• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Forbidden from using power socket in station waiting room

Status
Not open for further replies.

rs101

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2013
Messages
310
I've been to several coffee shops which have power sockets around the walls (probably been there decades) and power sockets set into some of the tables. None of the sockets are labelled as being for public use or not, but everyone uses them without complaint.

Same with one of the restaurants at Heathrow Terminal 3 - they have a row of seats facing a counter along the wall. Each of those has a power socket, obviously for customer use, but none are labelled as such.


If anything, given that some sockets on trains are specifically labelled as not for public use, it's fair to assume that those with no label are available for all to use. Especially if there's a single socket next to every seat...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

dosxuk

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
1,742
I can answer that last bit, they most certainly would charge you. But to be fair they make this perfectly clear when booking. Which is why I always suggest to people reliant on their mobile phones for this sort of thing to carry a power bank with them, or at the very least keep an eye on their battery power and if it gets below a certain percentage stop using it for non-essential purposes.

Or, carry a print out of your boarding pass as well. Easy enough to keep in your bag until / if it's needed and stops any panics about running out of battery life.
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
surely the best response would be to ask the chap to calculate the amount of electricity used and offer to pay...:D

I suspect some people have little grasp of energy useage. Maybe the security guy was worried the nearest Pendolino would drop back to a maximum speed of 50mph or something if the sort of power to charge a phone was being drawn?
 

spag23

On Moderation
Joined
4 Nov 2012
Messages
793
I reckon the earlier post's estimate of a charger's consumption was an order of magnitude too large. My own charging registered only one Watt on a plug-top meter. That's just over £1.00 per year of continuous use. Or one hundredth of a penny per hour. Using their toilet paper represents a hundred times more heinous a "theft". So watch out for the security staff peering under the cubicle door!
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
So you're sat there, security guard comes in, sees you've plugged your phone in to charge and that the vending machine has been unplugged?

Where on earth did you get the idea that the OP unplugged the vending machine from?

Just because there is an electrical socket on the wall it doesnt mean you can use it.
Why would you think you can anyway?

I mean, a large number of waiting rooms do have sockets that are meant for the public to use.
So I would ask why would someone assume they couldn't use a socket that wasn't marked to say they couldn't.

I don’t see how we’ve managed to generate 3 pages of waffle from 1 very small incident!

Security Guard “Can you not use the plugs to charge your phone?”

Person: “Ok no problem”

Done.

As above. Many waiting rooms, and other similar areas and coffee shops and the like do have publicly usable sockets. That is what has caused a lot of this discussion.

Connecting unprotected delicate equipment to unknown power sources is not a good idea.
I am no electrical engineer but I do know that the "cleaners" power supply on trains was not suitable for electronics.
In industrial plants where there heavy duty electric motors, cranes, arc melting etc are in use, delicate electronics must have special protection.
I would be very wary of connecting anything up to a socket unless it is marked as suitable for public use, particularly on the electric railway and its buildings.

As above, many places do have sockets that are meant for public use, without being marked as such. If anything the usual convention on the railway is for sockets not for public use to be marked.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Or, carry a print out of your boarding pass as well. Easy enough to keep in your bag until / if it's needed and stops any panics about running out of battery life.
That rather negates the paper-saving and ink-saving benefits of e-tickets, though.

I think when I last flew (some time ago now! Trains are better! Ferries slightly better!) that my passport was used as my ticket and boarding pass too. That's clearly not going to work for the railway, but maybe they could link travel tickets to a contactless payment card? Otherwise, codes on phone screens it is!
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,581
I think when I last flew ... that my passport was used as my ticket and boarding pass too.
Ticket less travel has been the norm for air for quite some time now, but are you sure about no boarding pass? I thought they were a legal requirement, and I can't think of any flight I have ever made (including on budget airlines) where a boarding pass has not been required. Customs and Immigration sometimes demand to see them as evidence of where you are travelling to or from, the gate staff need to check them to prove you are entitled to board that plane (particularly if you are rerouted), duty-free shops demand to see them, and the boarding pass shows which seat you are allocated.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
Ticket less travel has been the norm for air for quite some time now, but are you sure about no boarding pass? I thought they were a legal requirement, and I can't think of any flight I have ever made (including on budget airlines) where a boarding pass has not been required. Customs and Immigration sometimes demand to see them as evidence of where you are travelling to or from, the gate staff need to check them to prove you are entitled to board that plane (particularly if you are rerouted), duty-free shops demand to see them, and the boarding pass shows which seat you are allocated.
Not sure but I think it was unallocated seating, internal Schengen-to-Schengen flight so immigration, customs, entitlement and duty-free not concerns. I think passport was scanned at gate to prove I was booked on, or at least name checked against a list.
 

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,754
But even at a nominal, cost a fair few thousand mobiles being charged everyday over a year will still add up !
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,439
Location
Yorkshire
But even at a nominal, cost a fair few thousand mobiles being charged everyday over a year will still add up !
...to almost nothing. Train companies are investing in providing charging facilities for good reasons including generating goodwill, matching the competition and also it's in the train companies interests to encourage people to use e-tickets, as this will reduce the train companies costs by £millions.
 

BlueFox

Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
759
Location
Carlisle
How many people carry a fan heater round in their bag?

Not a fan heater, but I was recently on a train near a woman who had plugged in heated hair curling tongs. I imagine they draw more current than a laptop or phone charger. I was hoping they'd trip a fuse half way through so she had lopsided hair...
 

rs101

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2013
Messages
310
Not sure but I think it was unallocated seating, internal Schengen-to-Schengen flight so immigration, customs, entitlement and duty-free not concerns. I think passport was scanned at gate to prove I was booked on, or at least name checked against a list.

