• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Future of rail freight services to/from Thamesport?

Status
Not open for further replies.

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,638
Until a few months ago there were regular and frequent Freightliner workings to/from Thamesport on the Isle of Grain, Kent, to various destinations around the UK.

However, they came to an end (as I understand it) towards the end of last year as a result of several major shipping lines switching their container services to the new London Gateway terminal on the other side of the Thames (news article here)

Although there are still plenty of paths to and from Thamesport in the new timetable, I've not seen any used yet.

I found this press release which mentions that some new shipping services are coming to Thamesport but maybe these are not on a scale to justify Freightliner operations.

Does anyone know if Freightliner are expected to resume services at any point in the near future?
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

OxtedL

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
23 Mar 2011
Messages
2,572
I don't know how this affects your observations, but presumably freight has been heavily disrupted by the blockade at Gravesend and the lack of nice alternative routes.
 

fergusjbend

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
141
Things don't look good for Thamesport. In fact the last deep sea service (Hapag Lloyd) transferred to Southampton rather than London Gateway, but the result is the same. I think there used to be two services each way a day to Lawley Street and one to Trafford Park, plus a weekly 'wineliner' to Bristol. I think this is now down to a single return trip to Lawley Street. No doubt someone can correct the foregoing.....

The stone traffic to Barden Aggregates at Grain and Brett's at Cliffe remains, so I hope the future of the Hundred of Hoo branch is reasonably secure, but who knows?
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,134
it makes you wonder why they invested so much in London Gateway if there is quite a bit of surplus capacity nearby ,is it all about new ports that are equipped to accommodate the very largest vessels around the world today ?
 
Last edited:

RichmondCommu

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
6,912
Location
Richmond, London
I suspect that the opening of London Gateway won't generate any extra freight traffic for the FOC's, it will simply mean that services are transferred from one port to another.
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
Until a few months ago there were regular and frequent Freightliner workings to/from Thamesport on the Isle of Grain, Kent, to various destinations around the UK.

However, they came to an end (as I understand it) towards the end of last year as a result of several major shipping lines switching their container services to the new London Gateway terminal on the other side of the Thames (news article here)

Although there are still plenty of paths to and from Thamesport in the new timetable, I've not seen any used yet.

I found this press release which mentions that some new shipping services are coming to Thamesport but maybe these are not on a scale to justify Freightliner operations.

Does anyone know if Freightliner are expected to resume services at any point in the near future?

Almost all the shipping services now serving Thamesport are mostly short-sea ones from places like Spain and are hence probably not big users of rail services within the UK. The idea of them being that they serve a large number of local ports with fairly short hauls to or from the end-customer which naturally lends itself to road rather than rail transport. Also the relatively small volumes of containers generated don't lend themselves to rail - it's the deepsea lines putting a large ship into a single UK port like Southampton or Felixstowe that tend to use rail more.


Plus there are issues I believe in handling high-cube 9'6" high containers on the branch to Thamesport and these higher-cube units tend to predominate in short-sea transport.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
Short sea Europe transport requires W12 as they are 10cm wider than Deep Sea containers which can be transported at W10.

This could be a problem for the branch but NR are on with W12 now in a big way with some big new additions to the network being put in over next few months.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,638
I don't know how this affects your observations, but presumably freight has been heavily disrupted by the blockade at Gravesend and the lack of nice alternative routes.

I don't think the blockade is relevant - the services ceased well before that was in place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think there used to be two services each way a day to Lawley Street and one to Trafford Park, plus a weekly 'wineliner' to Bristol. I think this is now down to a single return trip to Lawley Street. No doubt someone can correct the foregoing.....

There are no services at all at the moment, as far as I'm aware.
 

Shimbleshanks

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2012
Messages
1,020
Location
Purley
Short sea Europe transport requires W12 as they are 10cm wider than Deep Sea containers which can be transported at W10.

This could be a problem for the branch but NR are on with W12 now in a big way with some big new additions to the network being put in over next few months.

Yes, if they're using pallet-wide as opposed to standard-width containers. But there is also the height issue for all 9'6" high containers, which I believe can only be carried on the Thamesport branch by using lowliner wagons.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
Yes, if they're using pallet-wide as opposed to standard-width containers. But there is also the height issue for all 9'6" high containers, which I believe can only be carried on the Thamesport branch by using lowliner wagons.

