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Forgotten Railcard

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JADSTERSDAD

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Incensed and appreciate informed and considered advice. I have a valid Senior Railcard and, once only (so far) forgot my usual wallet containing it. I bought a single ticket Bristol Temple Meads to Yatton from a machine at the station using the discount. Only when asked for the Railcard on the train did I realise my mistake and apologise. I was distinctly told that I would get an email asking for a scan of the card to be returned and not to worry. At no point was fine or prosecution mentioned. I happened to have my driving licence on me and produced it, imagining this would eventually prove (when checked on the database) that I had a valid card and who I was. Today I got a letter wrongly stating the journey was from Yatton to Bristol and that I was traveling without a valid ticket. I'm willing to fight this tooth and nail, including going to court. If others have experienced this situation and been beaten by the Draconian, bureaucratic rules then it might not be worth it. Even so, I consider I did not buy a ticket using a discount I was not entitled to. I produced the ticket (it was taken and a receipt given). My only 'crime' was not physically having the Railcard on me, but this was not stated on the fine letter. Thanks.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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Incensed and appreciate informed and considered advice. I have a valid Senior Railcard and, once only (so far) forgot my usual wallet containing it. I bought a single ticket Bristol Temple Meads to Yatton from a machine at the station using the discount. Only when asked for the Railcard on the train did I realise my mistake and apologise. I was distinctly told that I would get an email asking for a scan of the card to be returned and not to worry. At no point was fine or prosecution mentioned. I happened to have my driving licence on me and produced it, imagining this would eventually prove (when checked on the database) that I had a valid card and who I was. Today I got a letter wrongly stating the journey was from Yatton to Bristol and that I was traveling without a valid ticket. I'm willing to fight this tooth and nail, including going to court. If others have experienced this situation and been beaten by the Draconian, bureaucratic rules then it might not be worth it. Even so, I consider I did not buy a ticket using a discount I was not entitled to. I produced the ticket (it was taken and a receipt given). My only 'crime' was not physically having the Railcard on me, but this was not stated on the fine letter. Thanks.
What exactly does the letter say? Does it mention prosecution under any specific wording or law, or does it just ask for your comments/version of events?

Did you pay for a new undiscounted ticket when you were inspected, or were you issued with a Penalty Fare, or did you merely have your details taken?

Unfortunately, if the matter was not regularised there and then through the purchase of a new ticket (or the issuance of a Penalty Fare), there would be no defence to a prosection under Byelaw 18(1) of the Railway Byelaws 2005, which creates a strict liability offence of boarding a train without a valid ticket.

As you have a valid Railcard, prosecution under the more serious Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA) would not be successful, as you would clearly not have intent to avoid payment of the fare (a prerequisite to conviction under said Section).

Much though I can appreciate that forgetting the Railcard is itself frustrating, and it is even more frustrating to then suffer financial or other penalties for forgetting it, it is important to keep a cool head and to think carefully about the best way forward. Trying to defend a prosecution under Byelaw 18(1) on the basis that you had a Railcard but could not produce it will not be effective: that is not a defence because, as previously mentioned, it is a strict liability offence (similar to speeding - intent doesn't matter).

One saving grace is that a conviction under Byelaw 18(1) would not be a recordable conviction (unlike Section 5(3)(a) of RoRA), and it would be immediately 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Therefore it would not generate a criminal record on the Police National Computer, and it would not need to be declared for the likes of insurance policies, job applications etc. - not for anything except high-level security clearance and the like.

The only question, really, is whether you would prefer to settle the matter out of Court for an administrative payment (usually the train company's costs of investigation plus any fare outstanding), or whether you would prefer to be prosecuted and taken to Court.

It is not always possible to settle matters such as this out of Court, and there is no right to such a settlement, but where it is a first time offence consisting merely of an accidental mistake rather than intentional fare evasion, it is often possible to negotiate a settlement with the likes of GWR.

I hope that helps, and as said, if you could provide more details on the contents of the letter (perhaps a redacted photograph of it), that would help us to give further advice. It's obviously not a pleasant situation, but it is certainly not the end of the world.
 

najaB

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Incensed and appreciate informed and considered advice.
While I understand that you might be upset, you need to approach this with a rational mind.
Today I got a letter wrongly stating the journey was from Yatton to Bristol and that I was traveling without a valid ticket. I'm willing to fight this tooth and nail, including going to court.
Please don't. You'll more than likely lose. A Railcard-discounted ticket is only valid if the Railcard is presented at the same time. The fact that the letter names the wrong stations doesn't change the key fact - you didn't have your Railcard.

You should have been offered the chance to pay for a new ticket at the time, were you?
 

Puffing Devil

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Let's all calm down and step back a bit. There is no need to get legal at this stage.

