Four Children Killed Level Crossing Netherlands

[AlexNL]

Stintum, the manufacturer of the Stint vehicle, has filed for bankruptcy. According to their MD it's simply no longer possible to keep the business running.

 

[Groningen]

There was an interview with the founder/chairman of the Stint builder and he had to say that for what reason i do not know they had a party after the accident.

 

[swj99]

Hopefully the link below is to a google translated version of the page regarding the bankruptcy. Mods feel free to amend if link doesn't work etc....

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/artikel/4466256/fabrikant-stint-vraagt-faillissement-aan-ik-zie-geen-uitweg-meer&edit-text=&act=url

 

[Bungle965]

There was an interview with the founder/chairman of the Stint builder and he had to say that for what reason i do not know they had a party after the accident.

If that is true then that is highly insensitive and irresponsible thing to do.
I'm not sure in what world anyone would think that that would be a good thing to do after such a tragic accident.
Sam

 

[eastdyke]

Bankruptcy was likely from the getgo when the Company refused to recall all Stints following the preliminary findings of the accident investigators. This led to the ban.
The Stint is made in China. When first approved by Netherlands Authorities as a 'special moped' the Stint had a DC motor.
Since first approval the design was modified to include a more powerful AC motor but no further reference was made to the Authorities.

 

[AlexNL]

If that is true then that is highly insensitive and irresponsible thing to do.
I'm not sure in what world anyone would think that that would be a good thing to do after such a tragic accident.
Sam

I'm assuming it's a mistranslation or misunderstood. The founder of Stintum was as devastated as everyone else.

Bankruptcy was likely from the getgo when the Company refused to recall all Stints following the preliminary findings of the accident investigators. This led to the ban.

The Stintum company refused to issue a recall as the reason for the accident was (and still is) very much unclear, they felt like the government were looking for a scapegoat and did not want to cooperate with that.

The preliminary findings which were released by the Dutch government a couple of weeks ago were redacted and incomplete.

The Stint is made in China. When first approved by Netherlands Authorities as a 'special moped' the Stint had a DC motor.
Since first approval the design was modified to include a more powerful AC motor but no further reference was made to the Authorities.

It wasn't a requirement to do so.

RTL Nieuws, a Dutch news outlet, are investigating the drama. The Dutch government isn't getting off easily: their inspectorate didn't even know they had to look after the vehicles, and civil servants try to cover their asses.

A toxic cocktail: four dead children, panic and House of Cards

 

[Groningen]

On Thursday from 18.00 to 21.00 there will be a discussion about the Stint with the department of Infrastructure and Waterways in the lower chamber of the parlement in Den Haag.

Source: https://www.tweedekamer.nl/debat_en...=Vergaderingen&fld_prl_soort=Algemeen+overleg

 

[Bungle965]

I'm assuming it's a mistranslation or misunderstood. The founder of Stintum was as devastated as everyone else.

Yes, it does seems strange. I remember reading the statement on their website from the founder after the incident.
Sam

 

[eastdyke]

RTL Nieuws, a Dutch news outlet, are investigating the drama. The Dutch government isn't getting off easily: their inspectorate didn't even know they had to look after the vehicles, and civil servants try to cover their asses.

Regardless of any historic or recent failings in either technical understanding or regulatory regime, children died.
There is a need to fully understand why the accident happended, with no general recall (refused), a full investigation is inevitable.
Who does that investigation or how long it takes is not an overiding factor.

I understand that politics are in play, to ignore the recent accident is surely not an option.

 

[AlexNL]

I agree with you that a full investigation has to take place.

However, imposing an outright ban after 1 accident without knowing what caused it, feels premature to me. Not only have the actions of the Dutch state caused a company to go bankrupt (before any blame was established) they've also caused massive problems for many child daycare centres that now have had to resort to alternate measures of transporting children.

A total recall would have only made sense if the cause of the accident is known. That way, the vehicles could be fixed or maybe refunded. Without knowing what has happened, issuing a recall is pointless and only serves to shift the focus away from the role of the authorities and onto the vehicle and its manufacturer.

 

[eastdyke]

I agree with you that a full investigation has to take place.

However, imposing an outright ban after 1 accident without knowing what caused it, feels premature to me. Not only have the actions of the Dutch state caused a company to go bankrupt (before any blame was established) they've also caused massive problems for many child daycare centres that now have had to resort to alternate measures of transporting children.

A total recall would have only made sense if the cause of the accident is known. That way, the vehicles could be fixed or maybe refunded. Without knowing what has happened, issuing a recall is pointless and only serves to shift the focus away from the role of the authorities and onto the vehicle and its manufacturer.

