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Future for HST on MML

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edwin_m

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That sheet is all you need to know, really. 0.79 m/s/s is the 222s rate of acceleration, while the most quoted for an 800 series so far is 0.75m/s/s - the electric speed of acceleration is supposedly 1.0m/s/s, but that has incorrectly been used for diesel performance as well. Max speeds are the same, so the empirical data suggests a diesel-powered bi mode will travel at best slightly slower than a 222 running at design standard.
The acceleration figure normally quoted applies only at low speed when the acceleration is limited by adhesion, and will be the same whether on electric or diesel power. However above a certain speed (usually around 20-30mph) the acceleration becomes limited by available power so the rate of acceleration will reduce. 0.75m/s/s or indeed 0.79m/s/s may be an average rate of acceleration but without knowing what speed it is from and to it is meaningless. A bi-mode train will have much more power available, and hence better acceleration at higher speeds, when in electric mode.

The simplest comparative measure of performance is probalby the power to weight ratio, which I calculated on one of the Transpennine threads to be less for an 80x on diesel than for a 185, which has similar power and weight to a 222. I saw a mention somewhere that Hitachi may be looking to increase the number of engines on any 80x derivative for the MML.

I am inclined to agree on East Midlands Parkway. Pointless station which died before it even got going - the moment the local councils pulled out of subsidising a direct bus connection to the airport, it stopped being a viable prospect. The onward connections are atrocious and unsurprisingly nobody except a handful of hardy commuters from Kegworth use it. Leicestershire County Council are banking on Ratcliffe Power Station shutting down so they can build a housing estate there to generate more footfall, but by that time Toton HS2 hub will probably be open and the opportunity lost.
The River Soar a few hundred yards west of the Parkway is the county boundary so both the Parkway and the power station site are in Nottinghamshire. The applicable planning authority is Ruschliffe Borough, and according to published HS2 documents they were unwilling to favour development and this is one reason why the HS2 station went to Toton instead of Parkway. I've seen something else which suggests they may have change their mind since then.

I have to ask. What about 707s instead of 379s, 350/2s or 360s
707s are a possiblility especially if the Corby workings were run by Thameslink, as the similarity with the 700s simplifies both maintenance and crew training. However if 110mph running was desired then it would be more difficult and possibly impossible to obtain approval for a 707, as its running gear is very different from that of the 350 or 360 so much of the work done to get approval for 110mph running for 350s wouldn't be transferrable to 707s.
 
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MML

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East Midlands Parkway
The current service pattern from London sees two trains per hour (one each to Sheffield & Nottingham), both leaving within seven minutes of each other, whilst the two each hour to London also leave within 10 minutes of one another.

While we are talking of switching stopping patterns south of Kettering, would it not be a good idea to also switch those for East Midlands Parkway ? A half-hour stopping interval with a half hourly bus service to the airport should make this a more attractive option for those flying from the airport.
 

jayiscupid

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The acceleration figure normally quoted applies only at low speed when the acceleration is limited by adhesion, and will be the same whether on electric or diesel power. However above a certain speed (usually around 20-30mph) the acceleration becomes limited by available power so the rate of acceleration will reduce. 0.75m/s/s or indeed 0.79m/s/s may be an average rate of acceleration but without knowing what speed it is from and to it is meaningless. A bi-mode train will have much more power available, and hence better acceleration at higher speeds, when in electric mode.

The simplest comparative measure of performance is probalby the power to weight ratio, which I calculated on one of the Transpennine threads to be less for an 80x on diesel than for a 185, which has similar power and weight to a 222. I saw a mention somewhere that Hitachi may be looking to increase the number of engines on any 80x derivative for the MML.


The River Soar a few hundred yards west of the Parkway is the county boundary so both the Parkway and the power station site are in Nottinghamshire. The applicable planning authority is Ruschliffe Borough, and according to published HS2 documents they were unwilling to favour development and this is one reason why the HS2 station went to Toton instead of Parkway. I've seen something else which suggests they may have change their mind since then.