Ah sorry presumed the branch as already W10.
 

cyclebytrain

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2009
Messages
311
This will no doubt be music to the ears of those who want a passenger service back on the line -the last I heard was that there weren't any paths because they were all being used by freight...
 

fergusjbend

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2011
Messages
141
Hmm.. Passenger services on a line that goes from nowhere to nowhere? The population of the Hoo Peninsula is small and scattered and the western end of the line goes to Gravesend, not the Medway towns which would be the natural passenger flow.

It might make a great heritage line though - unless it is concreted over to make an airport.
 

cyclebytrain

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2009
Messages
311
Hmm.. Passenger services on a line that goes from nowhere to nowhere? The population of the Hoo Peninsula is small and scattered and the western end of the line goes to Gravesend, not the Medway towns which would be the natural passenger flow.

It might make a great heritage line though - unless it is concreted over to make an airport.

Don't ask me; I don't understand it either! I just know that there are people who want it and apparently one of the key problems was "all the paths are used for freight"
 

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
709
Thamesport lost it's deep sea container services because it was not able to handle the latest generation of containerships used on the Europe Far East Trade when fully laden as well as changes to partnerships in changes. Hyundai Merchant Marine used to call at the port but switched to Southampton because it's grouping joined another group serving Southampton, leaving Evergreen the sole Far East service. However, with the continuing pressures on rates in in this market, they too decided to join with new partners and returned to Felixstowe effectively leaving Hapag Lloyd's three USA services using considerably smaller vessels as the sole deep sea line. With all these vessels scheduled to arrive/sail over a two/three day period the port allegedly could not operate economically the required 24hrs a day Monday to Saturday that Hapag required forcing it to move these operations to Southampton in October 2013. The port has since handled at least one 10000teu Maersk vessel diverted due to berth congestion at Felixstowe earlier this year at very short notice making the landside distribution of containers difficult because of the lack of train capacity and general shortage of road transport in the area. In the meantime the port has concentrated on short sea services largely at the expense of Tilbury, and mainly serve the south east of England which do not require rail transport.
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,638
Thamesport lost it's deep sea container services because it was not able to handle the latest generation of containerships used on the Europe Far East Trade when fully laden as well as changes to partnerships in changes. Hyundai Merchant Marine used to call at the port but switched to Southampton because it's grouping joined another group serving Southampton, leaving Evergreen the sole Far East service. However, with the continuing pressures on rates in in this market, they too decided to join with new partners and returned to Felixstowe effectively leaving Hapag Lloyd's three USA services using considerably smaller vessels as the sole deep sea line. With all these vessels scheduled to arrive/sail over a two/three day period the port allegedly could not operate economically the required 24hrs a day Monday to Saturday that Hapag required forcing it to move these operations to Southampton in October 2013. The port has since handled at least one 10000teu Maersk vessel diverted due to berth congestion at Felixstowe earlier this year at very short notice making the landside distribution of containers difficult because of the lack of train capacity and general shortage of road transport in the area. In the meantime the port has concentrated on short sea services largely at the expense of Tilbury, and mainly serve the south east of England which do not require rail transport.



Thanks for this explanation.

I wonder what the chances of deep sea lines returning to Thamesport in the future are, say with a general upturn in trade etc meaning other ports become congested?

Or is it likely that the rail connection is doomed now?
 
Last edited:

mister-sparky

Member
Joined
28 Jan 2007
Messages
450
Location
Kent
Apologies if this has already been mentioned,

But isn't the Thamesport area the proposed location for one of the new "garden cities"? And that could be the reason for the dumbing down of the freight and industry around there?
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,638
Someone mentioned the Bristol 'wineliner'. Does this train no long run at all ?
Not from thamesport. Although all lots of paths from thamesport are still in the system I've not seen any of them used in the last six months or so.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,787
Location
Herts
Port usage seems quite "dynamic" - the big 2 of Southampton and Felixstowe "competed" with each other for the big hitters in the industry (lines would transfer from one to another) - Thames Gateeway) has put another competitor in place , rather well placed for short road hauls to the biggest consumer market. This of course puts pressure on well established locations such as Tilbury(which I think was the first place in the UK to deal with the new ISO containers in the mid 1960's), and of course Thamesport - and others will have to compete. Did some work on this last year - and there seems to be a marked overcapacity in the medium range ports , though of course experts in marine matters may have more information.
 

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
709
Thanks for this explanation.

I wonder what the chances of deep sea lines returning to Thamesport in the future are, say with a general upturn in trade etc meaning other ports become congested?

