Frizinghall to Leeds Northern Penalty Fare

[99p]

Hi all,

New to the forum but in need of some advice re the above. So I've been a regular Northern Rail traveller (season ticket) for the last few years. My normal route of travel has been Bradford Forster square which is where I would renew my weekly season ticket. However, having moved recently, I have using the closest station to myself which is Frizinghall (a platform rather than a station). What I have been doing is either renewing my pass with a conductor on the train or doing so at Leeds station which has barriers at every entrance/exit. Now unknown to myself a new penalty fare had been introduced for anyone boarding a train without a ticket which is exactly what I got when arriving into Leeds the Sept. Of course I was furious when told this as I'm someone who has always paid for my travel and continue to do so and felt it was unfair that I was being penalised despite queuing up to pay for my weekly season ticket.

After exchanging words with this Northern enforcer, I did end up giving my details, however I provided my parents address which I no longer reside at. I then proceeded to make an appeal against the penalty but the website that was provided on the notice failed to recognise my ref no! So I left it. Fast forward a month, a letter came through today at my parents address demanding I pay an additional fee as well as the original penalty totalling £55!

Where do I go with this? Can my parents simply say that I no longer live there and that they don't know where I currently reside? Or do I get in contact to state what had happened when trying to make an appeal which I did take a pic of so have evidence?

 

[Gareth Marston]

How about paying it?

You've boarded a train in a penalty fare area without a ticket and then provided a false address.

 

[Haywain]

Thetre's always a third option - pay the £55 that is now due, accepting that you failed to appeal within the time limit and knowing that doing so will stop the matter escalating further.

 

[99p]

Thetre's always a third option - pay the £55 that is now due, accepting that you failed to appeal within the time limit and knowing that doing so will stop the matter escalating further.

Hold on a second, I tried to appeal but the website they suggested I used did not recognise my penalty reference number!

 

[Starmill]

Was there a reason why you couldn't buy a Seven Day Season a Frizinghall? Have you tried it, before or since?

 

[99p]

Was there a reason why you couldn't buy a Seven Day Season a Frizinghall? Have you tried it, before or since?

I've never used the machine to purchase a season ticket and didn't know that such a facility was available. As mentioned in my initial post, I've always purchased my ticket from the booking office. This station is just a platform with the single machine.

 

[99p]

The other point I'd like to point out is, if its an offence to board the train in question without a ticket then why have I on many occasions purchased my season ticket since moving address from a conductor offering the sale of tickets? Just seems contradictory to me!

 

[Haywain]

Hold on a second, I tried to appeal but the website they suggested I used did not recognise my penalty reference number!

There is a postal address as well as a weblink, but you chose to do nothing more.

 

[99p]

There is a postal address as well as a weblink, but you chose to do nothing more.

Mate not being funny, but why should I have to do anymore other than follow the instructions on the notice. For me doing so online was the easiest option but as said before, it didn't recognise my ref number. I have a pic to prove this! It's also worth noting that I have always purchased a weekly ticket and continue to do so. Just seems unfair to penalise travellers who actually pay for their journeys!

 

[robbeech]

Have we not had a recent issue at Frizinghall where it was apparent that the signage was unacceptable?

 

[99p]

Have we not had a recent issue at Frizinghall where it was apparent that the signage was unacceptable?

What signage?

 

[robbeech]

What signage?

I think that was pretty much the jist of the topic.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-dispute.169389/page-1

 

[Haywain]

Have we not had a recent issue at Frizinghall where it was apparent that the signage was unacceptable?

Yes, but that was on the Bradford-bound platform which doesn't have a TVM.

 

[Haywain]

Mate not being funny, but why should I have to do anymore other than follow the instructions on the notice. For me doing so online was the easiest option but as said before, it didn't recognise my ref number. I have a pic to prove this! It's also worth noting that I have always purchased a weekly ticket and continue to do so. Just seems unfair to penalise travellers who actually pay for their journeys!