707s are a possiblility especially if the Corby workings were run by Thameslink, as the similarity with the 700s simplifies both maintenance and crew training. However if 110mph running was desired then it would be more difficult and possibly impossible to obtain approval for a 707, as its running gear is very different from that of the 350 or 360 so much of the work done to get approval for 110mph running for 350s wouldn't be transferrable to 707s.


The 707s are underpowered in the specification SWT ordered them. The Siemens factsheet lists them as Bo‘Bo‘+2‘2‘+2‘2‘+2‘2‘+Bo‘Bo‘ (5-car EMU). (40% axles powered)

The Thameslink 700 are 50% powered so you'd loose the benefit of matching speed profiles on the route.

700/1- Bo‘Bo‘+2‘2‘+Bo‘Bo‘+2‘2‘+2‘2‘+ Bo‘Bo‘+2‘2‘+Bo‘Bo‘ (8-car-EMU)
700 - Bo‘Bo‘+2‘2‘+Bo‘Bo‘+Bo‘Bo‘+2‘2‘+ 2‘2‘+2‘2‘+2‘2‘+Bo‘Bo‘+Bo‘Bo‘+ 2‘2‘ +Bo‘Bo‘ (12-car EMU)

The options for the 707 would be to drop a trailer car to make a fleet of 4 car units or order each unit a new motored centre coach (before the 717 order is complete) to boost them all to 6 cars. This then offers the chance for 2x6car instead of 3x4car for peak periods?

Whether the financials on all of the above would stand up against 350/2 or 379 is debatable.
 

ashworth

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East Midlands Parkway
The current service pattern from London sees two trains per hour (one each to Sheffield & Nottingham), both leaving within seven minutes of each other, whilst the two each hour to London also leave within 10 minutes of one another.

While we are talking of switching stopping patterns south of Kettering, would it not be a good idea to also switch those for East Midlands Parkway ? A half-hour stopping interval with a half hourly bus service to the airport should make this a more attractive option for those flying from the airport.

In addition to the service pattern not being very good, fares to destinations away from the MML to London are extremely high in comparison to those from Nottingham and Derby. Leisure travel to destinations like Manchester, Leeds, Chester, York and even Sheffield are in some cases almost double the price from Nottingham because there are no Day Return fares from East Midlands Parkway.
 

LeeLivery

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Problem with East Mids Pkwy is a lot of passengers seem to be using Megabus. If Stagecoach loses the franchise, I can see passenger numbers declining... Would be a good location for a new town though.

I struggle to understand the DfT's position on Corby services. Thameslink 700s aren't acceptable to Corby, yet they are to Peterborough and Littlehampton. I travel along the Midland often to both Nottingham and Wellingborough and I can't see their logic. Passengers of Flitwick and Huntingdon have 50 min journeys from St Pancras, Littlehampton is over an hour from East Croydon, yet alone Central London. 707s would make sense for fleet commonality. I haven't been on a 360 in years. With a good refurb, I wouldn't complain. 379s are good but for some reason, I really don't like the thought of being on one that long. Being in the Southern Region, maybe I'm just sick of them.

The fare structure for Wel, Ket and Corby has resulted in fares being too high compared to Northampton. That should change, especially as these three towns are being encouraged to be commuter towns.

I wouldn't mind Corby services becoming part of Thameslink core, wishful thinking would make it a Sydenham stopper south of the Thames (I know it won't happen). But I agree it doesn't make much sense being operated by the future East Midlands operator. Finally like I've said before, Wellingborough and Kettering cannot lose its direct northbound service to Leicester. Long term this could be a very useful EWR service from Oxford. But in the short term, something else is needed - even if it means extending the Ivanhoe to Bedford until then.
 
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mushroomchow

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The River Soar a few hundred yards west of the Parkway is the county boundary so both the Parkway and the power station site are in Nottinghamshire. The applicable planning authority is Ruschliffe Borough, and according to published HS2 documents they were unwilling to favour development and this is one reason why the HS2 station went to Toton instead of Parkway. I've seen something else which suggests they may have change their mind since then.