Or is it likely that the rail connection is doomed now?

I would think they are fairly remote at the moment, London Gateway is due to add additional capacity and offers deeper water and has already captured a sizeable proportion of deep sea container traffic previously handled at Tilbury Container Services owned by Forth Port Group. Hutchinson Ports, the owner of Felixstowe and Thamesport is also planning extension of the Suffolk Port but I think has dropped planned to expand at Harwich. Southampton owned by DP World who also own London Gateway continues to add capacity and also has deep water and many existing connections with Europe Far East Services, whilst from the end of next year Liverpool will add it's Liverpool2 terminal enabling 14000 teu vessels to call directly at the port, instead of the present limit of 4000 teu.

Thus apart perhaps from the odd diversion from Felixstowe, I cannot see Thamesport being able to capture regular deep sea container services and it will continue to focus on short sea services.

However, the problem with handling diversion vessels is that very often they are at very short notice and so there is little time for the shipping lines to lay on additional landside capacity to handle the distribution of containers etc. This then causes extreme frustration and additional costs for the logistics chain with the port often getting negative feedback and rather defeats the long term objective of securing the business on permanent basis.
 

Freightmaster

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2009
Messages
3,495
Someone mentioned the Bristol 'wineliner'. Does this train no long run at all ?
Bristol FLT receives two trains a day - one from Felixstowe,
and the other which runs from Tilbury Tuesdays to Fridays
and Southampton on a Saturday.

The Southampton to Bristol train is a direct replacement for
the previous once a week service from Thamesport to Bristol.


MARK
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,576
Bristol FLT receives two trains a day - one from Felixstowe,
and the other which runs from Tilbury Tuesdays to Fridays
and Southampton on a Saturday.

The Southampton to Bristol train is a direct replacement for
the previous once a week service from Thamesport to Bristol.


MARK

Thanks.

Another question.

Are Freightliner and EWS's services from London Gateway new to rail or is it business that has shifted from Felixstowe etc ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would think they are fairly remote at the moment, London Gateway is due to add additional capacity and offers deeper water and has already captured a sizeable proportion of deep sea container traffic previously handled at Tilbury Container Services owned by Forth Port Group. Hutchinson Ports, the owner of Felixstowe and Thamesport is also planning extension of the Suffolk Port but I think has dropped planned to expand at Harwich. Southampton owned by DP World who also own London Gateway continues to add capacity and also has deep water and many existing connections with Europe Far East Services, whilst from the end of next year Liverpool will add it's Liverpool2 terminal enabling 14000 teu vessels to call directly at the port, instead of the present limit of 4000 teu.

Thus apart perhaps from the odd diversion from Felixstowe, I cannot see Thamesport being able to capture regular deep sea container services and it will continue to focus on short sea services.

sis.


How many intermodal trains are there out of Liverpool each day ?
 

Freightmaster

Established Member
Joined
7 Jul 2009
Messages
3,495
Thanks.

Another question.

Are Freightliner and EWS's services from London Gateway new to rail or is it business that has shifted from Felixstowe etc ?
The twice-weekly DB trains to Trafford Park and Wakefield
are both new to rail, but the Freightliner trains/portions
from Gateway are running in place of previous Tilbury flows.


MARK
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
29,211
The twice-weekly DB trains to Trafford Park and Wakefield
are both new to rail, but the Freightliner trains/portions
from Gateway are running in place of previous Tilbury flows.


MARK

I know it's early days, but 2 trains a week is hardly an earth shattering increase, and nowhere near the 20+ trains a day each way promised after a few years.
 

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
709
Thanks.

Another question.

Are Freightliner and EWS's services from London Gateway new to rail or is it business that has shifted from Felixstowe etc ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



How many intermodal trains are there out of Liverpool each day ?

None, but there are on going discussions about restoring some especially when Liverpool2 opens and volumes increase further. Evergreen incidentally are introducing their own feeder service from Rotterdam to Liverpool joining MSC and CMA-CGM who already operate their own tonnage from Antwerp and Le Havre respectively. MSC use a 2000 teu vessel, whilst CMA use a 800 teu vessel. BG Freight Lines operate at least two sailing a week from Rotterdam to Liverpool using 800 teu vessels and this is addition to direct calls by existing services. The reason for the lack of rail of rail distribution from Liverpool is mainly due to the fact that most of the ports hinterland is within 150 miles which makes rail transport of containers less attractive, whereas Felixstowe and Southampton have further distances to travel to reach the industrial areas of the UK making rail transport more competitive.
 

daccer

Member
Joined
11 Feb 2009
Messages
371
As we seem to have a couple of well informed posters on this thread maybe I can ask a couple of questions of my own with regards to intermodal traffic in the UK.

