Fully Accessible Buses

[Waldgrun]

Can any one please, tell me, when all bus services in England & Wales are
due to be operated by fully accessible vehicles. Many thanks.

 

[cainebj]

1st January 2015 for buses up to 7.5t
1st January 2016 for single deck buses over 7.5t
1st January 2017 for double deck buses
1st January 2020 for coaches.

Vehicles will require a DDA certificate to operate on registered public services after those dates. Remembering that DDA compliance is a lot more than being low floor and having a wheelchair ramp. Buses built 1st November 2000 onwards will already be DDA certified, some older ones can be certified and some can be modified to be certified. Some older low floor buses cannot be modified to meet the requirements.

 

[Waldgrun]

Many thanks, needed details, as Powys C.C. want to alter village bus stops, and need local community (Parish) Council support!
Be a shame to see the going of Tanat Valley's little midi bus,I think it's a 1996 Mercedes-Benz 709D, Reeve Burgess Beaver.
I know what the time scale could be for its replacement!

 

[causton]

Apparently there is a problem with newer buses being unsuitable for rural areas. If you have ever ventured off the main roads in Cornwall you will know what I'm on about, and this comes from Western Greyhound:

http://www.westerngreyhound.com/faqs.php

The government has introduced legislation to replace normal buses with ‘low-floor’ wheelchair-friendly buses in the transport industry and are aware that it is impossible to change all buses overnight due to the massive capital cost involved. Unfortunately, unlike elsewhere, grant money is not available to bus operators here in Cornwall and as you will appreciate, fleets cannot be disposed of overnight early in their working lives; it has to be a gradual process. Larger buses are not the answer, as the existing buses are already too large for the routes we operate. You may be interested to know that the new low floor buses cost nearly twice as much to buy, use nearly twice the fuel and are significantly more unreliable as well as costing more to maintain than our existing buses. They also carry less passengers! There will therefore be a major cost increase for passengers using these buses, as has been the case in London where it now costs up to £2 for travelling just one stop on a low floor bus. Using a bus from our current fleet, you can travel for miles for £2! Also, up to now, there has not been a wheelchair friendly bus designed which can cope with the narrow country lanes, poor road conditions, traffic calming measures and hilly terrain that that exist in some parts of Cornwall. Surmounting the problem of ground-clearance which the long, flat-floor bus faces is a serious challenge. We have been spending a lot of time testing various mobility buses on our routes but only now are manufacturers coming up with a solution. Although vehicles have recently been designed, at this point in time they are operating on relatively unproven and un-robust technology. If this technological barrier wasn’t enough, we are also faced with the phenomenon of our revenue having fallen because we are instructed to give free travel to National Concessionary Bus Pass holder (including eligible disabled people) we are not being adequately reimbursed by the government who is granting it .

We hope that you appreciate that this is not designed to be unhelpful, but simply to let you know the difficulties that we are up against. Please be assured that the issue remains high on our agenda.

 

[Waldgrun]

Makes me wonder if those problems could be used as an excuse to further cut rural bus routes!

 

[gordonthemoron]

the change is most certainly not being done overnight and bus fares costing £2 in London is because they can get awayt with it. Sounds like a right whingebag

 

[MCR247]

That does sound quite unprofessional!

 

[Deerfold]

the change is most certainly not being done overnight and bus fares costing £2 in London is because they can get awayt with it. Sounds like a right whingebag

Bus fares costing £2.30 in London is an inducement to use Oyster to speed everything up and only pay £1.35.

I notice they don't mention that that is a flat fare and lets you travel the length of the route...

 

[tbtc]

Apparently there is a problem with newer buses being unsuitable for rural areas. If you have ever ventured off the main roads in Cornwall you will know what I'm on about, and this comes from Western Greyhound:

http://www.westerngreyhound.com/faqs.php

There will therefore be a major cost increase for passengers using these buses, as has been the case in London where it now costs up to £2 for travelling just one stop on a low floor bus. Using a bus from our current fleet, you can travel for miles for £2!

That does sound like a disengenuous answer.

There is a serious point though, that some routes just won't be able to justify a bigger vehicle - in the way that electrification of some railway lines will see stock that is far too big used (i.e. replacing the bubble car 121s on the Cardiff Bay shuttles with an EMU that is at least three times the size).

The difference is that a longer train should still get down the railway line, but a bigger bus may struggle with rural roads.

 

[gordonthemoron]

european railways have single & 2 car emus

 

[tbtc]

european railways have single & 2 car emus

I can't see that happening here, partly because a single coach EMU would lose a lot of seats when it has a "universal" toilet.

 

[cainebj]

That does sound like a disengenuous answer.

There is a serious point though, that some routes just won't be able to justify a bigger vehicle - in the way that electrification of some railway lines will see stock that is far too big used (i.e. replacing the bubble car 121s on the Cardiff Bay shuttles with an EMU that is at least three times the size).

The difference is that a longer train should still get down the railway line, but a bigger bus may struggle with rural roads.

When you look at what is out there, you'll find the companies are generally speaking rubbish, because they don't want to spend the money.

Back in 2010, Stagecoach in Cumbria received 2 Optare Solo slimline's to replace Mercedes Vario's on the popular Lake District services 77/77A, which travel over both Whinlatter Pass and Honister Pass. Up until then the route had strictly been 709D's or the short wheelbase Vario's, but now take the 8.8m slimline Solo's, and have had 9.3m Darts doing a part route when the Solo's have been unavailable.
The 2 Slimline's were built specifically for the tough, rural work they do, with special tyres, suspension, and other special modifications. The suspension system allows the ground clearance to be increased for travelling over the passes (Ferrylift), putting them on level with the step entrance minibuses. Being built to the standard Stagecoach specification of 28 seats, rather than the Optare standard of 33, they do have a drop in capacity, but that is operator specification (they replaced 27 seat Vario's)

Optare's 7.2m Solo SR Slimline can also be built with the same equipment as the 2 special Stagecoach ones, and come with a seated capacity of 24, making them both the same size and same seated capacity as an average Mercedes 709D (709D's seated 23 or 25 on average). The 7.9m Solo, about 20cm longer than the SWB Vario's, can seat 28, 1 more than the equivalent Vario did in the 90's.