If this is the first time you have forgotten a railcard you can get a refund of your additional ticket. See here: https://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/507/

I'm thinking that the admin has gone awry in your case. Write a calm letter to the Train Company to explain what happened, include copies of your tickets and any new ticket purchased. Send it recorded and allow some time for it to be processed.

Post back on here with a result, or if you would like your letter proofed.

(Looks like @najaB just beat me to it)
 

JADSTERSDAD

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Thank you all for the thought and work put into the replies. Much appreciated. I have not been able to log on until now and, unfortunately, being more 'passionate' than rational, I have already e-mailed the prosecution dept. of GWR. I explained fully my situation and asked (as nicely as I could) for the request for payment to be put aside. I do realise this may not be successful. Some more details below, to answer your queries:

The letter to me was a Pre-Court Settlement Offer asking for £88.70 within 21 days. It states that I travelled/attempted to travel from Yatton to Bristol without a valid ticket and that not paying the fare is illegal under S5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889) and/or Byelow 18(1) of the Railway Byelaws. "We are now considering whether or not to take you to court".

I happened to have a copy of the receipt for the ticket (to do with work expenses) which I attached, along with a scan of my Railcard.

As for the 'event' itself, on the return journey......

I showed my ticket, discovered I did not have my Railcard, explained my lapse. The Train Manager (Inspector?) was very polite. I offered my Driving License, which I happened to have, to prove my ID and said I imagined they could check the validity of my Railcard.

At this point I asked directly what would happen. She did NOT offer me the chance to buy another ticket. She took my ticket and gave me a receipt for it, saying I wouldn't need one to get out of the station at Yatton. She said I would receive an e mail asking for a scan of my Railcard to be returned (which didn't come). She checked that I knew I had it at home. I confirmed. At NO point did she mention any possible legal action or fines and actually said something like "it'll be fine. I can see it was a natural mistake" or something. It was all very cordial.

I was not issued with a penalty fare.

It is the first and only time I've forgotten my card.

Hope that helps (but sounds like it all might not help me!)
 

najaB

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At NO point did she mention any possible legal action or fines and actually said something like "it'll be fine. I can see it was a natural mistake" or something. It was all very cordial.
That pretty much sums up what should have been the outcome. Prosecution in this kind of case is rare - is there a chance you've missed previous correspondence?
She did NOT offer me the chance to buy another ticket.
That's the other way this could have been handled - a full price ticket is sold and then refunded on presentation of the valid Railcard.
I was not issued with a penalty fare.
I wouldn't have expected one to have been issued.
The letter to me was a Pre-Court Settlement Offer asking for £88.70 within 21 days
Fare plus costs, pretty much par for the course.
 

JADSTERSDAD

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Thanks. No, there's pretty much no chance I missed any previous correspondence. Will post when/IF I get any response from GWR! Maybe as it's the season of goodwill.......
 

gray1404

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I thought you were allowed to forget your railcard once and correct the matter by sending in a copy of the railcard. If the TOC choose not to ask the OP to buy a new undiscounted ticket at the time then it is their fault and now, after the event, should be accepting a copy of the railcard as an end to the matter.
 

najaB

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I thought you were allowed to forget your railcard once and correct the matter by sending in a copy of the railcard.
Normally, yes. The usual way to handle this type of issue is to sell a non-discounted ticket and refund it on presentation of the Railcard. That's why I find it odd that a first-time incident has made it directly to potential prosecution.
 

plymothian

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GWR's preference is to issue a UFN as that is easier to cancel, provided the passenger contacts the company with proof of ownership of a railcard within 21 days. It is therefore speculation that the OP misheard their need to email for they would be emailed, and so there is an unpaid fare that is being chased.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I thought you were allowed to forget your railcard once and correct the matter by sending in a copy of the railcard. If the TOC choose not to ask the OP to buy a new undiscounted ticket at the time then it is their fault and now, after the event, should be accepting a copy of the railcard as an end to the matter.

Normally, yes. The usual way to handle this type of issue is to sell a non-discounted ticket and refund it on presentation of the Railcard. That's why I find it odd that a first-time incident has made it directly to potential prosecution.

Whilst it's the usual resolution, the NRCoT are clear that the sale of a new ticket which is to be refunded is a discretionary measure and not one that the passenger has a right to (unlike for example a change of route excess). As such, this is one area where prosecution is still possible where the matter is not regularised at the time.
 

JADSTERSDAD

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I thought you were allowed to forget your railcard once and correct the matter by sending in a copy of the railcard. If the TOC choose not to ask the OP to buy a new undiscounted ticket at the time then it is their fault and now, after the event, should be accepting a copy of the railcard as an end to the matter.