Has the gauge clearance work seen an increase in volumes being moved? How many 9'6' boxes are actually coming through UK ports as a percentage and can this traffic ever justify the costs that have been incurred in increasing the work?

Is there any chances of London gateway being used as a single European stop for the largest vessels or will they always multi stop with say a Rotterdam or Hamburg as well. I know that DBS were tasked with exploring options for using the tunnel for distributing traffic from Gateway but this wont happen if vessels are also dropping into European ports also.

Lastly railfreight is growing rapidly in the UK but intermodal is flat. Is it just lagging behind the bulk commodities or is there a deeper malaise? it was expected that intermodal traffic would be the driver for railfreight growth going forward but as yet it has not done so.
 

muddythefish

On Moderation
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
1,576
None, but there are on going discussions about restoring some especially when Liverpool2 opens and volumes increase further. Evergreen incidentally are introducing their own feeder service from Rotterdam to Liverpool joining MSC and CMA-CGM who already operate their own tonnage from Antwerp and Le Havre respectively. MSC use a 2000 teu vessel, whilst CMA use a 800 teu vessel. BG Freight Lines operate at least two sailing a week from Rotterdam to Liverpool using 800 teu vessels and this is addition to direct calls by existing services. The reason for the lack of rail of rail distribution from Liverpool is mainly due to the fact that most of the ports hinterland is within 150 miles which makes rail transport of containers less attractive, whereas Felixstowe and Southampton have further distances to travel to reach the industrial areas of the UK making rail transport more competitive.

Felixstowe -Birmingham and Soton - Brum can't be alot more than 150 miles surely? Liverpool must be an opportunity for Cumbria-based DRS.Didn't DRS also have plans to develop container services from Whitehaven ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As we seem to have a couple of well informed posters on this thread maybe I can ask a couple of questions of my own with regards to intermodal traffic in the UK.

Has the gauge clearance work seen an increase in volumes being moved? How many 9'6' boxes are actually coming through UK ports as a percentage and can this traffic ever justify the costs that have been incurred in increasing the work?

Is there any chances of London gateway being used as a single European stop for the largest vessels or will they always multi stop with say a Rotterdam or Hamburg as well. I know that DBS were tasked with exploring options for using the tunnel for distributing traffic from Gateway but this wont happen if vessels are also dropping into European ports also.

Lastly railfreight is growing rapidly in the UK but intermodal is flat. Is it just lagging behind the bulk commodities or is there a deeper malaise? it was expected that intermodal traffic would be the driver for railfreight growth going forward but as yet it has not done so.

Intermodal needs double tracking from Felixstowe plus more paths from Southampton. Rail's share from both ports is only around 30 per cent so there's plenty to go for.

More inland terminals would help too. What happened to Donnington and Telford ?
 
Last edited:

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
709
Felixstowe -Birmingham and Soton - Brum can't be alot more than 150 miles surely? Liverpool must be an opportunity for Cumbria-based DRS.Didn't DRS also have plans to develop container services from Whitehaven ?

Birmingham is actually nearer Liverpool, depending on actual points, but if you take the A14 junction with M6 and M1 just to the north east of Rugby, that is 130 miles from Liverpool, Felixstowe is 143 miles and Southampton is 137 miles according to Google maps. Anything further north is obviously closer to Liverpool. A recent report by the Liverpool City Region Local Enterprise Partnership contains a detailed analysis of Superport with is the combined Liverpool2 development, plus the rest of the Port of Liverpool and Manchester Ship Canal. This analysis is attached in pdf format or can be accessed at the following link. http://www.liverpoollep.org/pdf/SUPERPORTlowres.pdf

I did hear some time ago of a plan to develop container facilities at Whitehaven but the big problem is the port is tidal, so there is only a small window to berth the ship, discharge and load and get out otherwise the ship sits on the mud till the next tide. Apart from being dangerous, if containers are stowed on deck any delays could have a considerable knock on effect on what could be a fairly tight schedule.
 

Attachments

  • SUPERPORTlowres.pdf
    1.5 MB · Views: 0

Wavertreelad

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
709
As we seem to have a couple of well informed posters on this thread maybe I can ask a couple of questions of my own with regards to intermodal traffic in the UK.

