Frizinghall to Leeds Northern Penalty Fare

[Bantamzen]

None of Northern's Penalty Fare signage complies with the current Regulations, hence any Penalty Fare issued by them under their scheme is void and null (see my above post, and other posts on the subject). That does not mean that paying a Northern Penalty Fare should never to be considered - if it is offered as a disposal of what could potentially result in a much more serious prosecution (e.g. for fraud, or intent to avoid payment) then it may well be the best option, all things considered.

Other than reference to the positioning of such signs, which I recall are required at the entrances, is there any specific regulation as to the design, wording etc that makes you consider them inadequate? This may have been asked before, and if so please accept my apologies but I think its important to make such points clear.

Some photos of signage at the station would be interesting. A recent post about this station (linked to above) shows inadequate signage about the penalty fare so I’d be interested to see if anything has been changed in the last few weeks.

Do we not also need to establish whether the TVM accepted the payment method you wished to use or was even able to sell you the ticket you required ?

Those pictures on that thread were of the on-platform signs on the Bradford-bound platform, Penalty Fare signs are required (again if I recall correctly) at the entrances to platforms. So a picture (in the case of this thread) of the approach to the Shipley-bound platform from Frizinghall Road, as well as the TVM itself would be more useful. However I know at other Aire / Wharfe lines there are these signs since last December, as well as splash screens on TVMs (but only the card only ones) & fairly regular audio announcements about the need to buying a ticket before boarding. Some PIS screens also display this message.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Other than reference to the positioning of such signs, which I recall are required at the entrances, is there any specific regulation as to the design, wording etc that makes you consider them inadequate? This may have been asked before, and if so please accept my apologies but I think its important to make such points clear.



Those pictures on that thread were of the on-platform signs on the Bradford-bound platform, Penalty Fare signs are required (again if I recall correctly) at the entrances to platforms. So a picture (in the case of this thread) of the approach to the Shipley-bound platform from Frizinghall Road, as well as the TVM itself would be more useful. However I know at other Aire / Wharfe lines there are these signs since last December, as well as splash screens on TVMs (but only the card only ones) & fairly regular audio announcements about the need to buying a ticket before boarding. Some PIS screens also display this message.

So to recap Northern advertise their penalty fare scheme

• on their website
• in their timetable leaflets/other leaflets
• on posters at station entrances
• via their TVM's
• via text and audio messages on their PIS screens.

For all the bellyaching on this forum can anyone point to a example where someone as actually successfully appealed a penalty fare on the basis of inadequate signage?

 

[robbeech]

For all the bellyaching on this forum can anyone point to a example where someone as actually successfully appealed a penalty fare on the basis of inadequate signage?

The thread I linked to above shows exactly this.

 

[Bantamzen]

The thread I linked to above shows exactly this.

But it doesn't, it shows it shows the notice boards on the Bradford-bound platform. As I've suggested, the Penalty Fare notices are required to be at the entrances. We haven't yet established that these are not present on either the Bradford or Shipley bound platform entrances.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The thread I linked to above shows exactly this.

I stand corrected there, however the OP reports that inadequate signage is being addressed on the Bradford bound side there's no indication at all in the thread that the signage on the Leeds side was inadequate.

Had a lovely apologetic reply from Northern this afternoon confirming I’ll be refunded the penalty fare I paid.

I won’t reveal too much from the email but they took into account my evidence and the way the gate attendant spoke to me and agreed the signage at Frizinghall isn’t adequate to enforce penalty fares.

I don’t think platform two will get a ticket machine, but there will be a sign that directs people to platform one in the future.

Faith restored.

I suspect Northern are more than aware of the issues as they have cropped up and are taking remedial action where necessary. A lesson to be taken on board for TfW Rail Services no doubt....

 

[robbeech]

I stand corrected there, however the OP reports that inadequate signage is being addressed on the Bradford bound side there's no indication at all in the thread that the signage on the Leeds side was inadequate

A valid point. It would be good to know that since Northern haven’t quite got it right with signage at the entrance to the Bradford platform, whether they have done on the other side. Hopefully they will be improving things. Again, sometimes it takes problem to come to light to make them aware of it.

As for this case, we haven’t answered the question of payment method and whether the machine accepts it. Signage needs to clearly state the necessity* to obtain a promise to pay ticket if the machine doesn’t accept your Payment method. If it doesn’t then you could understand a person wishing to pay in cash checking the machine and then walking on to buy at their first opportunity.

My question here from this is, given the way the OP has written this post, with a clearly negative view towards the railway (perhaps partly brought on by this and/or previous incidents), would they have walked on by if the machine does sell 7DS, and did accept their Payment method? If the answer is yes then it’s clear that despite the all too frequent failings of the TOCs the op had no intention of paying for a ticket at the first available opportunity. Please note that absolutely does not mean they had no intention of buying a ticket.

* Though I still await the document that enforces the concept of Promise to Pay that overrides the current rules.

