frodsham to London Terminals

[a22book]

Hi Forum,

I have an off-peak single ticket for sunday Jan 13th for frodsham to london terminals any permitted route. I was wondering if I can travel to manchester piccadilly first, then get a train from manchester to london. Is this a valid route?

Many Thanks

Chris

 

[LexyBoy]

Appropriate routeing points for Frodsham are Chester and Runcorn.

Using Runcorn, you can use map CS to travel via Manchester - but this only allows silly routes to Manchester, and only from Manchester to London via Banbury.

Using Chester there don't seem to be any usable routes via Manchester.

I may well have missed something though. One option if you need to visit Manchester would be to buy a return from Warrington to Manchester (£8.80/7.90 Anytime Day/Off Peak Day).

BTW is the ticket a "Saver Half" bought in conjunction with an Advance ticket? The full-price Off Peak Single is very poor value at £76.30 compared to the return at £77.30 - I'd always advise buying the return.

 

[soil]

Appropriate routeing points are Chester, Runcorn and Hooton.

An SVS is an appropriate fare for a fares check, and while the SOS from Hooton costs £2.50 more than from Frodsham, the SVS is 10p cheaper.

Hooton doesn't help though.

TCBC says:
From FRODSHAM to LONDON EUSTON via MANCHESTER PIC
Permitted by map GM+MA
25.09m over min distance

But GM+MA doesn't appear to be a valid set of maps for this journey, so don't know why....

 

[LexyBoy]

An SVS is an appropriate fare for a fares check, and while the SOS from Hooton costs £2.50 more than from Frodsham, the SVS is 10p cheaper.

edit: checked the RG and seems I was wrong about that, sorry!

The fares check is not dependent on the ticket type being used for the journey. The SOS should be used wherever possible, followed by the SDS.

 

[SickyNicky]

I couldn't work out what was going on here, initially, until I looked at some depth. It's highlighted a really interesting issue with the routeing guide.

FRODSHAM is associated with these routeing points: CHESTER, HOOTON, Runcorn Group.

HOWEVER it seems that Runcorn East is NOT a member of the Runcorn routeing group, at least in the version of the guide I used to create the routeing system. Therefore on a journey via Manchester, the first routeing point reached is Warrington, from which map combination GM+MA is valid.

However, Warrington isn't a routeing point for Frodsham, so I'm guessing it's not actually Permitted.

This is the first time I've come across an instance where a station has services that don't go through an associated routeing point. It's got to be a mistake in the routeing guide.

 

[a22book]

Hi,

Many Thanks for your replies, I'm still a bit confused to say the least?

The main reason i wanted to go from manchester is there are no trains from frodsham on sunday just rail replacement buses, which then leaves nearly an hour wait in warrington, ( if the bus turns up ). I can get a lift to manchester so thought I'd go from there instead. Don't think I'll take the risk.

As to the fare, it was booked through my work, I've often argued I could buy a cheaper ticket and often first class. O well !!

 

[SickyNicky]

Many Thanks for your replies, I'm still a bit confused to say the least?

Sorry about that. I think the consensus is that the ticket is NOT valid via Manchester and then on to Euston. Sorry.

The problem has been that the Routeing guide that we use to check validity appears to have an error in it around Runcorn, which makes it hard to be sure. This same error appears to have confounded the online booking engines as well - they will offer the journey in one direction but not in the other.

 

[Bidstonboy]

I couldn't work out what was going on here, initially, until I looked at some depth. It's highlighted a really interesting issue with the routeing guide.

FRODSHAM is associated with these routeing points: CHESTER, HOOTON, Runcorn Group.

HOWEVER it seems that Runcorn East is NOT a member of the Runcorn routeing group, at least in the version of the guide I used to create the routeing system. Therefore on a journey via Manchester, the first routeing point reached is Warrington, from which map combination GM+MA is valid.

However, Warrington isn't a routeing point for Frodsham, so I'm guessing it's not actually Permitted.

This is the first time I've come across an instance where a station has services that don't go through an associated routeing point. It's got to be a mistake in the routeing guide.

Yet again the routeing system baffles me. Frodsham is based on fares to/from Warrington(in the good old days of the fares manual), yet you say it is not valid via Warrington? Anybody travelling via Runcorn would have to wait for the once a week Summer Saturday only service!! Most TOCs websites give routeing via Warrington on journey planners too. In this case, a lift to Runcorn if offered could be an option as it's the same price, and would avoid a bus. Thankfully 99% of guards have the routeing guide at the bottom of their lockers under a thick layer of dust.

