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Future of rail freight services to/from Thamesport?

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ac6000cw

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One of the problems (or opportunities, depending which side of the fence you're on), is that by definition 'intermodal' traffic is very easy to switch between transport modes, so it's very sensitive to transportation price and service quality.

The short distances from ports to customers here (a lot of the UK is within a days' drive of any major port) makes rail very vulnerable to truck competition, so it's hardly surprising that train services to ports come and go.

(Even in the US, where the two major 'western' railroads carry the largest share of the west coast - midwest/east coast 'land bridge' container traffic, they are looking over their shoulders at what effect the newly enlarged Panama Canal might have on that huge business for them - and of course the east coast ports are rubbing their hands at the prospect of more/larger ships calling....)
 
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Wavertreelad

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One of the problems (or opportunities, depending which side of the fence you're on), is that by definition 'intermodal' traffic is very easy to switch between transport modes, so it's very sensitive to transportation price and service quality.

The short distances from ports to customers here (a lot of the UK is within a days' drive of any major port) makes rail very vulnerable to truck competition, so it's hardly surprising that train services to ports come and go.

(Even in the US, where the two major 'western' railroads carry the largest share of the west coast - midwest/east coast 'land bridge' container traffic, they are looking over their shoulders at what effect the newly enlarged Panama Canal might have on that huge business for them - and of course the east coast ports are rubbing their hands at the prospect of more/larger ships calling....)

The other problem is the way the shipping lines operate. By the end of this year most of the major lines will be members of groupings allowing them, subject to global approval by respective governments to share space on each others sailings. This will mean that Maersk, CMA-CGM and MSC will become members of P3, Hapag Lloyd, OOCL, NYK, APL, MOL, Hyundai will be G6, whilst Hanjin, Cosco, K-Line, Yang Ming, and Evergreen will form CHYK. These groupings will mainly dictate east/west services around the globe, whilst only some north/south trades will be covered. These groupings probably represent about 90% of deep sea traffic in the trade lanes covered. Because historically shipping lines have favoured individual port calls, ie Maersk prefers Rotterdam, whilst MSC prefers Antwerp, whilst CMA-CGM favours Le Havre, the lines used different terminals in these ports and have to decide which terminal to concentrate their services on, in order to gain the economies of scale. In the UK there is no choice at individual ports, so what tends to happen is the lines switch between ports. Maersk and MSC both favour Felixstowe, but CMA- CGM prefers Southampton, but MSC and CMA-CGM also favour feeding cargo to regional ports, in fact the MSC service into Liverpool has one of the largest container exchanges in the network for a feeder service. Maersk on the other hand prefers a single port policy, although it has recently been using a feeder service into Liverpool for some specific traffic. P6 favour Southampton, but Hapag Lloyd runs services out of London Gateway, instead of Tilbury, Liverpool, and slot charters on MSC services out of Felixstowe to South Africa. As these groupings get larger, the effect on the ports is greater, and can have extreme changes in fortune, Thamesport being the classic example, next could be Tilbury because it is not able to handle vessels of 5000 teu or more which are set to become the norm in many deep sea trades.

The USA has it's own problems, with no ports in the country able to handle a 18000 teu vessel and out-dated working restrictions, as well as infrastructure that is incapable of handling containers with a payload of about 18000 tonnes. US law prohibits foreign liner companies being involved in US coastal trades, and the requirement to operate these ships under the US flags means feedering containers, European and Asian style is not an option.
 

BRX

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Update May 2016:

As discussed in the earlier part of this thread, the fact that long-haul container services effectively abandoned Thamesport in 2013/14 meant that the once regular freightliner services dried up and at the moment as far as I know nothing runs to Thamesport at all (although trains continue to run to other destinations on the Isle of Grain).

I've just seen that there's a plan to build a new "intermodal" facility there which looks like it's going to go ahead this year:

http://www.portfinanceinternational...ations-to-build-facility-at-london-thamesport

The Armitt Group, a respected UK shipping agent and specialist logistics company, has signed a heads of terms agreement to build a 120,000 ft.² multimodal terminal at London Thamesport. Freight could start moving through the new facility as early as autumn this year.

http://www.heavyliftpfi.com/news/armitt-in-at-thamesport.html

Construction of the site and warehouse is due to start now with shipments beginning later this year. Armitt Multimodal Terminal South, as it will be known, is the first in a three-stage investment by the Armitt Group to develop similar facilities in the Midlands and North of the UK within the next three years.

So, perhaps we can hope for some rail traffic to return?
 
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RichmondCommu

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So, perhaps we can hope for some rail traffic to return?

Only if it means shipping lines decide to switch from another port in which case it couldn't really be described as new freight services. And there certainly won't be freight services to the rest of the SE as the distances would surely be too short to be economically viable.
 