 

[robbeech]

Some photographs from Frizinghall today at 1215.

There ARE penalty fare notices at each of the entrances to both platforms (I’m happy to believe there were not until recently) which should be adequate signage for those able to view these notices.

It’s worth noting that the ticket machine only accepts cards. It’s also worth noting that today the machine was out of order.

 

[Clip]

did you press the help button?

 

[furlong]

The relevant parts of the current regulations are:

(2) a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.

Note that there is no requirement for the notices at the entrances to be readily visible - you might not spot them unless you look carefully e.g. where they are posted on a fence or wall that you walk past and are never in your line of sight.

(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.

I think this is the important requirement that means anyone claiming to be unaware of the requirements imposed on them may be assumed to be dishonest and subject to a penalty - at least one notice must be "readily visible" i.e. "visible without difficulty and visible easily". In some cases the notices at the station entrances will also meet this requirement, but often they will not.

These requirements seem to apply to the station as a whole. It reads as though a notice must be readily visible on every passenger route through the station or else the station does not comply and no Penalty Fare can be charged to any passenger (even ones who used routes that did comply). Some of these notices may need to be above head height to avoid being obscured (and so no longer readily visible) when there are queues or crowds, in the same way that passenger information screens are usually above head height. As the locations of passenger information displays would have already been chosen so as to be "readily visible", and a large percentage of passengers would be expected to consult these displays, perhaps a good rule of thumb to aid compliance might be that a notice should be placed next to every existing passenger information display.

 

[Clip]

As the locations of passenger information displays would have already been chosen so as to be "readily visible", and a large percentage of passengers would be expected to consult these displays, perhaps a good rule of thumb to aid compliance might be that a notice should be placed next to every existing passenger information display.

This is why they are yellow so they stand out and catch the eye

 

[robbeech]

I agree fully with what is said here. And there may be cases where this isn’t compliant. I’d be more than confident to say that at least today, Frizinghall is compliant in as far as there are signs at each entrance that can be read by those able to do so with ease before entering the station.

 

[furlong]

Unfortunately when you zoom in on those photos, it seems they are not using the mandated words, so even though you might consider their choice of words better than the (inaccurate) ones mandated, none of those notices count as standard notices in terms of the regulations.

1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—
...
(c) the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;
(d) the wording “A Penalty Fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable to your journey (whichever is greater)”;

("wording" = "a particular choice of words")

 

[furlong]

Bit of a catch-22 there for the TOC - if they used the mandated words, then it could be argued they were misrepresenting the rules, as "applicable to your journey" is not always correct.

So to comply at the moment, they may try to include both the mandated wording (to satisfy the letter of the regulations) and another sentence that qualifies it with the correct explanation (similar to the current posters).

 

[Gareth Marston]

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Some photographs from Frizinghall today at 1215.

There ARE penalty fare notices at each of the entrances to both platforms (I’m happy to believe there were not until recently) which should be adequate signage for those able to view these notices.

It’s worth noting that the ticket machine only accepts cards. It’s also worth noting that today the machine was out of order.

Thanks for taking the effort.

 

[99p]

So yes the signs are there as already pic'd above. However, I still don't understand how their signs suggest that one cannot board a train without a ticket yet the conductors on the trains still offer to sell tickets which was the case today. I also attempted to purchase a 7 day season ticket without any success, only options I could see were for your standard tickets (adult, child etc) and the M-card which I don't have.

 

[30907]

So yes the signs are there as already pic'd above. However, I still don't understand how their signs suggest that one cannot board a train without a ticket yet the conductors on the trains still offer to sell tickets which was the case today.

Yes, conductors don't consistently enforce the policy, especially when (see the photos) the TVM may be out of order. I agree this doesn't help any.

I also attempted to purchase a 7 day season ticket without any success, only options I could see were for your standard tickets (adult, child etc) and the M-card which I don't have.

If that is the case, then it strengthens your case. However, the home screen - if working - should say that if your ticket is not available you should get a Promise to Pay (button on next screen).

 

[99p]

Yes, conductors don't consistently enforce the policy, especially when (see the photos) the TVM may be out of order. I agree this doesn't help any.


If that is the case, then it strengthens your case. However, the home screen - if working - should say that if your ticket is not available you should get a Promise to Pay (button on next screen).

Sorry but that is contradicting - how can they get away with issuing these penalties yet have their conductors doing the complete opposite and offering to sell tickets! Anyhow, following a call to Northern earlier today, they acknowledged the issue or flaw on the appeals website, asked me to re-submit the appeal but to stress the fact that I was unable to get the site to recognise my ref number. Will see what happens next and update the thread accordingly.

 

[cuccir]

Sorry but that is contradicting - how can they get away with issuing these penalties yet have their conductors doing the complete opposite and offering to sell tickets!

The law is not on your side here. Effectively, when they sell on baord the conductors are using their discretion to offer extra rights - that is, the chance to buy on board - but they're not oblidged to do this. I entirely agree, however, that it's not helpful in scenarios such as yours.

