Future LNER London to Huddersfield services

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DarloRich

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What are you on about?

I know my geography perfectly well, thanks.
Not sure you do. Teesside doesn't have a direct link to London. Eaglescliffe does. The GC service runs up the Durham coast simply because that is the only way the service could get to Sunderland and still have a path south of York which is what GC are really after.

You were the person who started going on about affluence and 'higher-value persons'. Your latest remarks about 'soot-holes' just seem to be more in the same prejudiced vein.

So you don't like the idea that Huddersfield should have all of one direct train to and from London each day. There's really no need to use derogatory language to say that.
I wish this board would allow me to use derogatory language! let me be direct: Huddersfield is a dump. It has few enough jobs and precious few of those that would require a regular service to London. People who make good move out. That is why there are more richer people in Airedale wanting to go to London. The same sort of people aren't living in Huddersfield or Halifax. That may be hard to take but it is the truth. It is the same across the north.

It isnt that I like or don't like Huddersfield having a direct train to London. I think it is a complete waste of time and resources and a pointless exercise in PR puffery designed to placate someone rather than offer a meaningful service OR help fix the economic, employment and/ or transport issues that run down northern towns face. I suspect that through customers will be very limited and the vast majority of passengers on the train after Leeds will have got on there.

As an aside i think the same about the Middlesbrough service even though it will benefit me personally. It is a mere sop to buy of the local politicos.
 

61653 HTAFC

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the 07:15 Leeds KX is an HST. If the desire and platform space for a HST at HUD was there, this service could start from Hudds now.
Fixed that for you!
The Northern Service to Leeds can be easily moved to Platform 5, although that can just about fit a Class 150 on it.
It isn't that easy. The Leeds via Bradford service interworks with other Calder Valley services so can't be guaranteed to be 40m long or less (the maximum that can fit in P5). Whilst a 2-car 150 would be adequate from Huddersfield to Halifax or Bradford (where buses are more competitive due to the circuitous route the railway takes), that service fills up dramatically at Interchange towards Leeds.
 
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jimm

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Not sure you do. Teesside doesn't have a direct link to London. Eaglescliffe does. The GC service runs up the Durham coast simply because that is the only way the service could get to Sunderland and still have a path south of York which is what GC are really after.
Eaglescliffe station must take no more than 15 to 20 minutes to reach by road from most of Middlesbrough, so I'd say it is pretty clear that Grand Central regards it as serving Teesside south of the river, with Hartlepool performing the same role north of the river.

Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate is a 35 to 40 minute drive, much the same as the connecting trains, so hardly the same as getting to Eaglescliffe

I wish this board would allow me to use derogatory language! let me be direct: Huddersfield is a dump. It has few enough jobs and precious few of those that would require a regular service to London. People who make good move out. That is why there are more richer people in Airedale wanting to go to London. The same sort of people aren't living in Huddersfield or Halifax. That may be hard to take but it is the truth. It is the same across the north.

It isnt that I like or don't like Huddersfield having a direct train to London. I think it is a complete waste of time and resources and a pointless exercise in PR puffery designed to placate someone rather than offer a meaningful service OR help fix the economic, employment and/ or transport issues that run down northern towns face. I suspect that through customers will be very limited and the vast majority of passengers on the train after Leeds will have got on there.

As an aside i think the same about the Middlesbrough service even though it will benefit me personally. It is a mere sop to buy of the local politicos.
Is there some reason why you keep abusing Huddersfield and and people who live there - or much of the rest of the north as well, it appears - as opposed to the 'persons of higher value' supposedly populating Airedale? Utterly charmless stuff.

You keep claiming a service leaving Huddersfield somewhere around or shortly before 7am and returning most likely in mid-evening would be a waste of resources.

Could you provide some convincing argument as to why this is the case, perhaps starring with what else you would expect a five-car set to be doing at those times of the day to generate vast income for LNER?