BRX

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Only if it means shipping lines decide to switch from another port in which case it couldn't really be described as new freight services. And there certainly won't be freight services to the rest of the SE as the distances would surely be too short to be economically viable.

Have you read the links?

Armitt is confident that in time, it can move up to two million tonnes of high quality steel products through its warehouse per year, by attracting up to 50 deep sea handy size vessels and up to 100 short sea port calls a year to the facility.

They seem to be banking on attracting new services. But in any case, whether those services switch from another port or are entirely "new" isn't really relevant to the question of whether rail services from Thamesport might resume. Also:

Armitt also ...is currently in talks with Hutchison Port Holdings (HPH) Group to secure an additional area to handle shipments of aggregates for consumption within the M25.

Aggregates are currently taken by rail from other Thames locations to terminals within the M25 so it seems plausible that they could do the same.
 
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RichmondCommu

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Aggregates are currently taken by rail from other Thames locations to terminals within the M25 so it seems plausible that they could do the same.

I concur however the 'headline' was Intermodal traffic and I'm pretty damn sure that running Intermodal services from Thamesport to the rest of the South East would not be financially viable. Aggregates are of course a completely different matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They seem to be banking on attracting new services. But in any case, whether those services switch from another port or are entirely "new" isn't really relevant to the question of whether rail services from Thamesport might resume.

"Banking" is very different to reality. These forums often feature freight terminals that 'might happen'. I'm curious to know which of the UK ports all of this steel is currently being imported through and how much is carried by rail.

Let's wait and see if anything actually happens.
 

BRX

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If you read the links you'll see that they have signed an agreement with the port to build the new facility, which counts as reality in my book. Of course that agreement might collapse, or they may have made a commercial mistake meaning that they won't be able to attract the traffic they hope for.

But yes, we will see what actually happens.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if all or nearly all of their cargo ends up going out by road. However, they are clearly deliberately building something rail connected (I would more accurately have said "multimodal" rather than "intermodal"), plus this seems to be linked to be plans to build similar facilities elsewhere in the UK at a distance where rail transfers between them might make sense. So it seems it is something worth keeping an eye on.
 

Wavertreelad

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If you read the links you'll see that they have signed an agreement with the port to build the new facility, which counts as reality in my book. Of course that agreement might collapse, or they may have made a commercial mistake meaning that they won't be able to attract the traffic they hope for.

But yes, we will see what actually happens.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if all or nearly all of their cargo ends up going out by road. However, they are clearly deliberately building something rail connected (I would more accurately have said "multimodal" rather than "intermodal"), plus this seems to be linked to be plans to build similar facilities elsewhere in the UK at a distance where rail transfers between them might make sense. So it seems it is something worth keeping an eye on.

Indeed. I would think the chances of intermodal trains running are fairly low as Armitt is not in this market and if Hutchinson Ports is unable to gain support for the facility there can not be much chance for anybody else. Armitt is very much into bulk products including steel and it is this latter market that I suspect you will find this being moved through the port which has sufficient deep water to service Panamax bulkers that carry this sort of cargo from Korea and China (assuming current market conditions prevail). On this basis I suspect Tilbury is the most likely to loose market share in this market.

We should also not forget that Peel Ports are the statutory port authority for Sheerness and Thamesport and that Armitt already has a close working relationship with Peel in the North West. In fact it was also reported that Peel who own the Port of Liverpool and Manchester Ship Canal as well as Sheerness had expressed an interest in purchasing the terminal from Hutchinson, but in view of this deal this seems to have been dropped, but I would not rule out Peel being involved in it at some point. Peel seem to be redeveloping Sheerness in other directions and this involvement by a "third party" might be an ideal compromise for all concerned.
 

BRX

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Armitt is very much into bulk products including steel and it is this latter market that I suspect you will find this being moved through the port which has sufficient deep water to service Panamax bulkers that carry this sort of cargo from Korea and China (assuming current market conditions prevail).

That's kind of what I reckoned too, without knowing anything about them other than looking at their website.

It's hard to tell if they really shift anything by rail at the moment. Is that something they do in other locations, do you know?
 

Wavertreelad

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That's kind of what I reckoned too, without knowing anything about them other than looking at their website.

It's hard to tell if they really shift anything by rail at the moment. Is that something they do in other locations, do you know?

As far as I know they are not involved in rail operations in the North West but tit appears this could be an area they are looking at, witness this extract from an article that appeared in the trade press today.

"Clemence Cheng, chief executive of Hutchison Ports (UK) Ltd and managing director of HPH Europe, disclosed in a speech that a rail project was in the pipeline that could assure Thamesport’s future.