Has the gauge clearance work seen an increase in volumes being moved? How many 9'6' boxes are actually coming through UK ports as a percentage and can this traffic ever justify the costs that have been incurred in increasing the work?

Is there any chances of London gateway being used as a single European stop for the largest vessels or will they always multi stop with say a Rotterdam or Hamburg as well. I know that DBS were tasked with exploring options for using the tunnel for distributing traffic from Gateway but this wont happen if vessels are also dropping into European ports also.

Lastly railfreight is growing rapidly in the UK but intermodal is flat. Is it just lagging behind the bulk commodities or is there a deeper malaise? it was expected that intermodal traffic would be the driver for railfreight growth going forward but as yet it has not done so.

The 9'6" question is difficult to answer because I suspect their may not be any accurate figures although in theory they may be available from the Department for Transport as the different sizes of unit load will be collected from the main port inventory systems. However, this all depends if they separate out separate unit load types whilst the ports themselves will have the information but for confidentiality reasons are unlikely to reveal them. Instead most reveal their tonnages in TEU terms, although uniquely Liverpool traditionally has only released figures in number of containers format. This is largely due to the fact that the North American market is mainly 40ft units because of road weight restrictions in most states being limited to 80000lbs all up which is about 36.5 tonnes without special permits, and because the axle restrictions favour 40ft trailers. My best guess is about 50% of all 40ft containers are now 9'6" but it will vary by trade and shipping line depending on whether the pricing is the same or not. According to World Bank figures the total movement of containers through UK Ports in 2013 was about 9.2 million, but this includes transhipment traffic which could result in containers being counted twice and would not usually move inland.

How you measure the additional cost is equally difficult, as without the gauge enhancements, the rail industry would either have to invest in huge numbers
of low height rolling stock or allow the road industry to gain a stranglehold over this business with all the knock on effects that this would result in. It should be also be remember that the trend is towards 40ft HC (9'6) containers often being the standard equipment in some global trades.

London Gateway is never likely to become a sole European hub port for several reasons. The population of the UK is about 60 million, which is about 20 million less than Germany, 4 million less than France and about double the combined population of the Netherlands and Belgium, but Hamburg, Bremerhaven, Rotterdam and Antwerp all serve larger hinterlands. German ports tend to act as hubs for the Baltic states and Scandinavia, whilst Rotterdam and Antwerp serve countries to the East and south so there four ports are always likely to be hubs. Felixstowe, London Gateway and Southampton all suffer the risk of having port calls cut if a vessel is likely to be delayed as the operator will then discharge containers at one of the European hubs and feeder the cargo back to the UK, the problem rarely happens in Liverpool, as apart from high winds from the north west at certain times of the year the port is not usually subject to bad weather even though the North Atlantic can be challenging for maintaining schedule. No single UK or even group of Ports could handle the combined volumes of the mainland European ports and no ship owner would ever consider adopting this as a way forward, and the increasing size of vessels, now 18000 teu in some cases restricts the choice anyway. Maersk who operate this size vessel already cannot operate them fully laden because not all European Ports have the depth of water available so they are being operated at about 14000 teu capacity. With ship builders already developing plans for 20000 teu plus the number of options will reduce, but I very much doubt the London Gateway will be the last port left.

As for DBS distributing via the Chunnel, it will never happen because of the restrictions on hazardous cargo and the inability to move open top and out of gauge containers which will still need to be feeder by sea. Furthermore, for the reasons above, there is more danger of the UK in the long term becoming loosing direct calls on some trades if vessels of 20000 teu plus are introduced.

Getting back slightly on topic, there is also another reason why Thamesport is unlikely to use the rail network for the short sea traffic it is currently handling and concentrating on which are generally from Iberia and thus similar to the movements through Liverpool. One of the interesting characteristics of this trade is the use of 45 high cube containers, which are also 2.50mtrs wide. Apart from dry vans there are also a considerable number of reefer containers in operation which are favoured because two Euro pallets can be loaded alongside each other and thus the capacity is similar to a road trailer. As the shipping line provides multiple sailing a week from Bilbao, they offer advantages over road freight which cannot move through France over the weekends due to their driving restrictions and are generally much more expensive and also subject to disruption. These units are not normally used in the deep sea trades to and from Europe, although 45ft HC containers are used in the Asia and US trade but they are 2.40mtrs wide variety so whilst all 45ft containers are fitted with 40ft twist lock spacings, there could be issues with clearances in some cases.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top