 

[SickyNicky]

Yet again the routeing system baffles me. Frodsham is based on fares to/from Warrington(in the good old days of the fares manual), yet you say it is not valid via Warrington? Anybody travelling via Runcorn would have to wait for the once a week Summer Saturday only service!! Most TOCs websites give routeing via Warrington on journey planners too. In this case, a lift to Runcorn if offered could be an option as it's the same price, and would avoid a bus. Thankfully 99% of guards have the routeing guide at the bottom of their lockers under a thick layer of dust.

And me! Clearly this is a error in the routeing guide.

 

[calc7]

I couldn't work out what was going on here, initially, until I looked at some depth. It's highlighted a really interesting issue with the routeing guide.

FRODSHAM is associated with these routeing points: CHESTER, HOOTON, Runcorn Group.

HOWEVER it seems that Runcorn East is NOT a member of the Runcorn routeing group, at least in the version of the guide I used to create the routeing system. Therefore on a journey via Manchester, the first routeing point reached is Warrington, from which map combination GM+MA is valid.

However, Warrington isn't a routeing point for Frodsham, so I'm guessing it's not actually Permitted.

This is the first time I've come across an instance where a station has services that don't go through an associated routeing point. It's got to be a mistake in the routeing guide.

And, rather perversely, the ticket allows Frodsham - HOOTON - Liverpool Group - Hunts Cross Group - Runcorn Group - CREWE - ...

 

[soil]

Looks like the following changes needed to:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

RUNCORN Runcorn Group Routeing Point Member
to:
RUNCORN Routeing Point

Plus:
Ellesemere Port:
Frodsham:
Helsby:
Ince & Elton:
Little Sutton:
Overpool:
Stanlow & Thornton:
Chester Hooton Runcorn Group

to:
Ellesemere Port:
Frodsham:
Helsby:
Ince & Elton:
Little Sutton:
Overpool:
Stanlow & Thornton:
Chester Hooton Warrington Group

and
Acton Bridge:
Hartford:
Winsford:
Crewe Runcorn Group Warrington Group

to
Acton Bridge:
Hartford:
Winsford:
Crewe Runcorn Warrington Group

Since Runcorn Group has already been deleted here:

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/group_stations.pdf

I think it would be reasonable to say that since Runcorn Group doesn't exist, or is in a state of limbo, and the appropriate routeing point Runcorn East, is not in fact a routeing point, but is itself associated with Warrington, so Warrington (which passes the fares check) is a valid routeing point, and hence the ticket is valid via Manchester.

 

[SickyNicky]

I think it would be reasonable to say that since Runcorn Group doesn't exist, or is in a state of limbo, and the appropriate routeing point Runcorn East, is not in fact a routeing point, but is itself associated with Warrington, so Warrington (which passes the fares check) is a valid routeing point, and hence the ticket is valid via Manchester.

And that's what TCBC is assuming. However, if you take the routeing guide literally, as it stands at the moment Warrington can never be an appropriate routeing point. Which means Manchester isn't Permitted that way.

 

[kieron]

Using Chester there don't seem to be any usable routes via Manchester.

There are, you know. Chester-Manchester is valid on BC+TV. BC allows Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Crewe, and TV allows Crewe-Wilmslow-Manchester-Stoke-Stafford-Rugby-London. Chris would have to make sure he catches a train through Stoke, though.

Looks like the following changes needed to:
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf

While this would make sense (personally, I wonder whether anything would be lost if Runcorn Group was abolished, and the stations associated with it moved to Hunts Cross), I think there's too much invested in the idea of making a new route validator for the list to be updated again.

 

[34D]

What would be the way to get this resolved?

Can one of us go to ATOC or does it have to be a TOC who refers the issue? If so, I suggest it be referred to a TOC who stands to gain (under orcats) rather than one who may see their share of this flow diluted.

I realise of course that routeing validity and orcats distribution are separate.

 

[calc7]

There are, you know. Chester-Manchester is valid on BC+TV. BC allows Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Crewe, and TV allows Crewe-Wilmslow-Manchester-Stoke-Stafford-Rugby-London. Chris would have to make sure he catches a train through Stoke, though.

Also, if travelling the full length of the route, the train from Crewe to Manchester would have to avoid Stockport (and so go via Styal [and, optionally, Manchester Airport]) - only a few all-stops trains per day permit this, in addition to the 1940 EUS-MAN which goes from Wilmslow to Manchester via the Styal Line.

Of course if starting short at Manchester; this logistical issue merely becomes a theoretical one in order to explain how you are not illegally doubling back from Stockport to Manchester.