You know, I always believed it was on "our" side of the border, but you're right on second glance - I've had a mare there. Though I hope I can be forgiven given the whole Kegworth / Long Eaton area is a 3-way no-mans land separating the East Midlands counties! :lol:

Then again, knowing that, it now explains why the bus services to the airport collapsed so spectacularly - from experience I can tell you that the organisation of cross-border buses is absolutely appalling, and chances are that neither authority wanted to stump up the cash to keep them running when it became clear that passenger takings were lower than hoped.

That does however raise the question - what are LCC doing making speculative plans for sites outside their county border? The impracticalities and complexities of making a coal power plant brownfield site suitable for extensive housing development are monumental, the opportunity to even start won't arise until the mid 2020s at the earliest (by which point HS2 construction will be in full swing) and there's no certainty that the plant will even close - there's plenty of talk of a move to biomass a la Drax.

I'm sure they have some say in the future of Ratcliffe, but I'm surprised that they've been advocating residential development there, presumably to make the cash sunk into the white elephant that is EMP pay off in the long run, even though it's glaringly obvious that NCC themselves have given up and put their eggs in the basket marked Toton. Ultimately, it just goes down as another load of guff thrown out there to mask an unwillingness to fund anything transport-related in the county (Leicester-Burton, I'm looking at you...)

The acceleration figure normally quoted applies only at low speed when the acceleration is limited by adhesion, and will be the same whether on electric or diesel power. However above a certain speed (usually around 20-30mph) the acceleration becomes limited by available power so the rate of acceleration will reduce. 0.75m/s/s or indeed 0.79m/s/s may be an average rate of acceleration but without knowing what speed it is from and to it is meaningless. A bi-mode train will have much more power available, and hence better acceleration at higher speeds, when in electric mode.

Problem is, I'm referring to those diesel engines, which on some routes may well end up providing the primary mode of power. Even with the maximum proposed wire extent and with dispensation to use the HS2 wires between Sheffield and Chesterfield (for which there is no guarantee and still the possibility of some grade separation), a Leeds to London train will be "off grid" for 111 miles, or 51% of its 218 mile journey. Assume the HS2 wires are a no-go and the figure is 124 miles (57%), and even on a Sheffield service the split is 47/53 with the HS2 section use and 54/46 without it. *

Until we know how they perform long-distance on diesel against existing trains, particularly the 222s, I reserve the right to be incredibly sceptical of their introduction. And tacking more diesel engines onto a bi-mode surely isn't the answer? They're already heavy enough as it is.

In an ideal world, I'd hold fire for a few years and wait for battery unit range to improve to the extent needed if we must persist with bi-modes.

Anyway, I'm off on a tangent again. HSTs stop at East Midlands Parkway sometimes. What's their future? ;)

* Fag packet estimate - if anybody has better knowledge of MML mileposts please enlighten me, though I can say with confidence that at least 40% of the longer journeys will be run on diesel power. :)
 
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edwin_m

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Then again, knowing that, it now explains why the bus services to the airport collapsed so spectacularly - from experience I can tell you that the organisation of cross-border buses is absolutely appalling, and chances are that neither authority wanted to stump up the cash to keep them running when it became clear that passenger takings were lower than hoped.
Did it ever have any subsidy? i can't see either council subsidising a service that links a railway station with an airport and will be virtually useless to anyone in that county since any train-airport passengers would be travelling to/from much further afield. Especially as, as mentioned, there are direct buses to the airport from the region's main cities.
That does however raise the question - what are LCC doing making speculative plans for sites outside their county border?
I'd be interested to see the source for your view that Leics is pushing this. If it was anybody I would expect it to be Rushcliffe.
Problem is, I'm referring to those diesel engines, which on some routes may well end up providing the primary mode of power. ... Until we know how they perform long-distance on diesel against existing trains, particularly the 222s, I reserve the right to be incredibly sceptical of their introduction. And tacking more diesel engines onto a bi-mode surely isn't the answer? They're already heavy enough as it is.
I think you're right to be sceptical. From the figures available it's extremely difficult to predict the journey time impact of a bi-mode, but the sort of 20min time savings quoted by Grayling are only possible on the slower trains and would mostly come from cutting out stops south of Kettering.
 