You could continue with the approach of challenging the penalty fare without paying - and you might win (as this thread indicates, Northern's scheme is a bit of a mess). However, if I were in your situation, I'd pay the penalty fare and then write a clear and calm letter stating your objections to it, focusing on the fact that (1) the ticket that you wanted to buy couldn't be purchased at TVMs and (2) you have regularly been able to buy on board. To repeat, the law is on Northern's side and not yours. Paying £55 is annoying but its less than any likely fine associated Byelaws conviction, which is what you risk if you continue with the approach of not paying.

But it all depends really on your tolerance for risk.

Edited - in the first instance, I'd missed that the season ticket is not available from Frizinghall

 

[Kite159]

Not all guards are the same, even in SWR land which has been penalty fares for years & years. Some guards will sell chancers* off-peak tickets with railcard discounts, some guards will only sell the full anytime fare unless you have proof that once again the single TVM is out of order due to running out of ticket stock.

 

[thejuggler]

It is safe to say those small yellow warning signs are not fit for their principal purpose - to convey important information.

The font is far too small, especially the text in the white boxes. I also challenge anyone to notice and read the sign when it is dark, I hae not seen any which are illuminated.

The matter of guards selling tickets merely compounds the problem. I am yet to hear one advise passengers they need to have a ticket before boarding where the facilities exist.

 

[Bantamzen]

So yes the signs are there as already pic'd above. However, I still don't understand how their signs suggest that one cannot board a train without a ticket yet the conductors on the trains still offer to sell tickets which was the case today. I also attempted to purchase a 7 day season ticket without any success, only options I could see were for your standard tickets (adult, child etc) and the M-card which I don't have.

Yes, conductors don't consistently enforce the policy, especially when (see the photos) the TVM may be out of order. I agree this doesn't help any.

As things stand, Northern guards can & do still sell tickets on-board. The Penalty Fare notices talk about the possibility (as in you may receive a penalty fare, as opposed to you will) of passengers receiving one, but doesn't means that guards cannot still sell tickets before passengers reach any revenue block with an authorised member of staff to issue PF. Not ideal for sure, but it has to be remembered that the scheme is still being rolled out & changes made to it's application. This may change in the future, although probably not before the current dispute is brought to a resolution. Of course none of this would ever be need if fare evasion wasn't so rife in this country (ironically Frizinghall was notorious for fare evasion, especially prior to the gates going in at Bradford Forster Square, although that is not to say the OP was ever willingly guilty of that).

But there is going to come a time where passengers on the Northern, and probably much of the rest of the country's network are simply going to have to get used to at least making an effort to buying a ticket before boarding. We can argue until the cows come home about the positioning, design, wording & colour of warning signs, but the change is coming. Hopefully in time TOCs will sort out issues with the availability of all types of tickets at TVMs & electronic procurement routes, meaning that for the majority of passengers buying a ticket will become second nature.

 

[99p]

So to update you guys.... After numerous appeals back and forth with their independent appeals service - who happen to be the biggest crock of ****! This is part of what was included in my last letter from them:

Your case has been fully considered by an independent panel consisting of three members approved by Transport Focus and London TravelWatch, bodies that represent the interests of the travelling public. We have decided to allow your appeal. This means that you are not liable to pay the penalty fare ticket imposed.

So this comes after AS appeals used every excuse to get me to pay including me missing the initial appeal date which meant they wanted me to pay £55! After refusing and reminding them of the crappy website which failed to recognise my ref number, they agreed to review all the evidence and guess what, they still believed I was in the wrong. Again wanted me to pay the £20! I once again refused - this time round the only excuse they could come back with was that there was signage around the station which meant I was liable! I refuted once again on the basis that they continue to sell tickets on their trains instead of imposing these bull**** fines. In addition to all of this, they paid a complete blind eye to the fact that I do pay for my tickets, showed them evidence of doing so and was in fact approached at the time of purchasing a ticket when issued with the fine.

All in all, they are simply using this crap to fill their pockets! Targeting the working travellers who ironically are the ones who always pay for their travel! Also, Northern have been in our local news for their appalling service and the level of complaints they've received! So despite what all of you were chatting on here, I knew I was in the right and my persistence paid off! Not to mention the amount of admin time and resource it would've cost them for this measly £20 - £55 fine!

 

[yorkie]

I am pleased to hear this news but it is shocking it went this far.

Please write to your MP about this.

Do you have an estimate as to how many hours of your time has been wasted on this?

 

[gray1404]

I am delighted to hear that you got this outcome in the end. Well done for seeing it through. I would follow Yorkie's advise and make your MP aware of this too at www.writetothem.com

 

[furlong]

We have decided to allow your appeal.

If they did not provide their reasons, write back and see if they will tell you. (If they resist, try an access to personal data argument.) There might be a matter of public interest which your M.P. could pursue, for example, if their judgement could equally have applied to other PFs where no appeal was made to the panel, or if the company ought to change its behaviour.