Would anyone happen to know whether the majority of passengers - or should that be affluent persons of higher value with all the rights that status apparently bestows on them - currently boarding the Skipton-London service at places between Skipton and Leeds carry on to Kings Cross? I have my doubts...
 

nr758123

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Huddersfield is a dump.
I quite like it here. What does that say about me?

It isnt that I like or don't like Huddersfield having a direct train to London. I think it is a complete waste of time and resources and a pointless exercise in PR puffery designed to placate someone rather than offer a meaningful service.
On this we agree. Direct trains to London come in the nice-to-have category. What is far more important is the provision of adequate capacity and reliability between Huddersfield and Leeds in one direction and Manchester in the other, and bringing the frequency of local services up to the same level that other routes around Leeds and Manchester have.

Capacity constraints mean that neither of these are easy to achieve, and trying to fit a token through train to London on to an already congested railway would create more problems whilst providing minimal benefit.

It is a mere sop to buy of the local politicos.
Agreed, in relation to both Middlesbrough and Huddersfield.
 

70014IronDuke

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...

It isnt that I like or don't like Huddersfield having a direct train to London. I think it is a complete waste of time and resources and a pointless exercise in PR puffery designed to placate someone rather than offer a meaningful service OR help fix the economic, employment and/ or transport issues that run down northern towns face. I suspect that through customers will be very limited and the vast majority of passengers on the train after Leeds will have got on there.

As an aside i think the same about the Middlesbrough service even though it will benefit me personally. It is a mere sop to buy of the local politicos.
In which case, the local politicians - who are democratically elected (in as much as the UK system is democratic) - should say something like: "This is a step, but a very small step, in the right direction for Huddersfield to have a direct service to London. As representatives of the people of HUDS, we still want more meaningful service for them, within economic reason, to and from London."

And if they don't say something like that, then local media should castigate them for being fobbed off with a sop.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Today I've been in the town centres of both Huddersfield and Dewsbury, and the experience was quite varied. Dewsbury is dying on it's backside for a multitude of reasons that are reflected in other small market towns both in the north and south. Huddersfield is also struggling like most town centres, and whilst it has it's social problems (again, like most other places) it's doing better than Halifax and Bradford, and compares well with Wakefield despite lacking a London service. It's certainly less of a "dump" than Middlesbrough and even Darlington, despite the latter's frequent fast trains to the capital. The university has been both a blessing and a curse as it's priced young single non-students out of the housing market, and led the town to be very "seasonal" in terms of economic activity.

The London service will be nice to have, of course... but much like the Airedale service I expect there'll be a fair turnover of passengers at Leeds.
 

DarloRich

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Eaglescliffe station must take no more than 15 to 20 minutes to reach by road from most of Middlesbrough, so I'd say it is pretty clear that Grand Central regards it as serving Teesside south of the river, with Hartlepool performing the same role north of the river.

Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate is a 35 to 40 minute drive, much the same as the connecting trains, so hardly the same as getting to Eaglescliffe
Would that be the same as Brighouse?

A more accurate comparison would be the drive to Darlington being a comparison with Wakefield. There are quite a few form the south of Middlesbrough who drive to Northallerton for the train to London.


You keep claiming a service leaving Huddersfield somewhere around or shortly before 7am and returning most likely in mid-evening would be a waste of resources.

Could you provide some convincing argument as to why this is the case, perhaps starring with what else you would expect a five-car set to be doing at those times of the day to generate vast income for LNER?
A token London service is not a the cureall you seem to think it is. Of much higher benefit would be more, faster and longer service between Leeds and Manchester that adequately service the economic needs of the area.

Resource doesn't just mean the train which in my view can earn more money on almost any other LNER route. Why bother with service Huddersfield and just run a full 10 car train from Leeds? The track resource could be better used to deliver a better local service which would be of infinitely more use to the good people of Huddersfeild than a high class commuter service one stop to Leeds.

The London service is clearly important to you and seems to be a very big status point in your life. I think it is a waste of time and money. Sorry to be blunt.