Indeed, I'm happy to say that GWR did respond by e mail last night and closed the case! As you say they accepted this as a first time offence with a warning not to forget the card again.

Many thanks once again for all the comments and I wish you all a Happy and Travel-disruption free Christmas! :)
Andy
 

najaB

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Indeed, I'm happy to say that GWR did respond by e mail last night and closed the case! As you say they accepted this as a first time offence with a warning not to forget the card again.
Glad to hear that, thanks for letting us know.
 

jumble

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What exactly does the letter say? Does it mention prosecution under any specific wording or law, or does it just ask for your comments/version of events?

Did you pay for a new undiscounted ticket when you were inspected, or were you issued with a Penalty Fare, or did you merely have your details taken?

Unfortunately, if the matter was not regularised there and then through the purchase of a new ticket (or the issuance of a Penalty Fare), there would be no defence to a prosection under Byelaw 18(1) of the Railway Byelaws 2005, which creates a strict liability offence of boarding a train without a valid ticket.

As you have a valid Railcard, prosecution under the more serious Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA) would not be successful, as you would clearly not have intent to avoid payment of the fare (a prerequisite to conviction under said Section).

Much though I can appreciate that forgetting the Railcard is itself frustrating, and it is even more frustrating to then suffer financial or other penalties for forgetting it, it is important to keep a cool head and to think carefully about the best way forward. Trying to defend a prosecution under Byelaw 18(1) on the basis that you had a Railcard but could not produce it will not be effective: that is not a defence because, as previously mentioned, it is a strict liability offence (similar to speeding - intent doesn't matter).

One saving grace is that a conviction under Byelaw 18(1) would not be a recordable conviction (unlike Section 5(3)(a) of RoRA), and it would be immediately 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. Therefore it would not generate a criminal record on the Police National Computer, and it would not need to be declared for the likes of insurance policies, job applications etc. - not for anything except high-level security clearance and the like.

The only question, really, is whether you would prefer to settle the matter out of Court for an administrative payment (usually the train company's costs of investigation plus any fare outstanding), or whether you would prefer to be prosecuted and taken to Court.

It is not always possible to settle matters such as this out of Court, and there is no right to such a settlement, but where it is a first time offence consisting merely of an accidental mistake rather than intentional fare evasion, it is often possible to negotiate a settlement with the likes of GWR.

I hope that helps, and as said, if you could provide more details on the contents of the letter (perhaps a redacted photograph of it), that would help us to give further advice. It's obviously not a pleasant situation, but it is certainly not the end of the world.
Whilst it's the usual resolution, the NRCoT are clear that the sale of a new ticket which is to be refunded is a discretionary measure and not one that the passenger has a right to (unlike for example a change of route excess). As such, this is one area where prosecution is still possible where the matter is not regularised at the time.


It must be a nice christmas present to have this closed
However I wonder in future if there any sort of arguement that the conditions of the railcard state clearly
"If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare"
Thereby granting one implied permission to board the train without a railcard which would overrule the byelaw provided one paid up when asked or acceped the UFN.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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It must be a nice christmas present to have this closed
However I wonder in future if there any sort of arguement that the conditions of the railcard state clearly
"If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare"
Thereby granting one implied permission to board the train without a railcard which would overrule the byelaw provided one paid up when asked or acceped the UFN.
That's a novel viewpoint. Unfortunately it seems to contradict what the NRCoT say, and neither the NRCoT not the Railcard terms address which prevails if there is a disagreement. There could be an argument to say that Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 intervenes and dictates that the more favourable terms apply, but it's not as clear cut as some other cases. I would still treat the situation with caution: it is always possible a Magistrate would not properly understand the defence being made if a Byelaw prosecution nevertheless was made, and that they simply found you guilty. You'd then need to appeal to the Crown Court... All possible, but a hassle and a considerable expense.
 

najaB

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"If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare"
Thereby granting one implied permission to board the train without a railcard...
I'm sorry, but I don't follow that logic and I dare say a court wouldn't either.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sorry, but I don't follow that logic and I dare say a court wouldn't either.

I don't think it implies permission - it's more if you are caught having not realised to that point.

I do however think that that line in an official publication could, if presented to a Court, make a prosecution very difficult.
 

najaB

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I do however think that that line in an official publication could, if presented to a Court, make a prosecution very difficult.
Not if the invitation to regularise the situation by paying for a full price ticket is refused though.
 

jumble

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I'm sorry, but I don't follow that logic and I dare say a court wouldn't either.

If seems that what the Railcard conditions say is by definition a huge porkie and in my view grossly unfair to the customers.
I agree with Bletcheyite that we hope that any half sensible court would chuck out any prosecution as a mighty abuse of process and the Daily Mail might be interested if they don't.
If a prosecution was forced asking the prosecutor to justify to the court why he/she is proceding when the website is so definate might be interesting.

