Future of 22x Units

[The Ham]

If XC had the remaining 22x units, I assume they would've been able to implement their plan from April 2017 (Extending all Bristol-Manchester trains to Exeter and daytime service to Aberdeen) without having to sacrifice other services?

Such an extension would require 5 extra units (assuming 1tph) even with the 221's that's still at least 15 extra extra units to strengthen other services (an extra even assuming that there's no running in pairs currently that's ~25% of the fleet could be run as pairs).

 

[greatvoyager]

Maybe more 22x units for XC will enable stronger links and perhaps all Newcastle-Reading services could extend to Bournemouth (dependant on available paths)

 

[greatvoyager]

I think that the interiors will need an urgent refresh.

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe more 22x units for XC will enable stronger links and perhaps all Newcastle-Reading services could extend to Bournemouth (dependant on available paths)

Personally I think Crosscountry should focus on strengthening all existing services before any are extended. The twenty ex-Virgin 221s would be just enough to ensure that no Crosscountry services have to run with less than five carriages (All 4-car sets could run doubled up).

I think that the interiors will need an urgent refresh.

You'd hope so. The Voyagers will have been in operation for over twenty years before either the Virgin 221s or EMR 222s become available. BR's frontline inter-city stock didn't go nearly so long without an interior refresh or refurbishment.

 

[greatvoyager]

Personally I think Crosscountry should focus on strengthening all existing services before any are extended. The twenty ex-Virgin 221s would be just enough to ensure that no Crosscountry services have to run with less than five carriages (All 4-car sets could run doubled up).

You'd hope so. The Voyagers will have been in operation for over twenty years before either the Virgin 221s or EMR 222s become available. BR's frontline inter-city stock didn't go nearly so long without an interior refresh or refurbishment.

I hope that a future franchise commitment includes a full refurbishment.

 

[greatvoyager]

Some people have suggested that they could be sold abroad too.

 

[greatvoyager]

I imagine that regardless of operator, the shop will be removed from ex-West Coast 221s and Midland 222s

 

[Energy]

I imagine that regardless of operator, the shop will be removed from ex-West Coast 221s and Midland 222s

That's if 222s have a future after EMR, by then XC could have new trains arriving soon and the 221s from VT

 

[greatvoyager]

That's if 222s have a future after EMR, by then XC could have new trains arriving soon and the 221s from VT

Very true.

 

[greatvoyager]

I know it would reduce capacity, but it would be nice if the seats were aligned like they are in Coach D on West Coast 221s.

 

[Energy]

I've had an idea, the 220s and 4 car 221s could replace the 170s on XC, the 5 car 221s can go to Chiltern with a single 221 replacing each 168 and 2 221s coupled together replacing a 68/mk3. Then 11 XC 170s can join Chiltern to be converted to 168s and used with the existing 168s to replace the 165s, these 165s can go to GWR and replace the 158s and 150/2s. The remaining XC 170s can go to Northern to replace the 153s or other trains or can join EMR.

The 220s and 221s current routes would be taken over by bimodes.

Chiltern 221s could not happen and instead Chiltern get new trains

 

[greatvoyager]

I wonder if people would find 22x units to be a step up or down from 170s.

 

[Energy]

I wonder if people would find 22x units to be a step up or down from 170s.

They accelerate faster, with a good refurb I think they could do well on the 170 routes

 

[greatvoyager]

They accelerate faster, with a good refurb I think they could do well on the 170 routes

That's very true.

 

[greatvoyager]

I wonder how long it will be before an announcement gets made about what's happening. With the non XC 22x units coming of lease in 2022, it could be part of the requirements for the next franchise.

 

[Haydn1971]

220: 34 x 4-car
221: 30 x 4-car, 1 x 5-car, 13 x 7 car
222: 14 x 4-car, 2 x 5-car, 11 x 7 car

This gives a total of 40 x (4+4/5) cars and 24 x 7 cars (plus an additional single 5 car unit).

I like how tidy and consistent that feels, however... what’s the proportion of services that already run doubled up and there are about 450 seats on a CC HST, vs 400 on a doubled up 4+4 formation.

Given the chronic overcrowded use of CrossCountry that I’ve seen in peak in the York-Leeds/Doncaster-Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham corridor, I don’t think 7/4+4 car formations would be sufficient and suspect the step change that comes with 5 car 802/804 type units running doubled up in the core during peak hours would be more sensible longer term...

I don’t think that means the 22x units are doomed, they just need a better home on lines where there are limited advantages to having a bi-mode unit - My gut feeling is pushing these units into regional express service use (coughs Northern Connect), replacing regional 170/185/195 type units, to enable cascade of these units to replace the remaining 1980s 153/155/158/159 on local stopper services. There’s still 15-20 years in the 22x fleets, an new engine pack, ful interior refurb and perhaps some length changes, maybe limit to 100mph would be a step change for the northern regional express services.