“At London Thamesport we are in advanced discussions with the Armitt Group about developing a rail-connected facility for steel handling,” he said in April"

Courtesy of IFW 11 May 2016

http://www.lloydsloadinglist.com/fr...-as-breakbulk-facility/66376.htm#.VzN2-o-cE5s
 

ChiefPlanner

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I suspect with vicious competetion from London Gateway / Tilbury etc and the lack of W10 clearance (note any passing intermodal train for the number of 9'6 boxes) - it may be just a tad challenging for rail served box traffic.
 

Wavertreelad

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I suspect with vicious competetion from London Gateway / Tilbury etc and the lack of W10 clearance (note any passing intermodal train for the number of 9'6 boxes) - it may be just a tad challenging for rail served box traffic.

The killer was the ships required deeper water and this was simply not possible, plus it was difficult to cover road haulage deliveries due to the ports relative remoteness from Tilbury /Felixstowe corridor.
 

furnessvale

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It looks like an attempt to build up a dedicated metals import/export facility.

From a purely selfish railfreight point of view, anything which consolidates traffic into a single location will help to build up critical mass and longer distances which must aid railfreight's chances.
 

BRX

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I don't think wanting railfreight to succeed can be described as "selfish" really, anything that gets HGVs off the roads has to be a good thing for everyone (except road haulage companies obviously).
 

furnessvale

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I don't think wanting railfreight to succeed can be described as "selfish" really, anything that gets HGVs off the roads has to be a good thing for everyone (except road haulage companies obviously).

Paradoxically, the removal of ANY HGV from our roads must benefit those that remain, which could be described as the ones being truly "essential".

The problem is, talk to ANY consignor or haulage company, and they will always insist that THEY are essential road users, and perhaps I should talk to others who are obviously less "essential" than them!
 

BRX

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I was reading up a bit on Sheerness (just the other side of the Medway estuary from Thamesport), and I see that there is a "20 year masterplan" (supposedly starting from 2014) which amongst its aims has improvements to the rail connections to the port (potentially using the site of the steelworks which closed down a few years ago). It looks like it's mainly imported cars that they'd be aiming to move by rail from there.

Not sure exactly what the current status of that masterplan is though.
 

Class 170101

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Armitt is confident that in time, it can move up to two million tonnes of high quality steel products through its warehouse per year, by attracting up to 50 deep sea handy size vessels and up to 100 short sea port calls a year to the facility.

Thats not many ships per week!

Just about one deep sea type ship
and
two short sea port calls per week

I am sure each of Felixstowe, Southampton and Thames Gateway handle more ships per week.
 

furnessvale

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Thats not many ships per week!

Just about one deep sea type ship
and
two short sea port calls per week

I am sure each of Felixstowe, Southampton and Thames Gateway handle more ships per week.

That is certainly true but not really comparable.

With a bit of luck, Thamesport will become a specialised metals port providing sufficient traffic for some trainload work.
 

Wavertreelad

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Thats not many ships per week!

Just about one deep sea type ship
and
two short sea port calls per week

I am sure each of Felixstowe, Southampton and Thames Gateway handle more ships per week.

What you have to remember is that in the future those ships calling at Thamesport will NOT be carrying containers, instead they will be bulkers or conventional liner vessels. These types of ships take days instead of hours to discharge so a couple of vessels a week, depending of course the tonnages involved, could keep the port reasonably busy. Assuming they retain the existing gantry cranes they will likely adapt the spreaders on the existing gantry cranes by fitting hook in the middle of the spread. The Port of Liverpool did a similar modification to it's gantry cranes at Seaforth in the 1980's to handle container ships that at the time carried both containers and copper ingots. It's then merely a question of hooking and unhooking the slings around the steel coils, or beams that will likely form the majority of the steel cargoes handled.

Update - LLoyds list 16 May 2016 is reporting the Hutchinson has not given up on trying to find liner, and thus container customers for Thamesport. Sorry cannot provide the full story yet as it a subscription service article.

https://www.lloydslist.com/ll/sector/containers/article525253.ece
 
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BRX

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This article seems to suggest Armitt are planning to create an aggregates handling facility in addition to what was announced a few months back.

http://www.bdcmagazine.com/building...amesport-deliver-new-aggregate-facility-11669


The London Thamesport site will see the construction of a new aggregate facility later in the year.

The Armitt Group, a shipping agent and break bulk specialist, will construct the new multimodal terminal for construction aggregates and has now signed a head of terms agreement with Hutchinson Port Holdings (HPH), the owner of the port.

It is expected that construction will being in the autumn and freight could start moving through the new construction in early 2017.

The facility will be known as Armitt Multimodal Terminal South and is the first in a planned three stage investment by The Armitt Group to develop similar sites in the north of the UK and the midlands over the course of the next three years.

Armitt Group Commercial Director, Nicholas Marshall, said that this is an excellent chance to open a new supply chain corridor service to Far Eastern and European markets and the facility will also be a key link in the company’s plans to develop a fully integrated supply chain throughout the UK.