Would anyone happen to know whether the majority of passengers - or should that be affluent persons of higher value with all the rights that status apparently bestows on them - currently boarding the Skipton-London service at places between Skipton and Leeds carry on to Kings Cross? I have my doubts...
You are being silly. I was trying to be polite. I shall be blunt: There aren't, in my view, enough people in good enough jobs earning enough money in a run down and grotty Huddersfield to justify this service. You wont like those words either................
 

Andyh82

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Well Huddersfield is less run down and dump like than Bradford and Wakefield, so I propose Grand Central closing down and LNER running fast to Doncaster, in fact why bother stopping there either...

Also TPE should run fast from Leeds to Manchester, nobody in Huddersfield can presumably afford to catch a train...

Who knew one train a day would cause a thread of such rubbish. Much better to leave the stock in Neville Hill for a further hour than cluttering up the tracks at 6am.

Maybe the thread should concentrate on the proposed rail service
 

61653 HTAFC

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There is an 11 minute gap between the 06.27 Newcastle and the 06.38 Wakefield stopper. The proposed London service could run between them.

Didn't need fixing!
Both of which use platforms that an 800-operated service can't start from. P8 might possibly be signalled for an ECS from the Leeds direction, but doing so at the start of the morning peak is quite a risk. To start from P8 it'd most likely have to do what the last 170 of the day does: run all the way to Marsden to reverse, and then act as a through service that just happens to be empty. That 11 minute window is not really an 11 minute window unless you do the Marsden shuffle (otherwise the Newcastle's exit conflicts with the arrival of the LNER ECS). A few minutes' delay to said TPE service and the London will be late too.

If the stoppers revert to their Summer 2018 arrangement (which is subject to Mk5a sets entering service), then there's fewer movements into P4 which would be the obvious (or more realistically, the only) place to start the London service.
 
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xotGD

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Both of which use platforms that an 800-operated service can't start from. P8 might possibly be signalled for an ECS from the Leeds direction, but doing so at the start of the morning peak is quite a risk. To start from P8 it'd most likely have to do what the last 170 of the day does: run all the way to Marsden to reverse, and then act as a through service that just happens to be empty. That 11 minute window is not really an 11 minute window unless you do the Marsden shuffle (otherwise the Newcastle's exit conflicts with the arrival of the LNER ECS). A few minutes' delay to said TPE service and the London will be late too.

If the stoppers revert to their Summer 2018 arrangement (which is subject to Mk5a sets entering service), then there's fewer movements into P4 which would be the obvious (or more realistically, the only) place to start the London service.
I'd assumed the Marsden ecs move as a given. They can lock coaches out as far as Leeds if necessary, same as they do between Skipton and Leeds.
 

55z

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Severe train length restrictions in Platform 5, it will only take a 153 or a 2 car pacer even a 2 car 150 is too long for platform. It could be easily lenghtened without moving a signal and without lengthening platform 4 and it should be done to improve station working.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Severe train length restrictions in Platform 5, it will only take a 153 or a 2 car pacer even a 2 car 150 is too long for platform. It could be easily lenghtened without moving a signal and without lengthening platform 4 and it should be done to improve station working.
A two-car 150 fits, one was in there last week.
 

Class455

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Now that most of the Azumas are now in service and the 5 car bi-modes - which should be working these services - are about to enter service, is there any indication of when LNER services to Huddersfield are due to begin?

I would think not until May at the earliest as I've not heard anything about them being introduced in December
 

JonathanH

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Now that most of the Azuma's are now in service and the 5 car bi-modes which should be working these services are about to enter service, is there any indication of when LNER services to Huddersfield are due to begin? I would think not until May at the earliest as I've not heard anything about them being introduced in December
Huh? There are about 40 Azumas still to come into service. The 9-car bi-modes are currently doing work which will eventually covered by the 9-car electric units.

There can definitely be no plan to introduce a Huddersfield service by December - if there was route learning would have started. The discussion upthread indicates that any service to Huddersfield is only likely to be a once a day extension of a Leeds service.
 