InTheEastMids

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On topic
Anyway, I'm off on a tangent again. HSTs stop at East Midlands Parkway sometimes. What's their future? ;)

Well, doesn't it look a bit like this?
1- bare minimum of accessibility mods to keep them going (a derogation clearly changes "bare minimum" to "nothing")
2- short-term lease of a few extra sets to cover refurbs, or as HST-GTIs to allow more Meridians to double-up - if the alternative for the leasco is storage/scrapping, then they're in quite a weak negotiating position.
3- Replacement when new bi-modes introduced from 2023.
I think the Corby electrification is a bit of a red herring in terms of releasing stock, because it only uses 1 or 2 222s, so a max of 8 extra vehicles (i.e. could allow reduction in HST fleet by 1, but I think more likely to be used to double up current 222 workings)

However, the timetable re-cast that has clearly got to happen to accommodate GTRs high-intensity service and the 2*hour Corby seems more likely to change HST utilisation. Also, if much money gets spent on HSTs, then there will be a temptation to slightly delay the bimode procurement - e.g. "by 2023" could easily become "from 2023".

Off-topic

The impracticalities and complexities of making a coal power plant brownfield site suitable for extensive housing development are monumental, the opportunity to even start won't arise until the mid 2020s at the earliest (by which point HS2 construction will be in full swing) and there's no certainty that the plant will even close - there's plenty of talk of a move to biomass a la Drax.

There's also extensive NG 400 kV infrastructure on the site. That won't go anywhere and also imposes some pretty fundamental constraints on the site, plus also I suspect making it still a good place to connect power generation and/or grid scale batteries. It's much more likely to end up as a mixed use or commercial development. It would be a good site for rail-connected logistics, similar to what's being done at Phase 3 of DIRFT, and this sort of thing already happened at Castle Donington and Hams Hall.
 

edwin_m

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Well, doesn't it look a bit like this?
1- bare minimum of accessibility mods to keep them going (a derogation clearly changes "bare minimum" to "nothing")
2- short-term lease of a few extra sets to cover refurbs, or as HST-GTIs to allow more Meridians to double-up - if the alternative for the leasco is storage/scrapping, then they're in quite a weak negotiating position.
3- Replacement when new bi-modes introduced from 2023.

Probably about right, though I think they will do the mods that are relatively easy and derogate the more difficult/expensive ones. So I think they would fit toilet tanks as a design already exists and isn't a major mod (though there isn't enough space at one end so those toilets would be locked out). They already have an accessible toilet in each class, though not to latest standards, so it could perhaps get the latest interior fittings but if it's a bit too small that could be derogated. Power doors would certainly be derogated under this approach, to avoid having to chop off and replace the end of each coach (not sure if this is strictly speaking an accessibility mod anyway, maybe more about reducing dwell times). PIS could go either way.
 

43074

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On topic...
I think the Corby electrification is a bit of a red herring in terms of releasing stock, because it only uses 1 or 2 222s, so a max of 8 extra vehicles (i.e. could allow reduction in HST fleet by 1, but I think more likely to be used to double up current 222 workings)

However, the timetable re-cast that has clearly got to happen to accommodate GTRs high-intensity service and the 2*hour Corby seems more likely to change HST utilisation. Also, if much money gets spent on HSTs, then there will be a temptation to slightly delay the bimode procurement - e.g. "by 2023" could easily become "from 2023".

Corby uses 3x5-car 222s - if in a timetable recast were to tighten up turnarounds on some services (e.g. at Sheffield the slow services shunt to a siding for 45 minutes) and reduce the time taken for units to do a round trip by accelerating services there's certainly potential to reduce the number of trains needed overall... Add to that skipping stops on the peak services meaning you can get away with fewer coaches on some trains and in total you could probably free up around 5 sets...
 

tbtc

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The current service pattern from London sees two trains per hour (one each to Sheffield & Nottingham), both leaving within seven minutes of each other, whilst the two each hour to London also leave within 10 minutes of one another.