Obviously, not all operators in the UK can justify the cost of brand new vehicles. The same extensive modifications can be carried out to second hand vehicles, with Stagecoach part-modifying a 51plate Solo to be the spare vehicle on the tough services. The costs are significant, however the DDA regulation didn't just come overnight, it has been in place for years now, giving operators plenty of chance to upgrade vehicles and plan their finances around it. It is nigh on impossible to blame the DDA regulations or the bus manufacturers for not selling suitable vehicles, operators can only blame themselves for poor planning and researching.

 

[mbonwick]

Length isn't the problem for Greyhound, its width.

I do know even a Solo SL is wider than a Vario by a small amount, and having seen some of the routes Western Greyhound operate, that little bit makes a heck of a lot of difference.

 

[cainebj]

Slimline's aren't that much wider than a Vario, only about 7cm. About 30cm wider than a narrow body 709D, but they're largely long gone.

 

[WatcherZero]

Low floor buses use twice the fuel you claim? shame on you Greyhound!

 

[mbonwick]

Like I said, that small 7cm makes a lot of difference!

I wouldn't be surprised if new vehicles these days have half the fuel consumption of the manual Varios Western Greyhound use currently. For a start they're autos - so use more fuel. Then the increasingly stringent EU emissions protocols have pushed fuel consumption up too.

 

[cainebj]

They'll have to get something found, such as second hand DDA Vario's, or suffer a capacity drop by getting a Bluebird Orion Plus. They could probably even have their own Vario's converted to the same specification as a factory built DDA one.
Considering DDA for effectively minibuses was extended by 3 years, there won't be any excuses for not having DDA certified vehicles by 1st January 2015.

 

[Waldgrun]

Thanks again cainebj, last night I was able to inform the rest of the council, that the work to raise the kerb, needs to be done by Jan 1st 2015, if the village is to retain its bus service. Also I dropped a bombshell on them, that there is a second stop in the village, which will need looking at! This one is right by the village store, Post office etc. Where the bus has to reverse in order to complete its route.

 

[richw]

Post 2 states Any bus after 1/11/00 should be dda compliant, western greyhound have some 53 and 04 plate step entry mercs.
Another post regarding widths, western greyhound drivers already need to fold their mirrors in on some of the narrower routes, an extra 7cm physically wouldn't fit down these routes, as the existing buses are at the limit, evidenced by the need to fold their mirrors in!

 

[causton]

I'm glad you thought mainly the same way I did about that post from Western Greyhound

Yes, it is a bit whingey, but they're stuck a bit:

a) Increase prices to buy a new specialised bus, and by 'a' i mean tens of them
b) Get the council/landowners to widen the roads so normal buses will fit down them (offering to pay them the cost, probably) and buy normal buses
c) Give up some rural routes???
d) Any other options?

 

[mbonwick]

Post 2 states Any bus after 1/11/00 should be dda compliant, western greyhound have some 53 and 04 plate step entry mercs.

What that should really say is any new design of bus post October 2000 should be DDA compliant. The Vario/Beaver design goes along way back into the 90s, so that's why its step entrance.

 

[cainebj]

The legislation was for ALL buses, not just new designs.
The Vario fell through a loophole, and quite a big one at that.
The 2000 regulations applied to buses with 22 or more passenger seats, of which should have included a Vario; however, the loophole used is that the Vario was classed as a minibus, and didn't fall into the bus category. In addition, the chassis is a van chassis with a bus body built on it. The loophole left Vario's being built to non-DDA specification, the same as coaches being built for stage carriage work (some DDA standards still applied, such as front side and rear destination equipment, bright coloured grab rails etc.) until the loophole was closed in the 2005 regulations, which included minibuses to the DDA regulation, hence stage carriage specification Beaver 2 Vario's from then onwards being built with a nearside wheelchair lift towards the rear of the vehicle. Being low floor isn't part of DDA, so the step entrance wasn't an issue.
Obviously it was one of a kind at the first stage of DDA standards, by then Optare had already moved to low floor with the Solo, classing it as a midibus, therefore had to meet the DDA requirements, and the ALX100 and Marshall MST bodies for the Vario chassis had long since ended production.

The regulations from the DDA deadlines include all vehicles used on stage carriage work, of which will also close the loophole regarding the use of mini coaches on stage carriage services, the exact deadline however, I still find a grey area (under 7.5t, but built as a mini coach could fall under the 1st Jan 2020 coaches category).

 

[BestWestern]

I wouldn't be surprised if new vehicles these days have half the fuel consumption of the manual Varios Western Greyhound use currently. For a start they're autos - so use more fuel. Then the increasingly stringent EU emissions protocols have pushed fuel consumption up too.

It's no secret that modern bus designs are horrendously thirsty and enormously heavy. Operators have been putting increasing pressure on manufacturers to reduce weight, hence the stupidly flimsy bodywork we now have to suffer on many vehicles, but things have probably gone as far as they reasonably can without making massive changes in materials and so on, which obviously incurs massive cost. The simple fact is that smaller operators struggle to absorb the expense of both acquiring and running new buses, when that expense is hugely inflated in comparison to what they are used to. Particularly on occasional rural services, it could surely be considered that an alternative such as an arranged taxi might be a more sensible way of providing the accessible options which are required.