a bit of work. For example at the football if I want a beer at half-time I have to go down to the concourse on 40mins and join a queue, wait ages while the real-life version of the squeaky-voiced youth from The Simpsons struggles with the pump. Then I have to drink the beer in three or four gulps if I want to see the start of the second half. This isn't a good way to drink alcohol, so I tend not to bother. If I was at a rugby league game in the same stadium I could take my beer to my seat and take my time drinking it sensibly. As others have said, it's not as if rugby fans are perfectly behaved either.

I think it's an outdated concept nowadays, to be honest. I can understand limiting booze 30 years ago, but society has changed and no-one is going to get obliterated at a stadium on booze at those prices. More to the point, allowing people to have a couple of pints while they watch will also give smaller clubs more badly-needed revenue.

 

[Runningaround]

It's probably worth pointing out that the gentrification was taking place even before Hillsborough. I forget the details, but it was in the mid 80s when the First Division clubs really started to flex their muscles in terms of finances. Perhaps the costs of compliance with the Taylor Report was the tipping point, but it's obvious that the game was changing regardless of what hooligans were doing in the mid 80s.

Still, I think all-seater stadia did a job in terms of making grounds much more family friendly. There is a certain point in that terraces are associated with a nasty atmosphere, and while terracing at Old Trafford wouldn't change a thing, I wouldn't want to put terraces in Ibrox or at The Den.

My other argument against terraces is that it might lend itself to that stupid choreographed ultras culture taking hold.



I think it's an outdated concept nowadays, to be honest. I can understand limiting booze 30 years ago, but society has changed and no-one is going to get obliterated at a stadium on booze at those prices. More to the point, allowing people to have a couple of pints while they watch will also give smaller clubs more badly-needed revenue.

Supporters get stocked up at the supermarkets prior to boarding their trains/coaches etc, they could be starting at 6am in the morning pubs especially down south aren't cheap and have increased their prices significantly since lockdowns finished, those near to the ground and on route from the station may also be closed if its a high profile game what's not finished is confiscated so they drink as much as they can before getting close to the ground, Cocaine is also far cheaper and easier to conceal than alcohol. Their next drink will be at the ground and as they're drunk already it's just topping up. The problem is the policing has pushed fans into concentrating their drinking and prevented a relaxed period to drink at a slower spread out pace. Racing doesn't have these controls but they too have problems with drinking due to the length of the day.
Terraces have absolutely no effect on behaviour and is a by product of the over the top restrictions introduced by the Taylor report which was written up after Hillsborough and was influenced by the government of the times belief that fans were at fault.
It's how fans are treated.
Football banning orders are only effective at high profile games where those linked to these clubs will be sought out the groups they and they associated with can be monitored, or traveling abroad where a passport is needed to travel. It won't stop anyone attending a non-league game where policing is rare. Home ticketing has also allowed fans to by-pass a postcode and address filter, you don't need your address to post an online ticket, postcodes could be barred from buying tickets for games in home areas if it was from the area of the rivals, you use a vague one, even if you do get one posted and stay in a hotel you get your tickets posted it to it.

 

[Runningaround]

It's probably worth pointing out that the gentrification was taking place even before Hillsborough. I forget the details, but it was in the mid 80s when the First Division clubs really started to flex their muscles in terms of finances. Perhaps the costs of compliance with the Taylor Report was the tipping point, but it's obvious that the game was changing regardless of what hooligans were doing in the mid 80s.

Still, I think all-seater stadia did a job in terms of making grounds much more family friendly. There is a certain point in that terraces are associated with a nasty atmosphere, and while terracing at Old Trafford wouldn't change a thing, I wouldn't want to put terraces in Ibrox or at The Den.

My other argument against terraces is that it might lend itself to that stupid choreographed ultras culture taking hold.



I think it's an outdated concept nowadays, to be honest. I can understand limiting booze 30 years ago, but society has changed and no-one is going to get obliterated at a stadium on booze at those prices. More to the point, allowing people to have a couple of pints while they watch will also give smaller clubs more badly-needed revenue.

Hillsborough was the tipping point on the removal of fencing, by no means did it improve the attitude towards football fans from the Government or the tory newspaper reading public. It was SKY that was the catalyst to ground improvements due to the massive TV deal shiny new stands looked more inviting than the cess pits they proceeded, then along with better respectful policing and a targeted approach to those causing trouble it became welcoming to families, there was also a massive influence from the USA and clubs realised you can make a lot of money from badgered parents buying kits and merchandise.
I don't know if your calling pricing out the working class as ''gentrification'', as Rupert and Henry have replaced Tommy and Dave as fans.

Interesting Martin Tylers just been puled up for using Hooliganism and Hillsborough in the same sentence in talking about 80's football. Even if he didn't mean to its as if some just can't help linking the two.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The WRU is kerbing drinking in the stands with alcohol free zones, to stop the constant up and down for drinks and the toilet, the most infamous incident is a heavily intoxicated fan being sick in a kids hood in front.
Drinking in small non-league grounds or terraced stands is fine as your not getting in the way and bothering others around you but you would need to beef up security at league level as it'd be a free for all for the first few seasons it came in. Anyway the beer is so appalling and expensive at League Football it's not worth drinking.