While we are talking of switching stopping patterns south of Kettering, would it not be a good idea to also switch those for East Midlands Parkway ? A half-hour stopping interval with a half hourly bus service to the airport should make this a more attractive option for those flying from the airport.

True, but the question is how you arrange the services to do this.

We have two Nottingham - London services per hour and two Sheffield - London services per hour.

All services should stop at Leicester, most intermediate stations only require one or two services per hour stopping there.

If you want to ensure that the two Sheffield services combine to give a roughly 30-30 split and that the two Nottingham services have a similar 30-30ish split, and you want the Leicester - London pattern fairly well spread out (15-15-15-15 is probably unrealistic but at least ensuring that there are no gaps of more than twenty minutes)...

...then how do you give intermediate stations like East Midlands Parkway/ Loughborough/ Market Harborough/ Bedford a broadly half-hourly service towards London as well as a service to both Sheffield/ Derby and Nottingham?

If it wasn't for Corby messing things up, I'd suggest a half hourly semi-fast from Leicester to London, allowing the other four services (2x Sheffield, 2x Nottingham) to run non-stop south of Leicester - allowing all of the Sheffield/ Nottingham services to stop at both East Midlands Parkway and Loughborough. But given the scarcity of paths south of Bedford (due to Thameslink) and the need for a half-hourly Corby service in future, I don't think there's any optimal stopping pattern on the MML, given the need to deal with fast long distance services (Nottingham people want a ninety minute journey time to London, Sheffield people won't be happy with a journey that takes longer to get to/from London than places further north like Leeds/ York enjoy).

I've suggested before that part of the unwillingness to serve Eat Midland Parkway *may* be because there's no spare capacity on existing services to take on more passengers there (given the poor number of standard class seats on a four/five coach 222), and that future rolling stock may give sufficient seating to encourage them to stop more seats there (if you don't have enough seats to cope with Sheffield/ Derby/ Nottingham - Leicester/ London passengers then it's not worth trying to cram on some Parkway passengers, but a nine coach 802 would allow you to go for the InterCity markets as well as the price sensitive advance motorists wanting Advanced ticket prices)
 

MG11

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What about EMT borrowing some Voyagers from sister company Virgin WC to replace the HSTS and tightening up the schedules on Pendolinos to make up for it? Would that be possible???
 

Chester1

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What about EMT borrowing some Voyagers from sister company Virgin WC to replace the HSTS and tightening up the schedules on Pendolinos to make up for it? Would that be possible???

No it wouldn't be without withdrawing services. VTWCs fleet is already stretched.
 

Ianno87

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No it wouldn't be without withdrawing services. VTWCs fleet is already stretched.

Yes - something like 51/52 of the 56 Pendolinos are diagrammed every day already. You might squeeze that Down by one by stepping everything up at Euston, but screwing up the 9/11 car allocations and maintenence cycles in the process.

Some 'tightening up' was done in 2014 to release Voyagers for the Shrewsbury services.
 

43096

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What about EMT borrowing some Voyagers from sister company Virgin WC to replace the HSTS and tightening up the schedules on Pendolinos to make up for it? Would that be possible???
Given that EMT has 9 HST sets including a maintenance cover set, and that an HST has many more seats than a Voyager, it wouldn’t be “some” Voyagers needed but pretty much “all”. So a complete non-starter as a plan.
 