He added: “As we are break bulk handling professionals, it will benefit our aggregate clients as we will be able to manage the whole supply chain on their behalf and Thamesport, with its excellent deep water, rail-connected and un-congested facility is an important link in that chain.”

The group also has plans to handle further breakbulk cargo from the port and is currently in discussions with the Hutchinson Port Holdings Group to secure a further area of up to eight acres to handle shipments of aggregates for consumption across the M25.

Armitt said that Thamesport was chosen because of the site’s excellent rail and road communication links along with its deep water berths.

In May, Armitt announced the construction of a 120,000 sq m multimodal terminal at the London Thamesport site, which is expected to begin handling cargo by the end of this year.
 

BRX

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Mention now of a steel handling facility.

https://www.drybulkmagazine.com/por...teel-handling-facility-for-london-thamesport/

London Thamesport has signed an agreement with The Armitt Group for a purpose-built, 120 000 ft2 specialist steel handling facility at the Kent port.

Construction of the first phase is underway, which once completed will offer multimodal connections for breakbulk cargo handled in the South East of England.

The facility will allow the Armitt Group and its customers to take advantage of London Thamesport's deep-water berths and rail and road links to London, the South East and beyond to the Midlands and North West.

Commenting on the agreement, Clemence Cheng, Managing Director of Hutchison Ports Europe, owners and operators of London Thamesport, said: "We welcome this partnership with The Armitt Group at our London Thamesport facility. The investment demonstrates the port’s advantages for multi-purpose, as well as containerised, cargoes. As well as a renowned ship’s agency, the Armitt Group is one of the UK’s leading specialists in the handling of steel products and the excellent combination of deep-water and multimodal rail and road connections at London Thameport will provide it with a platform from which to develop its business."

Charles Gray, Managing Director of Armitt, added: "We see this new relationship with London Thamesport as a great opportunity to open up a new supply chain corridor for The Armitt Group to service European and Far Eastern markets and is a critical link in our plans to develop a fully integrated supply chain across the UK."

The new facility will be operated by the Armitt Group and has been designed specifically for the handling of high quality steel products.
 

BRX

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Update, looks like they have nearly finished the first phase.

http://www.breakbulk.com/armitt-groups-huge-statement-to-uk-breakbulk/

With the first phase of the facility nearing completion, 60,000 square feet will be finished and operational in June. The second phase has already been started, which will increase the footprint by 20,000 square feet. Marshall expects that by the end of 2018, Armitt will have a 120,000 square feet facility in place.

When Armitt was looking for a facility, it considered a number of options around the UK, including Bristol and Southampton, but settled on Thamesport mainly because of its location and the opportunities that the rail facility will bring to the UK steel logistics industry.

I guess we'll see if the usage of the rail facility materialises or not.
 

Freightmaster

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According to a post on the SE gen group - GBRf are due to start running a steel train from Thamesport to the West Midlands later this month. I assume this will be originating at the new Armitt terminal. Will be interesting to see how this develops.

Looks like these are the paths:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BRIRLYH/2017/08/23/0841?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
The proposed terminal at Brierley Hill is quite a way off being ready yet;
I understand that any initial traffic will run to Washwood Heath instead.


On the subject of Thamesport steel, a loaded train from South Wales
ran last night, operated by DB.


NARK
 

BRX

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The proposed terminal at Brierley Hill is quite a way off being ready yet;
I understand that any initial traffic will run to Washwood Heath instead.


On the subject of Thamesport steel, a loaded train from South Wales
ran last night, operated by DB.


NARK

Cheers - is there a regular flow from s wales proposed as well?
 

BRX

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Interesting that the steel, from South Wales by rail, was taken away, BY ROAD, to European destinations!

Really? That's quite a demonstration of the continuing failure of channel tunnel rail freight. Do you know if it was a one off working or intended to become regular?

There was a regular service from Margam through the tunnel until quite recently, I believe.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Really? That's quite a demonstration of the continuing failure of channel tunnel rail freight. Do you know if it was a one off working or intended to become regular?

There was a regular service from Margam through the tunnel until quite recently, I believe.

Think about it - there is more inwards road freight traffic to the London area , a lot less to South Wales - ergo - a backload from that there London to Continental Europe makes more sense than going back with fresh air.

So the railway gets a decent haul to London (Essex) , and the sender gets probably a better service than rail throughout (regrettably) , and the rates will reflect the back loading element of a road vehicle.

Other options might have included direct sea transit from somewhere in the South Wales area , or road throughout (unlikely due to the undesirability of sending a lorry to South Wales empty - to pick up)

SNCF freight have , for all sorts of reasons , hampered UK - Continent railfreight.
 

BRX

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The thamesport/margam working has run again today.
 
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