Agree that the prices (and in the case of my club's ground, the poor quality of both beer and service) discourages buying a beer. However, when the rules designed to prevent disorder actually create a situation where people will drink in a more unhealthy way and thus more likely to cause disorder, then those rules are less than useless.

People often talk about how continental attitudes to alcohol differ from ours in the UK. I'd argue that part of that is that we treat alcohol as either a rebellious counter-culture thing, or as some shameful taboo that should be kept hidden: neither of which are conducive to using it in a sensible or mature matter.

while terracing at Old Trafford wouldn't change a thing, I wouldn't want to put terraces in Ibrox or at The Den.

Have you met "real" Manchester United supporters as opposed to kids from Somerset who wanted a Ronaldo shirt for their tenth birthday? They're among the worst of the so-called big six for hooliganism. (The former, not the latter )

 

[GS250]

The press stereotype of your average football 'hoolie' being unemployed (or poorly reimbursed) and coming from a broken home was already shattered in the 1980s. Several books were written on the subject and what was made clear was the 'bad news brigade' were an eclectic mix from a cross section of society. Builders, mechanics, small business owners, forces personnel, office workers, IT techs, truck drivers you name it. Yes, of course there was a small percentage of those who fitted the incorrect stereotype. The shock horror portrayed by the mainstream media in 1998 World Cup when those arrested included an antiques dealer, carer and stockbroker pretty much fell on deaf ears for those who already knew the score.

 

[Runningaround]

Agree that the prices (and in the case of my club's ground, the poor quality of both beer and service) discourages buying a beer. However, when the rules designed to prevent disorder actually create a situation where people will drink in a more unhealthy way and thus more likely to cause disorder, then those rules are less than useless.

People often talk about how continental attitudes to alcohol differ from ours in the UK. I'd argue that part of that is that we treat alcohol as either a rebellious counter-culture thing, or as some shameful taboo that should be kept hidden: neither of which are conducive to using it in a sensible or mature matter.


Have you met "real" Manchester United supporters as opposed to kids from Somerset who wanted a Ronaldo shirt for their tenth birthday? They're among the worst of the so-called big six for hooliganism.

There has been a relaxation of pub opening times in an attempt to encourage a continental style drinking culture where it was spread out through the day and didn't encourage drinkers to neck there pint at 11am and pile out the pubs & clubs all at the same time. It didn't really work it just they got more pissed instead of heading out later.
The current restrictions around football matches just feeds into the mindset to drink as much as you can when you can, shutting pubs around the ground means the next opportunity after the train is the ground, even if they did open they and the pubs are so expensive now that Cocaine and 24 packs from Tesco are less wallet busting. And as the pub trades found once drinkers get used to drinking at home, or elsewhere they tend not to return.

But of course the problems are overblown and nowhere near as bad as it's was, yet the cloud still hangs over professional football club supporters like no other groups, they even get looked down upon by this lot. Has anyone publicised the state the Real Ale trailers get into? Many will be combining trains and beer ticks, they are also associated with groundhopping and the reason they attend non-league is they can get drunk, even wetting themselves.
Between the late 80's and before social media, trouble was kept out the papers and news broadcasts as some thrived off the publicity. Today tv broadcasts still switch cameras away from pitch invaders.

 

[roversfan2001]

Cocaine is also far cheaper and easier to conceal than alcohol.

This is a problem that really came to the fore during the Euros last year - cocaine use amongst football fans has increased hugely, particularly amongst the younger generation (and I mean fans who aren't old enough to legally drink but can pick up a bag or two from their mates instead - like you say, easier to conceal). I'd argue it's not cheaper though!

 

[Runningaround]

This is a problem that really came to the fore during the Euros last year - cocaine use amongst football fans has increased hugely, particularly amongst the younger generation (and I mean fans who aren't old enough to legally drink but can pick up a bag or two from their mates instead - like you say, easier to conceal). I'd argue it's not cheaper though!

They buy it in larger quantities and split the cost and for the equivalent hit is cheaper than 4/5 pints in a Central London pub.
Then of course you have spice and the extreme strength Cannabis. They ban a substance and the problem gets worse. ''How does that work''?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

This is a problem that really came to the fore during the Euros last year - cocaine use amongst football fans has increased hugely, particularly amongst the younger generation (and I mean fans who aren't old enough to legally drink but can pick up a bag or two from their mates instead - like you say, easier to conceal). I'd argue it's not cheaper though!

Cheaper than the beer inside the stadium, probably!

 

[Iskra]

I would argue that the modernisation of stadiums and the move to all-seater stadiums did a lot to kill off 80's-style hooliganism. The teams themselves realised by the end of the old First Division that there was serious money to be made in football, especially if they could start attracting families.

I'd argue the all-seater stadia barely had an impact in and of itself. It was more the gentrification of football coupled with less-hostile policing that really made the difference. Terracing or rail seating works fine in Germany and in the non-league game, there isn't some magical thing about standing up that turns people into hooligans.

