Forgetting to carry a Railcard - how do you think passengers should be treated?

[Llanigraham]

As a member of the National Trust I get free entry to their property, but if I forget my card I have to pay full entry price.
As a member of CADW I get free entry to their properties and English Heritage, but if I forget I pay full price.
If I want to enter a car rally I have to have my Licence and Club membership card otherwise I don't get my entry.
If I go to the gym I don't get in without my membership card.
If I expect to buy a Senior Citizens bus ticket and I don't have my Card I pay full price.

So to all the anti-railway nay-sayers on here, what is the difference with these things and the case described here? Nothing!! So sorry you anti-people but grow up and shut up!!

 

[Clip]

I will not comment about the meaning of "rife" but I average about three to four passengers a shift that can not produce a valid railcard.

for one guard over a 5 day week thats pretty rife to me 1 a week would not be so but I am not a scholar of the English language so maybe it is I that is wrong.

 

[MikeWh]

The thing that I really do think is ridiculous is the process of adding a railcard to ones oyster card.

I didn't know until reading on here that one had to continue to carry the railcard - fortunately not relevant to me - but that really is a case where the railcard has been validated at the point it was added to the oyster.

and the Oyster could then be passed to someone else. A validated (by touching in) Oyster card is the equivalent of a ticket, so the requirement to continue holding the railcard is very relevant.

Having said all that, and at the risk of going completely off-topic, there is one scenario where I do believe they have gone too far. Technically you are supposed to have your railcard with you when travelling by bus. In that an Oyster card which has (or could) capped is effectively the same as a travelcard, I agree. But I struggle with the concept where the intention is to solely use the card on buses that day. However, we're now straying way off topic ...

 

[reb0118]

for one guard over a 5 day week

Four shifts a week. Just under 9 hrs. per shift. I think my record is five railcard "no shows" on one E&G service (a 50 min. journey). I get the impression that not many guards up here check every railcard every time.

I charge the difference if the passenger holds an out of date railcard that has only recently expired. I also withdraw the expired railcard.

I sell a new ticket if the passenger can not produce any railcard and advise the passenger that they may be eligible for a refund on their original ticket.

The vast majority of these involve tickets purchased from a TVM or on-line discounted with a Y-P (16 ~ 25) railcard.

 

[bb21]

I charge the difference if the passenger holds an out of date railcard that has only recently expired. I also withdraw the expired railcard.

I think that is a reasonable compromise, as they get the benefit of the doubt, but once only.

 

[Clip]

The vast majority of these involve tickets purchased from a TVM or on-line discounted with a Y-P (16 ~ 25) railcard.

Seems to be a favourite down here as well that option. Funny that

 

[yorkie]

The basic point is that the penalty for failing to carry the Railcard is disproportionate. ....

...when travelling with some Train Operating Companies, not all.

 

[VisualAcid]

People forget things, it happens. The "punishment" being different for each journey is the problem really. Forgetting it for Leeds-London is a whole world of pain compared to say Grangetown-Cardiff Central. I think a reasonable idea would be to have a fee of say £20 below which a new ticket would have to be bought, which would pay for the TOC's customer service verifying the Railcard (I think it would anyway).

 

[yorkie]

...Forgetting it for Leeds-London is a whole world of pain compared to say Grangetown-Cardiff Central...

Indeed, which is why, in the absence of a national policy to adequately address this matter, the 'InterCity' Train Companies are generally going to have more lenient policies than the shorter distance providers, especially those in Penalty Fare areas.

 

[AndyW33]

One other thing that I "think" nobody has addressed yet is if the railcard reaches its expiry date after the ticket has been purchased but before the validity of the (return) ticket expires. On the present system, if the ticket is purchased from a staffed office, no doubt the purchaser is reminded. With on-line systems and TVMs, they aren't. In either case if they fail to renew they can be charged "something" on the return journey.
For a fully automated system to work, you'd either have to accept that for non-Advance period return tickets the traveller only has to have a valid railcard on the day of outward travel, or arrange that (like passports) unexpired railcard validity can be transferred to a new card so they can be issued for longer than 12 months/2 years etc, and do a railcard renewal at the same time as the ticket sale.
Complicated - sure would be!

 

[maniacmartin]

Is a railcard valid until 04.29 the day after expiry? Most tickets are but I don't see anything to say railcards also are.

 

[island]

Is a railcard valid until 04.29 the day after expiry? Most tickets are but I don't see anything to say railcards also are.

I think a pragmatic approach would be taken in the very unlikely event of a ticket inspection between 0001 and 0429 on the day after the Railcard expired.

 

[Harpers Tate]

As a member of the National Trust I get free entry to their property, but if I forget my card I have to pay full entry price.
As a member of CADW I get free entry to their properties and English Heritage, but if I forget I pay full price.
If I want to enter a car rally I have to have my Licence and Club membership card otherwise I don't get my entry.
If I go to the gym I don't get in without my membership card.
If I expect to buy a Senior Citizens bus ticket and I don't have my Card I pay full price.