Summoning the managing director of the company as a witness to answer to the magistrate why his company give preference to the NRCoT over the website FAQs might also be interesting.
Did I buy a rail card and the FAQs said
"If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare" Yes or No
Why are you prosecuting me then?


To be clear as always no one can be sure of what a magistrate might actually do so I am not advising anything and personally would not go to court unless forced to do so..
 

najaB

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Summoning the managing director of the company as a witness to answer to the magistrate why his company give preference to the NRCoT over the website FAQs might also be interesting..
As I see it, if you don't have your Railcard then the relevant T&C's to be applied during travel must be the NRCoT, rather than the FAQ page for a product you aren't actually using.
Did I buy a rail card and the FAQs said
"If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare" Yes or No
Why are you prosecuting me then?
Note that the actual T&C's don't state that you will be charged an undiscounted fare, only that you can be:
2.9. If you fail to comply with condition 2.7, the Train Company reserves the right to charge you the full price for a standard single fare for your journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases you may also be issued with a Penalty Fare.
 
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najaB

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Unfortunately it seems to contradict what the NRCoT say, and neither the NRCoT not the Railcard terms address which prevails if there is a disagreement.
I don't think that is true. From the Senior Railcard T&C's:
1.2. In addition to the Railcard Conditions, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (“NRCoT”) apply to any journey on the rail network. Where the NRCoT conflict with these Railcard Conditions, the NRCoT override the Railcard Conditions. Copies of the NRCoT are available online at nationalrail.co.uk/nrcot or at staffed National Rail stations.
 
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Let's all calm down and step back a bit. There is no need to get legal at this stage.

If this is the first time you have forgotten a railcard you can get a refund of your additional ticket. See here: https://www.senior-railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/507/

I'm thinking that the admin has gone awry in your case. Write a calm letter to the Train Company to explain what happened, include copies of your tickets and any new ticket purchased. Send it recorded and allow some time for it to be processed.

Post back on here with a result, or if you would like your letter proofed.

(Looks like @najaB just beat me to it)
You cannot get a refund ,the Terms and conditions of the railcard states that the Railcard must be shown with the discounted ticket,one is not valid without the other.The cardholder signs to abide by this rule when the railcard is issued!!
 
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30907

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You cannot get a refund ,the Terms and conditions of the railcard states that the Railcard must be shown with the discounted ticket,one is not valid without the other.The passengers signs to abide by this rule when the railcard is issued!!

With respect, the refund rule linked by Puffing Devil has existed for some time.
It is not specifically mentioned in the T&Cs, only in the FAQs, but would be covered by 2.9.
Do you have an authoritative source for your claim?

PS Welcome to the forum, sorry to have to reply sharply.
 
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With respect, the refund rule linked by Puffing Devil has existed for some time.
It is not specifically mentioned in the T&Cs, only in the FAQs, but would be covered by 2.9.
Do you have an authoritative source for your claim?

PS Welcome to the forum, sorry to have to reply sharply.
Hi thanks .I was an ATE and Ticket Inspector for about 35 years on the Midland Mainline,But now retired so been away for a few years..Its the terms and condition of railcard being issued which the rail card holder signs to abide by! I think the person cannot be prosecuted for this actually incident (of forgetting their railcard) ,it would be very difficult to prove the person had intention to avoid payment.It would be thrown out of court .As long as the ticket holder can prove they have valid railcard at a later date there cannot be any grounds for prosecution unless intention to defraud is proved.For example the ticket holder lied to an Inspector when being questioned under caution or later tried to produce a rail card that belonged to someone else etc etc .That sort of thing.It would be extremely difficult to prove intent to defraud if someone genuinely believed they had a railcard but had left it at home.But a refund because of this would be extremely unlikely!But there nothing to lose by trying.It used to be the case that there was refund charge deducted so it wouldnt be worth it for a small amount ticket.
 
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Darandio

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Like being an ATE and Ticket Inspector,Conductor/ Guard for about 35 years.Its the terms and condition of railcard being issued which the rail card holders signs to abide by!

So the rule they introduced to allow the first one to be claimed back each year is wrong, and you are right?
 
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So the rule they introduced to allow the first one to be claimed back each year is wrong, and you are right?
Hmm it isnt MY rule you have seen! Contact the people who issued it!Maybe they will give you an answer? The refund does NOT appear in appear in the railcards Terms and Conditions! Why does it appear in FAQs?I don`t know you should contact the people who wrote it!
 
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najaB

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But a refund because of this would be extremely unlikely!
Sorry, but this is incorrect. It is now standard procedure to issue one such refund per calendar year, provided the passenger presents their Railcard within a set timeframe.
 
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