Andyh82

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Now that most of the Azuma's are now in service and the 5 car bi-modes which should be working these services are about to enter service, is there any indication of when LNER services to Huddersfield are due to begin? I would think not until May at the earliest as I've not heard anything about them being introduced in December
Most of the Axumas are no where near in service, they are still in the minority
 

LittleAH

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Now that most of the Azuma's are now in service and the 5 car bi-modes which should be working these services are about to enter service, is there any indication of when LNER services to Huddersfield are due to begin? I would think not until May at the earliest as I've not heard anything about them being introduced in December
If this happens pre-TRU I'd be surprised. No way has Huddersfield got the platform capacity currently.
 

nuneatonmark

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I say good luck to Huddersfield for the new train service. I hope it's a success for them, even it only allows them to get a few crumbs of economic comfort that fall from the table of plenty that is London, it might help the town and surrounding area in general. I try to refrain from calling places a dump unless I have lived in them. I grew up near Hatfield and thought that was a bit of a dump!
 

tpjm

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Something is definitely afoot as a chap from LNER Train Planning called in at HUD to 'look at the platforms' last week. I suspect pre-TRU but post-joining of MAN-HUD-LDS stoppers. (Which, to be honest, could be achieved by having a 10 min dwell in HUD Platform 4, treating it like two services but with one head code, making the platform occupancy more like 20 mins in every hour)
 

Mark Teesside

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As regards the Middlesbrough-London service I understand that it will also call at Thornaby so it’ll actually serve quite a large catchment area. Teesside has been crying out for a direct London link for years and yes Grand Central serves Eaglescliffe but surely a town like Middlesbrough and indeed Huddersfield are big enough to warrant through services. 5 car azuma trains will be ideal for these routes. As an aside I really don’t understand all this name calling of each other’s towns and cities. I travel all over the country and have seen some absolute dives but I would never publicly call them names. Good luck to Huddersfield and Middlesbrough, hopefully these new links will prove a massive boost to both economies
 

LittleAH

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I say good luck to Huddersfield for the new train service. I hope it's a success for them, even it only allows them to get a few crumbs of economic comfort that fall from the table of plenty that is London, it might help the town and surrounding area in general. I try to refrain from calling places a dump unless I have lived in them. I grew up near Hatfield and thought that was a bit of a dump!
It's where I live. I travel all over the north with my work, it's no difference than anywhere else where the high street is dying. Probably hit harder than most due to the close proximity of Meadowhall, Manchester and Leeds. Would one train a day to London make any difference? doubtful. Would it be nice? sure. I'd much rather have quicker direct links to Sheffield etc.
 

Kite159

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It's where I live. I travel all over the north with my work, it's no difference than anywhere else where the high street is dying. Probably hit harder than most due to the close proximity of Meadowhall, Manchester and Leeds. Would one train a day to London make any difference? doubtful. Would it be nice? sure. I'd much rather have quicker direct links to Sheffield etc.
Depends on the time of day the token daily service operates, if it runs like the Sunderland service right at the start & right at the end it won't make much impact.
 

Old Yard Dog

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I also remember a time when the current 2330 Leeds service left at 2310 and conveyed a portion for Huddersfield and Halifax unless I am remembering wrong
I seem to remember a late London train in the late 1960s running to Bradford Exchange via Halifax. This used to annoy me as it meant there wasn't a late connection from Leeds to Bradford which made it difficult to get back from a whole host of destinations.

I remember coming back from Bradford's antepenultimate match in the Football League away to Workington in April 1970, a night match. I had to change at Carlisle on to a Glasgow - Leeds working full of Leeds fans who had just seen their side lose to Celtic (to my double delight!). But I dared not ask them the score. With no onward connection to Bradford, I had to catch the 0345 no. 65 night bus to Stanningley, then walk to Thornbury bus depot. I then blagged my way on to a trolley bus staff car to Bradford city centre and then caught the first 76 bus up to Great Horton.
 

Andyh82

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Why does the London to Huddersfield service show as a Leeds to Huddersfield service?
It splits off from the London KX to Skipton, so needs a different head code. Presumably the rear 5 coaches of a 2x5 Azuma will run ahead to Huddersfield
 

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