The manufacturer presumably has a safety inspection and maintenance regime for these vehicles?

 

[AlexNL]

The manufacturer presumably has a safety inspection and maintenance regime for these vehicles?

I would assume so. And if all criteria are met and there is no reason to assume that the vehicle itself may be at fault, then there is no reason to issue a total recall.

What happened in Oss is a tragedy, and a thorough investigation to learn and to prevent reoccurrence is necessary. But at this point in time, it is still completely unknown what exactly has happened.

 

[eastdyke]

I would assume so. And if all criteria are met and there is no reason to assume that the vehicle itself may be at fault, then there is no reason to issue a total recall.
What happened in Oss is a tragedy, and a thorough investigation to learn and to prevent reoccurrence is necessary. But at this point in time, it is still completely unknown what exactly has happened.

I asked because the Stintum website makes no mention of either periodic inspection or maintenance.
In the event of something wrong there is an email proforma (back to Stintum) for assistance.

If there are no manufacturers recommendations there would also be no facility to handle a recall.
And such vehicles could not be expected to work safely forever without inspection.
Accident waiting to happen.

 

[eastdyke]

An alternative article:
https://nltimes.nl/2018/10/19/multiple-reports-runaway-stints-fatal-rail-accident

In particular note:

According to the documents, the childcare institution from Midden-Nederland has seven Stints, two of which have "regular breaking and stopping problems". The problems persisted even after inspections and repairs and the two Stints were eventually taken out of service and a replacement was sent. But the replacement also had issues. "Then on September 27th it was established that a replacement Stint did not slow down when the gas was released", the inspector wrote. That is a week after the fatal accident in Oss.

A noteworthy point in the documents, is that the childcare institution wants to withdraw its declaration because the reporter has the impression that her report will lead to Stints being taken off the road, according to the newspaper. The inspector thinks that she may have been contacted with the manufacturer of the Stints, Stint Urban Mobility.

Who to believe - Company or Government?

 

[AlexNL]

I asked because the Stintum website makes no mention of either periodic inspection or maintenance.
In the event of something wrong there is an email proforma (back to Stintum) for assistance.

If there are no manufacturers recommendations there would also be no facility to handle a recall.
And such vehicles could not be expected to work safely forever without inspection.
Accident waiting to happen.

I can't find much information on the Stintum website apart from information about the various models, and a contact form. Maybe they simply haven't made that documentation public, and they hand out paper leaflets instead.

An alternative article:
https://nltimes.nl/2018/10/19/multiple-reports-runaway-stints-fatal-rail-accident

In particular note:

Who to believe - Company or Government?

The childcare institution says that they reported a malfunction which they had earlier in the year after hearing about the accident in Oss, which was then blown out of proportion and served as evidence about how bad the Stint vehicles are. The childcare institution have repeatedly indicated that they want to withdraw their statement, but they're being ignored.

As we say in Dutch: dit zaakje stinkt (this stinks).

 

[eastdyke]

As we say in Dutch: dit zaakje stinkt (this stinks).

To the extent that perhaps they should never have been allowed in the first place - I agree with you.
I am not sure that they would ever even be considered for use on public roads in the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To the extent that perhaps they should never have been allowed in the first place - I agree with you.
I am not sure that they would ever even be considered for use on public roads in the UK.

They aren't used on the road, they're used on cycle paths, no?

 

[eastdyke]

They aren't used on the road, they're used on cycle paths, no?

Not quite:
https://stintum.com/en/documentatie/de-zogenaamde-aangewezen-bromfiets/

'you must always drive on the bicycle path, if there is one'

and much to the annoyance of (some) other users.

 

[AlexNL]

To the extent that perhaps they should never have been allowed in the first place - I agree with you.
I am not sure that they would ever even be considered for use on public roads in the UK.

When the model was presented to the authorities, they didn't know how it should be classified. After the minister herself intervened, they settled for "special moped". The minister didn't want innovation to be stifled by outdated regulations. Something similar happened in Belgium.

Stintum have tried to sell their vehicle to German customers, but they could not get a derogation and were met with much more stringent requirements.

I don't know how it would be in the UK. Does Mr. Grayling possess the powers to singlehandedly authorise a new vehicle type for service? Or can such a decision only be made by the ORR?

 

[eastdyke]

When the model was presented to the authorities, they didn't know how it should be classified. After the minister herself intervened, they settled for "special moped". The minister didn't want innovation to be stifled by outdated regulations. Something similar happened in Belgium.

Stintum have tried to sell their vehicle to German customers, but they could not get a derogation and were met with much more stringent requirements.

I don't know how it would be in the UK. Does Mr. Grayling possess the powers to singlehandedly authorise a new vehicle type for service? Or can such a decision only be made by the ORR?