The policing of football compared to other sports still needs a bit of work. For example at the football if I want a beer at half-time I have to go down to the concourse on 40mins and join a queue, wait ages while the real-life version of the squeaky-voiced youth from The Simpsons struggles with the pump. Then I have to drink the beer in three or four gulps if I want to see the start of the second half. This isn't a good way to drink alcohol, so I tend not to bother. If I was at a rugby league game in the same stadium I could take my beer to my seat and take my time drinking it sensibly. As others have said, it's not as if rugby fans are perfectly behaved either.

I'd credit the proliferation of CCTV, mobile phones with video recording ability, police aircraft and drones which capture footage. Back in the 1990's if someone threw a punch at the football they would have likely got away with it unless directly in front of a copper. Now if someone did that, they might get away with it at the time, but they'd probably get an early morning call in the following weeks and find themselves in hot water. I believe this has killed real football hooliganism and made it an extremely fringe activity. That said, not that long ago I did see someone punch a lone and moronic opposition fan who decided to start chanting for his own team in a crowd of home fans, he hit the deck and everyone just walked-on like nothing had happened and I very much doubt the police caught up with the offender. I think if you don't engage in idiotic behaviour as a fan you are very unlikely to get caught up in anything, unless the game is policed by South Yorkshire Police.

What you still get a bit of is wannabe teenage 'hardmen*' who engage in posturing trying to live-out the 'romanticised glory days.' These are usually soon noticed by the police and aren't actually interested in violence anyway, they might hide behind police lines and give verbal abuse or throw a plastic bottle, but take the police away and they soon go quiet.

Most trouble at football is just drunken idiocy, no different to what goes on in most town centres on a Saturday night, but the policing, media and legislative response to anything involving football fans is much more severe.

Anyone interested in this subject and on Twitter should follow these two accounts, who tweet on the subject:

https://twitter.com/WeAreTheFSA https://twitter.com/FairCop_

*Usually about 8 stone wet through and wearing fake clobber that's too big for them.

 

[roversfan2001]

It didn't take long to see something of interest on one of the above linked accounts:

https://twitter.com/FairCop_/status/1555095009359167489

I suspect tackling a supposed rise in cocaine use in a football context will be a high priority for police this season. Unlike last season possession of cocaine is now a football related offence meaning if you’re convicted you’re facing a Football Banning Order application.

I take it all the middle classes that get on it every week at the rugby and the races every week won't have their passports taken off them for it anytime soon? There's plenty of legal avenues to go down for possession and supply of Class A drugs, slapping an FBO on top is a blatant overreach of power.

 

[Runningaround]

It didn't take long to see something of interest on one of the above linked accounts:

https://twitter.com/FairCop_/status/1555095009359167489



I take it all the middle classes that get on it every week at the rugby and the races every week won't have their passports taken off them for it anytime soon? There's plenty of legal avenues to go down for possession and supply of Class A drugs, slapping an FBO on top is a blatant overreach of power.

What happens if your on your way to a game without a ticket and get caught with cocaine can you claim to not be following the football and therefore keep your passport ?
Or is it if you happen to be in the area going shopping and trouble kicks off in the pub your in do you all get FBO's just because there is a football match on nearby?
If a Wrexham resident wants to go to Chester shopping at the same time they play each other do they have to book a seat on the supporters bus to be escorted into the Deva Stadium?

Just imagine a Trainspotter getting searched on Crewe platform and having his sharp pencil taken off him, or ''kettled'' into an away pub as he disembarked off the same train as a group of supporters.
Its been known for kids to be frogmarched with their dads into a nearby ''away pub'' without any reason other than being a football supporter.
Anyone seen ''Railway Bashers'' they weren't any different to ''Football Specials'', but I never saw a line of coppers welcoming off the train waiting to bash their heads with a baton.

 

[GS250]

It didn't take long to see something of interest on one of the above linked accounts:

https://twitter.com/FairCop_/status/1555095009359167489



I take it all the middle classes that get on it every week at the rugby and the races every week won't have their passports taken off them for it anytime soon? There's plenty of legal avenues to go down for possession and supply of Class A drugs, slapping an FBO on top is a blatant overreach of power.

Use of class A substances also very prolific at gigs etc .

Btw Simon Garner was a legend for us (Wealdstone). Helped us to two successive promotions in the Isthmian Leagues. Great attitude and ability for a bloke in his late 30s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Use of class A substances also very prolific at gigs etc .

Btw Simon Garner was a legend for us (Wealdstone). Helped us to two successive promotions in the Isthmian Leagues. Great attitude and ability for a bloke in his late 30s.

Also scored the first ever goal at Huddersfield Town's then-new stadium... unfortunately he was playing for Wycombe Wanderers at the time!

 

[tomuk]

I take it all the middle classes that get on it every week at the rugby and the races every week won't have their passports taken off them for it anytime soon? There's plenty of legal avenues to go down for possession and supply of Class A drugs, slapping an FBO on top is a blatant overreach of power.

Illicit drug users to face tougher consequences

'Recreational' drug users to face tougher penalties under new proposals subject to consultation.

www.gov.uk

So-called recreational drug users will face a fine and could have their passports and driving licences seized under new proposals announced today (Monday 18th July).