So to all the anti-railway nay-sayers on here, what is the difference with these things and the case described here? Nothing!! So sorry you anti-people but grow up and shut up!!

I adore these comparisons because they are just about always flawed. Of course there are differences; huge ones.

First - a Railcard doesn't give free anything; it entitles a discount. So all but the last item don't compare at all.

But even if they did - the key differences that arise with practically ALL such futile comparisions are

1: On the Railway, it is quite possible for one to (either inadvertently or deliberately) begin to use the service provided without the required documentation. Whereas, you typically cannot get into (for example) a NT or CADW (etc) premises without FIRST paying or showing your card. You can't obtain a discount on a bus without FIRST showing your entitlement. You can't enter and then later be challenged. You can on a train.

2: Typically (but not entirely) it's practice to purchase admission to such attractions or onto buses on entry and not in advance. Thus the price required is established on entry. If you don't have your discount entitlement, then you pay full or walk away. However it's widespread, indeed, promoted, that one will purchase train fares in advance, and you may well not have to prove your discount entitlement at the point of purchase (eg if online); so it becomes an easy oversight for it to have expired, say.

3: I suspect (without knowing) that the Railway is almost unique in that - where a discounted fare is purchased but the requisite entitlement is not presented or not valid, it charges the full price again (or more) and treats the discounted price already paid as worthless, or in some cases as an offence. I suspect the majority of other situations used in comparison would, if the circumstances were able to arise, charge merely the difference between what was paid and what then needed to be paid.

 

[tony6499]

When I worked a DOO train that needed a guard and did a ticket/railcard check the amount of non carriers was at least 1 a carriage. Not saying it was a coincidence that they bought tickets requiring a railcard, travelled on a DOO service not expecting a ticket check and then came out with the usual excuse or a pocket dance but it makes you think, one thing there was then was no discretion, no railcard then full fare ticket required.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But the lack of ticket checks are a big part of the problem. If people knew there was a 90% chance of having their ticket checked they'd be less tempted to risk buying a railcard-discounted ticket without holding the railcard. But in many areas there simply aren't many ticket checks, everything is done by automatic gate, or often nothing at all. My train to London doesn't have ticket checks or automatic gates at the starting station, the ending station or on board.

The TOCs are using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut because providing decent levels of on-board and station staffing isn't cost effective. It's much better to rinse the innocent for £250, safe in the knowledge that if the innocent complain or refuse then RoRA and the Byelaws will defend the TOC every single time.

If I go to the gym I don't get in without my membership card.

Really?

At my gym, and at every gym I've been a member of, the reception staff will look you up on the computer if you forget your card. They call it "customer service".

You need a better gym, mate.

 

[Tibbs]

Current ticket vending machines and ticket office machines do not have the facility to print names on single or return tickets.

If they can do it on reservation coupons, why can't they do it on tickets?

Bring on electronic ticketing - everything on one card then!

 

[MikeWh]

If they can do it on reservation coupons, why can't they do it on tickets?

Bring on electronic ticketing - everything on one card then!

How would you enter the name when purchasing a single or return at a TVM? You'd need a seperate entry screen. How much longer would it take to sell each ticket if everyone had to fight with the touch screen to put in their names? Bear in mind I've very rarely managed to enter the 8-character TOD reference in just 8 screen presses. It's almost always a combination of not pressing hard enough and having to repeat, then you press too hard/long and you get a duplicate.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Bring on electronic ticketing - everything on one card then!

Is that under development? An enhanced ticket containing all the relevant data for the journey or journies. That would be an obvious place to store the Railcard detail assuming this was inspected at point of sale

 

[SickyNicky]

Current ticket vending machines and ticket office machines do not have the facility to print names on single or return tickets.

Do you mean when purchashing a ticket directly, rather than collecting one? For ticket collection the CTR database accepts title, forename and surname and will print it out at the bottom of the ticket if using an enabled machine.

Of course, this is only the details of the person purchasing the ticket, so if you purchase a ticket for someone else, it's no good for identification purposes. And it doesn't solve the problem highlighted by MikeWH.

 

[Class377]

Are people really so innocent for forgetting their railcard though?

If someone forgot their actual ticket and boarded the train, the advice on here would be to accept a settlement and not protest as they'd committed a byelaw offence.

By forgetting a railcard - a similarly stupid mistake - they should get the same advice.

It's seriously not hard to remember your railcard. It's exactly the same size as a credit card and fits in the same wallets (even if you get a 2 part one, although I keep mine in the NR wallet it was issued in, but likewise the two parts could fit into one wallet slot). How many people forget their credit cards on trips?

If push comes to shove and you get to the station and realise you don't have your railcard, it's very simple as well. Admit that at that point you have no entitlement to the discount, and pay the extra few quid for a full fare ticket this once and put it up to experience. If the ticket is an advance or very expensive, buy a new railcard.

Fare dodgers would not do this, and genuine mistakes would only cost a few quid (and people would use their initiative). Why bother spending thousands when the passenger can sort it themselves?