 

[greatvoyager]

I like how tidy and consistent that feels, however... what’s the proportion of services that already run doubled up and there are about 450 seats on a CC HST, vs 400 on a doubled up 4+4 formation.

Given the chronic overcrowded use of CrossCountry that I’ve seen in peak in the York-Leeds/Doncaster-Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham corridor, I don’t think 7/4+4 car formations would be sufficient and suspect the step change that comes with 5 car 802/804 type units running doubled up in the core during peak hours would be more sensible longer term...

I don’t think that means the 22x units are doomed, they just need a better home on lines where there are limited advantages to having a bi-mode unit - My gut feeling is pushing these units into regional express service use (coughs Northern Connect), replacing regional 170/185/195 type units, to enable cascade of these units to replace the remaining 1980s 153/155/158/159 on local stopper services. There’s still 15-20 years in the 22x fleets, an new engine pack, ful interior refurb and perhaps some length changes, maybe limit to 100mph would be a step change for the northern regional express services.

I agree they still have years yet, and I love 22x units, but is any operator or leading company going to invest in a new engine pack (and all associated transmission changes), and changing so many lengths? Is that going to be cheaper than getting newer trains which would have a longer service life?
I see them all going to XC, and then, sadly, dumped en masse as soon as they reach life expiry.

 

[greatvoyager]

When they retire the 22x units, I wonder if any will escape the scrapyard.

 

[Mikey C]

The 222s are better trains than the earlier Voyagers, and as nobody other than VTWC (and its successor) uses tilt on the Voyagers, I imagine they'd be the last of that type to be scrapped.

 

[greatvoyager]

The 222s are better trains than the earlier Voyagers, and as nobody other than VTWC (and its successor) uses tilt on the Voyagers, I imagine they'd be the last of that type to be scrapped.

That's a good point. I hope 1 each of the 220, 221 and 222 units is preserved.

 

[quantinghome]

That's a good point. I hope 1 each of the 220, 221 and 222 units is preserved.

I hope so. Then future train designers can learn how not to do it.

 

[greatvoyager]

I hope so. Then future train designers can learn how not to do it.

Or it could be something nice for fans of 22x units.

 

[greatvoyager]

I wonder if 22x units will ever be cured of their problems in wet weather, specifically the Dawlish sea wall.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 222s are better trains than the earlier Voyagers, and as nobody other than VTWC (and its successor) uses tilt on the Voyagers, I imagine they'd be the last of that type to be scrapped.

222s are only mid-00s aren't they? They'll go a few years later than 220/221.

 

[greatvoyager]

222s are only mid-00s aren't they? They'll go a few years later than 220/221.

They are, but it will depend on demand. There's no guarantee that Meridians will outlast the Voyagers.

 

[Meerkat]

How versatile and expensive to run are the 22x’s?
If the lease/sale is cheap enough would they work for DRS and the like?
With a system to shut down unnecessary engines would they be competitive with top and tailed LHCS (eg the 37s and mk2s) for spot hire for covering stock shortages, event traffic, and charters?
I guess they haven’t be cleared for many lines already which would be a big disadvantage against 37/mk2, but a better passenger environment (for normals at least) and less exhaust drama to scare the greens.

 

[greatvoyager]

How versatile and expensive to run are the 22x’s?
If the lease/sale is cheap enough would they work for DRS and the like?
With a system to shut down unnecessary engines would they be competitive with top and tailed LHCS (eg the 37s and mk2s) for spot hire for covering stock shortages, event traffic, and charters?
I guess they haven’t be cleared for many lines already which would be a big disadvantage against 37/mk2, but a better passenger environment (for normals at least) and less exhaust drama to scare the greens.

The 22x units can run with 1 or 2 engines switched off, as they are overpowered. I think that they would still be lacking in capacity, even when doubled up, to be competitive for spot hire or events.
Charters could be a different matter, but as you say, they would need more route clearance.

 

[swt_passenger]

I wonder if 22x units will ever be cured of their problems in wet weather, specifically the Dawlish sea wall.

They don’t actually have problems in ordinary “wet weather” do they? However Modern Railways have recently reported that a fix for Dawlish sea spray and heavy waves is currently being trialled and analysed.

 

[greatvoyager]

They don’t actually have problems in ordinary “wet weather” do they? However Modern Railways have recently reported that a fix for Dawlish sea spray and heavy waves is currently being trialled and analysed.

No, hence why I said specifically the Dawlish sea wall, but if you happen to live along the Riviera line like me, you notice just how much of a problem it becomes in high tides.

 

[hooverboy]

No, but if you happen to live along the Riviera line like me, you notice just how much of a problem it becomes in high tides.

it's basically salt fog corrosion that causes the problem.

it's a pretty standard test in avionics.