Domh245

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Sounds like there's a pickle developing

PaulMaynardUK says it is responsibility of the TOC on MML to ensure stock is DDA compliant by 1/1/20. RAIL sources tell me they tried to warn DfT about this and got nowhere. Now HSTs likely cannot be modified. RAIL reported this recently - time for a follow up! [1/2]

We reported how ROSCO saw the problem, had a plan, plan was denied, and now in limbo. Mk 3 door mods needed. Mk 3 door mod specialists working on 3 fleets. There was space, now not. Mk 4s gauge cleared for MML anyone? [2/2]
 

SpacePhoenix

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https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/938742791156523008

PaulMaynardUK says it is responsibility of the TOC on MML to ensure stock is DDA compliant by 1/1/20. RAIL sources tell me they tried to warn DfT about this and got nowhere. Now HSTs likely cannot be modified. RAIL reported this recently - time for a follow up! [1/2]

We reported how ROSCO saw the problem, had a plan, plan was denied, and now in limbo. Mk 3 door mods needed. Mk 3 door mod specialists working on 3 fleets. There was space, now not. Mk 4s gauge cleared for MML anyone? [2/2]

How many sets of loco hauled coaches are there around the UK that are DDA compliant and aren't already spoken for somewhere else?
 

Chester1

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How many sets of loco hauled coaches are there around the UK that are DDA compliant and aren't already spoken for somewhere else?

I don't think there any spare. If they are granted at derogation it should be on the condition that one carriage per set is made fully compliant and the rest have cheap modifications made. That would mean disabled access for at least part of the train and would mean a fully compliant 6 coach set could be leased to another ToC when the new fleet arrives. Upgrading all 12 sets for potentially only 2 years use would be a waste of money.
 

SPADTrap

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The DfT will struggle to wiggle out of this one, I hope, they were asked about it in 2015.
 

Qwerty133

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Still believe that the solution lies in the diversion of bi-mode IEPs from EC (or possibly a mix of EC and TPE) with 91s and mk4s remaining at EC for longer to allow the core service to be maintained (as I believe the temporary rationalisation of service in the extremities of a line is a better solution than throwing unlimited money at a temporary problem).
 

bonzawe

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Still believe that the solution lies in the diversion of bi-mode IEPs from EC (or possibly a mix of EC and TPE) with 91s and mk4s remaining at EC for longer to allow the core service to be maintained (as I believe the temporary rationalisation of service in the extremities of a line is a better solution than throwing unlimited money at a temporary problem).
The East Coast Bi modes 13 x 9Car and 10 x 5 car are primary to replace the 15 HST's. A couple of HST diagrams are under the wires. If all of the new services Lincoln, Harrogate, Middlesbrough cancelled perhaps at most 5-6 9/10 car set could be made available. This could be facilitated by the cancellation of the VTEC franchise but surely implies much more planning than the DFT is capable of.

they are short of bi modes again!
This is a mess
 

Qwerty133

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The East Coast Bi modes 13 x 9Car and 10 x 5 car are primary to replace the 15 HST's. A couple of HST diagrams are under the wires. If all of the new services Lincoln, Harrogate, Middlesbrough cancelled perhaps at most 5-6 9/10 car set could be made available. This could be facilitated by the cancellation of the VTEC franchise but surely implies much more planning than the DFT is capable of.

they are short of bi modes again!
This is a mess
If there are 15 HSTs with at least 2 diagrams fully under the wires 13 units should be more than enough to fulfil all of the services under the wires and if the occasional extras are stopped the 10 5 cars should be able to work nearly all of the north of the border services if they are used singly (if technically possible being coupled with 5 car 801s for the electrified part of the route). Capacity enhancements simply shouldn't be going ahead while other routes are facing the possibility of either failing to meet accessibility legislation or losing a significant proportion of their stock. It may also be possible to bring some 802s from TPE into the picture somewhere as I believe that these are almost solely being used for enhancements or to replace unallocated DDA standard trains.
 

yorksrob

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I don't think there any spare. If they are granted at derogation it should be on the condition that one carriage per set is made fully compliant and the rest have cheap modifications made. That would mean disabled access for at least part of the train and would mean a fully compliant 6 coach set could be leased to another ToC when the new fleet arrives. Upgrading all 12 sets for potentially only 2 years use would be a waste of money.

This sounds like a remarkably sensible and pragmatic approach for the railway (although hopefully the sets will be in use longer than two years !)

It's certainly better than the service dropping off of a cliff because of an arbitrary deadline outlawing rolling stock at the wrong time.
 
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