Why should you do it? To save £35 for starters. But you know best, perhaps you should just ignore this and leave it until you get taken to court. But if you don't want advice why did you post here?

 

[30907]

What signage?

The signs about the Penalty Fare area that should have been there since January, including the rather prominent notice on the new style ticket machine. If there is no such sign, then you have a case for an appeal.
The issue raised recently was about the Bradford-bound platform where, arguably, there is no reasonable way to buy before boarding.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Mate not being funny, but why should I have to do anymore other than follow the instructions on the notice. For me doing so online was the easiest option but as said before, it didn't recognise my ref number. I have a pic to prove this! It's also worth noting that I have always purchased a weekly ticket and continue to do so. Just seems unfair to penalise travellers who actually pay for their journeys!

IT issues are not a get out of jail free card I'm afraid. As you've found out the issue didn't go away. You may not like it it may be fustrating but giving up addressing the issue has just seen it escalate.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This is a rather complex issue.

Northern's Penalty Fares are not enforceable, as their signage is universally non-compliant with the requirements of the enabling legislation, The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. That means the Penalty Fare is legally speaking void and null, and therefore if they were to sue you for the unpaid Penalty Fare in County Court, you would have a defence (though you would still be liable for any unpaid fare).

That being said, Northern will probably ignore the above argument if you try to contest the Penalty Fare on that basis, and they will cancel the Penalty Fare and likely proceed with a criminal prosecution in the Magistrates' Court. Such a prosecution may initially proceed on the basis of an offence committed under Railway Byelaw 18 - which purports to make it an offence to board a train without a valid ticket (unless you are unable to buy a ticket before boarding, or are given permission to board without a ticket).

I say purports, because in my view Byelaw 18 is legally void just as Northern's Penalty Fares are (though for different reasons to Northern Penalty Fares' voidness), for reasons which are discussed in depth here.

A challenge or defence on that basis would undoubtedly be stressful and risks being not even properly considered in the first instance at the Magistrates' Court, requiring you to take it to the Crown Court to get a "proper" trial. All that would be expensive - and you would not see your solicitors' fees back unless you won (and even then, it is not guaranteed).

The alternative law under which you might be prosecuted is Section 5(3)(a) or 5(3)(c) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA). The former Section would require Northern to show that you had intent to avoid payment of the correct fare; unless there are factors which your account does not include (e.g. having stated an incorrect boarding station, or trying to exit via an exit which is unmanned) that would seem somewhat difficult. The latter Section would require Northern to show that the address you gave is false; if this were to be the case, the most obvious defence would be the assertion that your parents' address is not false, as you can and do receive letters there.

So, what would I recommend?

The easiest and least stressful option is undoubtedly to pay whatever Northern and/or their agents are demanding - as distasteful as it is (and notwithstanding the procedural voidness of the Penalty Fare, not to mention the total lack of statutory footing for the bogus "administration" fees). However, this option is guaranteed to cost you money overall; money which another course of action may result in you not having to end up being out of pocket for.

The indisputably more stressful and complicated option is to refuse to pay the Penalty Fare - an appeal being impossible given your missing of the deadline (whether through your fault or Northern's). If/when Northern institute criminal proceedings, you would then mount a defence as above. If you are prosecuted under RoRA and are convicted, you would receive a criminal record which would be spent after one year (there is no such criminal record for a Byelaws conviction).

A conviction under either law would likely see a fine of 75-150% of your deemed weekly income - in other words, unless your income is very low, it would be substantially more than the Penalty Fare and administration fees currently demanded. However, if this approach succeeds, it would represent a "victory" over Northern, and, more importantly, you would probably not end up out of pocket (though that cannot be guaranteed, especially if you have paid for legal representation yourself).