I am sure that Mr. Grayling would be way out of his comfort zone on this
Things relevant to consideration might include:
Continuous power rating of the motor not to exceed 250 watts.
The lack of pedals.
The fact that it is clearly not 'personal transport'.
Top speed not to exceed 4mph (footway/cycleway) or 8 mph (road).

I somehow cannot see a Stint being classed other than as a motor vehicle in the UK, with all the attendant registration, tax, insurance and inspection obligations.
I accept that the network of cycleways in The Netherlands presents a somewhat different backdrop to what we have here in the UK where cycleways frequently merge back with the roads at the more dangerous 'pinch points'

 

[Groningen]

In a court ruling the Stint is still forbidden. All those children have to walk or use of expensive cars. The driver does not Always have a drivers license. They first wait on a expert rapport (is that an english word?) to be able what the future of the Stint will be. Remember how we (before the Stint came into service) went to school?

 

[eastdyke]

In a court ruling the Stint is still forbidden. All those children have to walk or use of expensive cars. The driver does not Always have a drivers license. They first wait on a expert rapport (is that an english word?) to be able what the future of the Stint will be. Remember how we (before the Stint came into service) went to school?

expert report?
An online report of the court ruling here:
http://www.tellerreport.com/news/--court-keeps-ban-on-use-stint-in-state-.HklI2gduhQ.html

According to the minister, doubts have arisen about the safety of the stint and this must first be sorted out before the electric wagon can get on the road again.

An owner of a childcare center in Almere had asked the court in interlocutory proceedings to lift the ban. The woman is very dependent on the use of the vehicle, because she has to take children to school.

The lawyer of the woman, Werner van Bentem, argued that there was no need to temporarily ban the stint. According to him, the measure was too far-reaching and based on inadequate research.

The court ruled that road safety concerns the interests of the childcare owner. According to the judge, there were enough indications to justify an investigation into the stint and thus a suspension of the use of the stint on the road.

There is no appeal against the ruling.

 

[Groningen]

Of course report. I did not use Google Translate.

 

[AlexNL]

Meanwhile the Technical Universities of Eindhoven and Twente have had a look at the vehicle, and have made recommendations on how to improve the vehicle's safety by introducing better brakes, an emergency stop button, and a weight sensor which automatically brings the vehicle to a stand when the driver steps off. They anticipate that the adjustments can be made in two to three weeks, so that the Stint can return to the streets safely and in a short timeframe.

It looks like the minister isn't interested in this, she wants to await a thorough technical investigation by TNO before making any decisions on whether or not the Stint is considered street worthy.

Stintum has filed for bankruptcy at the beginning of the week, there was little hope that today's court hearing could overturn that decision but it now seems to be final.

 

[Groningen]

That report should appear around the start of 2019.

 

[squizzler]

Meanwhile the Technical Universities of Eindhoven and Twente have had a look at the vehicle, and have made recommendations on how to improve the vehicle's safety by introducing better brakes, an emergency stop button, and a weight sensor which automatically brings the vehicle to a stand when the driver steps off. They anticipate that the adjustments can be made in two to three weeks, so that the Stint can return to the streets safely and in a short timeframe.

It looks like the minister isn't interested in this, she wants to await a thorough technical investigation by TNO before making any decisions on whether or not the Stint is considered street worthy.

Stintum has filed for bankruptcy at the beginning of the week, there was little hope that today's court hearing could overturn that decision but it now seems to be final.

I just read about this incident in Modern railways and, having noted a thread on a level crossing incident I had not viewed at the time, came to the thread late.

At the time of writing there has been an air crash in Jakarta involving the loss of a Boeing 737 MAX, a relatively new type. With 189 deaths, the toll was the worst ever for the 737 family of aircraft. Apparently the aircraft involved had, like the cargo truck of this thread, gone out of control on a previous flight but was saved by the flight crew. Investigations report that faulty "Angle of Attack" indicators could cause the plane to go into a sudden dive as the fly-by-wire system attempts to avoid that it perceives as a stall.

The similarity with what I am given to understand, on the cargo truck, was also a malfunction of a "fly-by-wire" type control system on the vehicle causing catastrophic loss of control. Clearly "throttle-by-wire" or "FADEC" to give the aeronautic term, can be made acceptably safe for such safety critical applications.

The Boeing 737MAX continued to operate during the investigation and continues to do so subject to a warning over Angle of Attack indicators.