 

[cf111]

As a personal opinion, I think it would be fair that if you forgot your railcard you are asked to pay the appropriate fare on board but for provision made in the railcard Ts and Cs that if you send evidence (a scan of the railcard and tickets or the like) to the TOC within 10 days or something, that you have the price of the ticket you had to buy on board refunded.

I know it adds another level of administration, but I think it provides a level of fareness in that if you make a genuine mistake then it can be rectified, the position of the Guard is clear and if you are a chancer, then the TOC have their money.

 

[Geronimo]

Are people really so innocent for forgetting their railcard though?

If push comes to shove and you get to the station and realise you don't have your railcard, it's very simple as well. Admit that at that point you have no entitlement to the discount, and pay the extra few quid for a full fare ticket this once and put it up to experience. If the ticket is an advance or very expensive, buy a new railcard.

That seems very reasonable.
Could the guards in the OP's case have sold a new railcard? (I suspect not)
Could the guard have issued a UPFN for a railcard? (again I suspect not)

Perhaps a system of "temporary" (i.e. valid for one day) railcards, issuable by guards could work in situations like the OP's?

 

[WelshBluebird]

If push comes to shove and you get to the station and realise you don't have your railcard, it's very simple as well. Admit that at that point you have no entitlement to the discount, and pay the extra few quid for a full fare ticket this once and put it up to experience. If the ticket is an advance or very expensive, buy a new railcard.

A few issues I see with that:

1 - On many journeys it can be very easy to not realise your error until well into the journey due to the lack of ticket barriers. If you only realise when the guard comes around to check tickets, then how is the guard supposed to tell the difference from a genuine case to somehow who has bought a cheaper ticket without actually having a railcard?

2 - As has been alluded to several times on here, different ToC's and different members of staff treat the situation differently even if you did what you suggest. Some will allow you to pay the difference while some will charge you for a full new ticket.

3 - I have been at stations quite a few times where the "buy a new railcard" option simply is not possible. To start with, you need a passport photo. And then you have the fact that quite often at busy periods those wanting to purchase railcards are told to come back when it is quieter.

 

[Class377]

A few issues I see with that:

1 - On many journeys it can be very easy to not realise your error until well into the journey due to the lack of ticket barriers. If you only realise when the guard comes around to check tickets, then how is the guard supposed to tell the difference from a genuine case to somehow who has bought a cheaper ticket without actually having a railcard?

2 - As has been alluded to several times on here, different ToC's and different members of staff treat the situation differently even if you did what you suggest. Some will allow you to pay the difference while some will charge you for a full new ticket.

3 - I have been at stations quite a few times where the "buy a new railcard" option simply is not possible. To start with, you need a passport photo. And then you have the fact that quite often at busy periods those wanting to purchase railcards are told to come back when it is quieter.

To be fair with point 1, I think a few people have mis-interpreted what I said. My main point was that if you didn't have your railcard with you, it would be your own fault for buying a ticket from a machine or an office that requires a railcard for travel. If you don't have the railcard, don't buy the ticket.

 

[meridian2]

Just answering the question if I may, I think it depends on the attitude of the customer who has bought the ticket. If the person is trying to use a discount for a non-existent railcard that they know they don't have, and they then go on and try and 'swerve' any admittance of responsibility. then, quite rightly, they should be prosecuted for fare evasion. If they made an honest mistake, admit to the mistake and candidly explain their reasons for doing so, then they should still be punished but nothing more than a reprimand.
It's too easy to generalise here. Not everybody who forgets their railcard is trying to fare evade. Fare evasion is a pre-meditative, conscientious decision made prior to the journey to deliberately avoid paying the correct fare. Accidental or misunderstanding of the stipulations of the railcard, and the recognition of that oversight/mistake, should be recognised appropriately by the rail company in question.

 

[Harpers Tate]

"customer service"

This is something that some TOCs and some employees struggle to cope with. And, no, I'm not claiming that every transgressor is innocent; not at all. But it is the treatment of those who ARE (or at least, against whom there is no evidence of anything beyond simple, genuine human error) that is lacking.

 

[swt_passenger]

As a personal opinion, I think it would be fair that if you forgot your railcard you are asked to pay the appropriate fare on board but for provision made in the railcard Ts and Cs that if you send evidence (a scan of the railcard and tickets or the like) to the TOC within 10 days or something, that you have the price of the ticket you had to buy on board refunded.

...and for those railcards that don't have a photo, how does that prevent it being used by someone else at the same time?

 

[WelshBluebird]

...and for those railcards that don't have a photo, how does that prevent it being used by someone else at the same time?

Change it so all railcards do have a photo.

 

[strawberry]

Not everyone travelling with a railcard discounted ticket will have purchased a railcard in the first place (or the railcard held is out of date) in which case the passenger was travelling with an invalid ticket with a discount they were not entitled to.

 

[plymothian]

When Pay at Pump card machines are able to read loyalty cards, then surely a bit of programming can make TVMs read an electronic railcard before tickets are printed/purchased?

That still leaves TP websites, which can be modified to accept the RC serial number before purchase.