What approach you go for - whether it be the easy one that's guaranteed to cost you, or the stressful one that might not, but might cost you a lot more if it doesn't succeed - is up to you.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The signs about the Penalty Fare area that should have been there since January, including the rather prominent notice on the new style ticket machine. If there is no such sign, then you have a case for an appeal.
The issue raised recently was about the Bradford-bound platform where, arguably, there is no reasonable way to buy before boarding.

None of Northern's Penalty Fare signage complies with the current Regulations, hence any Penalty Fare issued by them under their scheme is void and null (see my above post, and other posts on the subject). That does not mean that paying a Northern Penalty Fare should never to be considered - if it is offered as a disposal of what could potentially result in a much more serious prosecution (e.g. for fraud, or intent to avoid payment) then it may well be the best option, all things considered.

 

[furlong]

99p, take note that this is just an internet forum and you should expect a range of opinions and mixture of correct and incorrect information - and incorrect information won't always get drawn to your attention.

It amounts to, do you give in to what you might consider "bullying", pay up what they demand and get on with your life, or do you seek professional advice about possible ways to challenge the situation, aware that the final outcome might be better or considerably worse. Paying up doesn't stop you campaigning for any perceived wrongs to be righted, it just means you can walk away from that at any point without increasing your losses.

 

[99p]

99p, take note that this is just an internet forum and you should expect a range of opinions and mixture of correct and incorrect information - and incorrect information won't always get drawn to your attention.

It amounts to, do you give in to what you might consider "bullying", pay up what they demand and get on with your life, or do you seek professional advice about possible ways to challenge the situation, aware that the final outcome might be better or considerably worse. Paying up doesn't stop you campaigning for any perceived wrongs to be righted, it just means you can walk away from that at any point without increasing your losses.

I will be calling them tomorrow to explain how I missed the window for appealing, I will then ask what my options are and if I have to pay, I will do so with full intention of taking it further. Will also look out for these penalty notices that are meant to be visible on both platforms.

 

[londonboi198o5]

Best advice is paybthe outstanding balance to stop it going any higher in cost or even worse it being taking to court. Once you have paid the fare due then you can contact northern and explain the issues you experienced and see if they would reduce it back to the original cost although they are not obliged to do so but there is no harm in asking.

By ignoring the letter you then risk it going to court which will cost you ALOT more. Also the part where you say should you get your parents to say they don’t know where you reside is not wise.
Best soloution is just pay the money current asked and put it down to experience by ignoring it more it is just going to cost you more in the long run. This won’t go away so the sooner you pay up the better

 

[furlong]

Do you have still have evidence you purchased this same season ticket on board the train or at Leeds on recent occasions? That is not supposed to be happening unless they give you a warning every time that you could have been charged a penalty fare. Perhaps put together a list of reasons why you feel this was unfair - some already mentioned higher up the thread (signage, appeal website not working) - and see if you can persuade them to drop the matter or reduce their charges.

(Once you've paid it, you still have the possibility of arguing outside the simple appeal system that it was issued without lawful authority, if you find evidence of that, and trying to get your money back.)

 

[99p]

Do you have still have evidence you purchased this same season ticket on board the train or at Leeds on recent occasions? That is not supposed to be happening unless they give you a warning every time that you could have been charged a penalty fare.

Just the money that has left my account on a weekly basis from a statement but not the actual tickets.

 

[Llanigraham]

None of Northern's Penalty Fare signage complies with the current Regulations, hence any Penalty Fare issued by them under their scheme is void and null (see my above post, and other posts on the subject). That does not mean that paying a Northern Penalty Fare should never to be considered - if it is offered as a disposal of what could potentially result in a much more serious prosecution (e.g. for fraud, or intent to avoid payment) then it may well be the best option, all things considered.

That is only your opinion, and is not based on any legal basis.

 

[robbeech]

Some photos of signage at the station would be interesting. A recent post about this station (linked to above) shows inadequate signage about the penalty fare so I’d be interested to see if anything has been changed in the last few weeks.