From Wikipedia article

On 6 November The Wall Street Journal reported that Boeing and the US Federal Aviation Administration, on the basis of preliminary information gathered in the investigation, were planning to publish warnings, about erroneous angle of attack indications, on cockpit instrument displays of the 737 MAX in response to the Lion Air accident.[118] Report stated that, based on the preliminary findings, the aircraft could abruptly dive by mistake. If there's a malfunction in the aircraft's AOA sensors, the aircraft's computer, which is designed to prevent an aerodynamic stall, may think that the aircraft is stalling. Thus, it may cause an abrupt dive. The Federal Aviation Administration urged every airline which uses the Boeing 737 MAX 8 to heed the warnings.[119]

On 7 November, the NTSC confirmed that there had been problems with Flight 610's angle of attack (AOA) sensors. Initially, the aircraft suffered an airspeed indicatorproblem for its last four flights. The penultimate flight was the Bali to Jakarta flight. Thinking that it would fix the problem, the engineers in Bali then replaced the aircraft AOA sensors, but the problem persisted. A 20 degree difference between the AOA left sensor and right sensor was recorded. The NTSC confirmed that Flight 610 suffered the same problem with the Bali to Jakarta flight. Just minutes after takeoff, the aircraft abruptly dived. The crew of that flight, however, had managed to control the aircraft and decided to fly at a lower than normal altitude. They then managed to land the aircraft safely.[120] NTSC chief Soerjanto Tjahjono told the press that future reporting or actions, enacted to prevent similar problems on similar aircraft, would be decided by Boeing and US aviation authorities.[121]

I feel that the procedure as to whether a cargo truck or plane is grounded needs to be consistent. electric trucks such as that involved in this tragedy are nonetheless an important element in decarbonising transport and will, I am certain, improve the safety of children over the alternative of being driven to school as per UK practice. The benefit to children's health of less air pollution is greater still. Scientific evidence shows that air pollution greatly harms children's brain development.

Whatever the outcome of the investigation, the owners of these trucks who have done what they perceived to be the right thing in reducing air pollution and carbon emissions by choosing this vehicle over a traditional car should not be left out of pocket in the event they are not able to use their vehicles on highways anymore and the resale value is destroyed.

 

[Groningen]

What has the article to do with Oss?

 

[squizzler]

What has the article to do with Oss?

Perhaps you have not read my own text to go with the quoted article? I look at two recent (multiple fatality) crashes as far as I can tell both caused by "fly by wire" controls, and compare the way in which they have been addressed in two sectors.

I am sorry if you feel such comparisons inappropriate, and the tragedy affecting your countrymen if you are indeed from Groningen, but I am unable to see why these vehicles are withdrawn during the investigation stage when the equivalent aircraft is not, and indeed why it seems to take so long. Hardening the electronics against electrical interference, if that is indeed the cause, would seem easy enough, presumably involving swap a printed circuit board somewhere in the guts of the machine for a new, tested one. And in the meantime, unlike aircraft, the children can be instructed to get out and walk separately across level crossings, highways etc...

 

[eastdyke]

Perhaps you have not read my own text to go with the quoted article? I look at two recent (multiple fatality) crashes as far as I can tell both caused by "fly by wire" controls, and compare the way in which they have been addressed in two sectors.
I am sorry if you feel such comparisons inappropriate, and the tragedy affecting your countrymen if you are indeed from Groningen, but I am unable to see why these vehicles are withdrawn during the investigation stage when the equivalent aircraft is not, and indeed why it seems to take so long. Hardening the electronics against electrical interference, if that is indeed the cause, would seem easy enough, presumably involving swap a printed circuit board somewhere in the guts of the machine for a new, tested one. And in the meantime, unlike aircraft, the children can be instructed to get out and walk separately across level crossings, highways etc...

I don't think that there is any comparison at all!
There is an overriding fear that the STINT was accepted into public use without the due diligence of all the relevant Netherlands Authorities. (Hence talk of scandals).
It might be 'easy enough' to swap a PCB but that needs to be sourced having been designed and tested. The originals are Chinese made and attempts to download control data did not give the Netherlands investigators any great initial help, the data was all in Chinese (seen it, can't find the link just now). Last I heard they are awaiting translations.
Further, the Netherlands supplier Stintum did not support a recall and has filed for bankruptcy, there is nobody to take responsibility (and pay for) development, manufacture and retrofit. Not that anybody would want to do that without knowledge that the Netherlands authorities will accept any of it.
So a catch 22 but with all the balls in the Netherlands authorities court just now.

 

[AlexNL]

It's looking unlikely for the Stint to ever return to the streets, as the manufacturer has filed for bankruptcy and the vehicle's reputation has gone down the drain due to the way the accident was handled by the Dutch authorities. The ban on its use and the reputational damage suffered by the incomplete, but quickly released, investigation reports, have pretty much sealed the deal.