Yep, seen it on internal flights in Sweden.
 

Belperpete

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
1,581
Not a fan heater, but I was recently on a train near a woman who had plugged in heated hair curling tongs. I imagine they draw more current than a laptop or phone charger. I was hoping they'd trip a fuse half way through so she had lopsided hair...
She might also be unpopular with other people wanting to charge their mobiles, as I assume they are all on the one supply.
 

plugwash

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
1,549
Not a fan heater, but I was recently on a train near a woman who had plugged in heated hair curling tongs. I imagine they draw more current than a laptop or phone charger.
I looked at a few random models on argos and it seems they are around 50W. Phone chargers range from around 5W-20W, laptop chargers range from around 60W-120W.

I reckon the earlier post's estimate of a charger's consumption was an order of magnitude too large. My own charging registered only one Watt on a plug-top meter. That's just over £1.00 per year of continuous use.
Either your plug in meter was way off (they are notoriously inaccurate at low power levels) or your phone was already nearly charged and so wasn't drawing much.
 
Last edited:

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Not a fan heater, but I was recently on a train near a woman who had plugged in heated hair curling tongs. I imagine they draw more current than a laptop or phone charger. I was hoping they'd trip a fuse half way through so she had lopsided hair...

I've got a ZX81 and a dinky portable telly that I'm tempted to take on a train with me. :) 3D Monster Maze, anyone?
 

adc82140

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2008
Messages
2,928
Conversely, hospitals many years ago had red "X-ray" sockets for the mobile X-ray machines. Nothing untoward would happen if you plugged anything else in. They were just on high current circuits. However at one hospital I worked at a radiographer plugged the machine into a standard white socket. That didn't end well. Soon after the red plugs and sockets were changed to something physically different to the rest.

Today it's all changed. All battery powered with standard 13A charging.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
Assuming that the socket was not specifically marked "for public use", you should be grateful that you were merely asked to desist from what you were doing and that the official was satisfied that you complied. You could have been reported or arrested for theft (of electricity).

Seriously, nobody is going to be arrested over something as petty as this. I often use the waiting room/snack bar on platform 9/10 at Clapham Junction and there is usually somebody using at least one of the plug sockets to charge their phone without any problems at all. As for the OP it's not clear whether this security person had a good reason or was just being petty?
 

Salesy

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2017
Messages
95
S.13 Theft Act 1968 states: “A person who dishonestly uses without due authority, or dishonestly causes to be wasted or diverted, any electricity commits an offence.”

There are effectively two things in question here:

1\ Did you have due authority to use it? This could include implied permission, although I would argue that would require more evidence than merely an available socket.

2\ Was your use dishonest? Here, the relevant test would be that from Ivey v Genting Casinos (UK) Ltd [2017] UKSC 67 which involves ascertaining the genuinely held knowledge or belief of the defendant as to the facts and then applying the objective standards of ordinary decent people.

It’s not clear cut but I would argue that the offence could be made out. It is unlikely to be in the public interest to prosecute however.

It is one of those crimes that lots of people commit, like speeding or being drunk in licensed premises, but it is a crime nonetheless.
 

Salesy

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2017
Messages
95
Obviously, if it is made clear that the sockets are for public use then you would have ‘due authority’ and wouldn’t commit the offence.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
I reckon the earlier post's estimate of a charger's consumption was an order of magnitude too large. My own charging registered only one Watt on a plug-top meter. That's just over £1.00 per year of continuous use. Or one hundredth of a penny per hour. Using their toilet paper represents a hundred times more heinous a "theft". So watch out for the security staff peering under the cubicle door!
Surely it's not about the costs but the fact they thought they weren't allowed to be doing that

I mean if they had authorisation and by doing this it would actually cause trains to run slower, I doubt the security guard would tell them to stop because they had authorisation and that is all that matters. That is the impression some people leave with me. It may not be their intended impression of course.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
Hmmm, I wonder if anyone would mind me plugging in my mini Marshall Stack and blowing a bit of Led Zep out, on headphones of course :)
Why be so anti-social and keep it all to yourself? Surely you'd want to entertain the rest of us?
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
7,447
Location
UK
There is legal precedent for "theft of electricity" to be prosecuted in this case. It does however seem rather churlish to tell people not to do this unless there was already a sticker on it stating "not for public use", as the convention nowadays is that a socket is available for public use if it is in a public place and there's nothing saying it isn't for public use.

Technically it's not theft, as electricity cannot be stolen under the Theft Act
 

4COR

Member
Joined
30 Jan 2019
Messages
441
Technically it's not theft, as electricity cannot be stolen under the Theft Act

Though, section 13 of said act (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/13) which states:

13 Abstracting of electricity.
A person who dishonestly uses without due authority, or dishonestly causes to be wasted or diverted, any electricity shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

Whether this counts as "dishonestly" using the electricity is another argument (see section 2!), though on the whole scheme of things, compared to the industrial scale abstraction by organised crime, this pales into insignificance.
 

AnkleBoots

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2017
Messages
506
Thank you all for continuing to contribute to this thread.

I was wondering about the matter of the name and address and found this elsewhere:

...23 (1) of the railway byelaws simply says,

Name and address
Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or
attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address
when asked by an authorised person

Is it correct to say that the security guard is an "authorised person" but "abstracting electricity" is not a Byelaw breach?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top