Do we not also need to establish whether the TVM accepted the payment method you wished to use or was even able to sell you the ticket you required ?

 

[_toommm_]

Some photos of signage at the station would be interesting. A recent post about this station (linked to above) shows inadequate signage about the penalty fare so I’d be interested to see if anything has been changed in the last few weeks.

Do we not also need to establish whether the TVM accepted the payment method you wished to use or was even able to sell you the ticket you required ?

If it's a 7 day season it should do. As for a 28 day, I don't think Northern TVM's let you, but of course there is then the debate about does one get a promise to pay, or hope the guys at Leeds are aware of the NRCoT ruling where if a ticket is not available the pax can buy at their earliest opportunity i.e. Leeds barriers.

 

[robbeech]

I’ve yet to see any formal documentation stating that the rules about a promise to pay can be enforced but I wouldn’t go out of my way to deliberately not obtain one if it was easy enough to do.

I’m glad I’ve learnt about the 7DS/F being available from those TVM.

I suppose the ticket would not have been able to purchase if the passenger needed a photocard and was carrying a photo.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Hi all,

New to the forum but in need of some advice re the above. So I've been a regular Northern Rail traveller (season ticket) for the last few years. My normal route of travel has been Bradford Forster square which is where I would renew my weekly season ticket. However, having moved recently, I have using the closest station to myself which is Frizinghall (a platform rather than a station). What I have been doing is either renewing my pass with a conductor on the train or doing so at Leeds station which has barriers at every entrance/exit. Now unknown to myself a new penalty fare had been introduced for anyone boarding a train without a ticket which is exactly what I got when arriving into Leeds the Sept. Of course I was furious when told this as I'm someone who has always paid for my travel and continue to do so and felt it was unfair that I was being penalised despite queuing up to pay for my weekly season ticket.

After exchanging words with this Northern enforcer, I did end up giving my details, however I provided my parents address which I no longer reside at. I then proceeded to make an appeal against the penalty but the website that was provided on the notice failed to recognise my ref no! So I left it. Fast forward a month, a letter came through today at my parents address demanding I pay an additional fee as well as the original penalty totalling £55!

Where do I go with this? Can my parents simply say that I no longer live there and that they don't know where I currently reside? Or do I get in contact to state what had happened when trying to make an appeal which I did take a pic of so have evidence?

Your parents don't know where you live?

The best option for you, to avoid a prosecution, would be to pay the Penalty Fare and associated admin fees. All Penalty Fares licensed operators display warning notices at Penalty Fare stations. It is in your best interest that you pay the amount as soon as possible.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The other point I'd like to point out is, if its an offence to board the train in question without a ticket then why have I on many occasions purchased my season ticket since moving address from a conductor offering the sale of tickets? Just seems contradictory to me!

A conductor is different to a Revenue Protection Officer. A conductor can issue a UPFN (Unpaid Fares Notice) or a TIR (Ticket Irregularity Report), but are not authorised Penalty Fares Collectors (apart from HS1 South Eastern Guards).
A Revenue Protection Officer is an authorised Penalty Fares Collector and has the option to issue a Penalty Fare, as their duties focus more on ticketing, whereas Conductors/TMs have a range of duties to undertake.

 

[yorkie]

A conductor is different to a Revenue Protection Officer. A conductor can issue a UPFN (Unpaid Fares Notice) or a TIR (Ticket Irregularity Report), but are not authorised Penalty Fares Collectors (apart from HS1 South Eastern Guards)....

I agree, but HS1 doesn't have Guards; it has OBMs. See https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/about-us/careers-at-southeastern/roles ; unfortunately Northern's equivalent page doesn't mention revenue protection staff ( https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/corporate/careers/44-our-roles ) however they might all be sub-contracted out.

But yes the basic premise of what you are saying is correct that there are different roles, some of which are authorised to collect PFs and some of which are not, and it does vary by train company.