Future of Royal Mail Class 325 units?

[Skimpot flyer]

Can anyone confirm a rumour that Royal Mail are planning to replace their ageing fleet of Class 325 EMUs ? I've heard it said that they have ordered new rolling stock and are proposing to expand the number of services they run in 2023

 

[Bob Price]

Be interesting if they do. Knowing there are a batch of 321's which Varamis have shown can be converted, it may be more cost effective than buying new.

 

[DanNCL]

I haven’t heard any suggestions that the 325s are to be replaced.

The logical option if they are to be replaced is to use the 379s. Not the best use of those units but it the DFT won’t let them go to GTR then the choice for the 379s is basically that or scrap.

Be interesting if they do. Knowing there are a batch of 321's which Varamis have shown can be converted, it may be more cost effective than buying new.

The 321s are older than the 325s, hardly going to pick them if the reason for replacing the 325s is because they’re ‘too old’!

 

[ExRes]

Do they really need to 'replace' units that were only delivered in 1996? after the last few 'conversion' attempts they would need their heads testing to do anything other than order a new fleet based on existing units, basically as they did with the 325

 

[Domh245]

I haven’t heard any suggestions that the 325s are to be replaced.

The logical option if they are to be replaced is to use the 379s. Not the best use of those units but it the DFT won’t let them go to GTR then the choice for the 379s is basically that or scrap.


The 321s are older than the 325s, hardly going to pick them if the reason for replacing the 325s is because they’re ‘too old’!

379s are logical for Macquarie, but not necessarily for RM/DBC

Depends on what is the limiting bit of 'too old' kit - there's a load of recently released 321s with fairly new traction equipment underneath, newer than the 379s indeed! I'd also think that the 321s would be a lot easier to convert than the 379s, as well as an element of the conversion being one way only - once you've turned a 379 into a postal unit you can't (easily) turn it back into a passenger unit a few years down the line for example. I would also expect that the relative simplicity of the 321s may appeal over a 379

Do they really need to 'replace' units that were only delivered in 1996? after the last few 'conversion' attempts they would need their heads testing to do anything other than order a new fleet based on existing units, basically as they did with the 325

If they are becoming problematic (which certainly isn't out of the question for fleets with lots of electronics from that era!) and it is easier/cheaper to obtain new units then replacement is logical. I would anticipate that "conversion" here would be limited to removing seats and fitting shutters in place of door pockets, no need to start putting diesel engines under things which is where things have usually gone wrong with modern conversions. Effectively a glorified and particularly passenger-unfriendly refurbishment

 

[ExRes]

379s are logical for Macquarie, but not necessarily for RM/DBC

Depends on what is the limiting bit of 'too old' kit - there's a load of recently released 321s with fairly new traction equipment underneath, newer than the 379s indeed! I'd also think that the 321s would be a lot easier to convert than the 379s, as well as an element of the conversion being one way only - once you've turned a 379 into a postal unit you can't (easily) turn it back into a passenger unit a few years down the line for example. I would also expect that the relative simplicity of the 321s may appeal over a 379



If they are becoming problematic (which certainly isn't out of the question for fleets with lots of electronics from that era!) and it is easier/cheaper to obtain new units then replacement is logical. I would anticipate that "conversion" here would be limited to removing seats and fitting shutters in place of door pockets, no need to start putting diesel engines under things which is where things have usually gone wrong with modern conversions. Effectively a glorified and particularly passenger-unfriendly refurbishment

Of course the irony is that 325s were built to be converted to passenger units with relative ease if no longer needed for mail

 

[D365]

Given that the 325s are due to be fitted with ETCS this decade, one would have thought there’s a few years in them left.

 

[RobShipway]

Could it not be that Royal Mail are looking for extra stock, rather than replacement stock for the class 325 units?

For some this may seem illogical, but could it be that Royal Mail are looking for trains that are Electric/Battery/diesel trains, in which case they are possibly looking at new trains, possibly the Hydrogen version of Alstom's Aventra trains?

 

[43096]

379s are logical for Macquarie, but not necessarily for RM/DBC

Macquarie? It’s getting in for three years since Akiem acquired Macquarie’s European rail leasing business.

 

[D365]

Could it not be that Royal Mail are looking for extra stock, rather than replacement stock for the class 325 units?

For some this may seem illogical, but could it be that Royal Mail are looking for trains that are Electric/Battery/diesel trains, in which case they are possibly looking at new trains, possibly the Hydrogen version of Alstom's Aventra trains?

Until Vivarail's unfortunate demise, I would have suggested the possibility of battery Class 321 conversions.

 

[zwk500]

Can anyone confirm a rumour that Royal Mail are planning to replace their ageing fleet of Class 325 EMUs ? I've heard it said that they have ordered new rolling stock and are proposing to expand the number of services they run in 2023

Do you have a link to an announcement?

 

[popeter45]

To an extent I feel locomotive hauled carriages would be a better option than EMUs as mail trains don't benefit from what EMUs provide in terms of quick turn around, what's left of the mark 2/3/4 fleets?, Can't see much difficulty in converting them for mail?

 

[zwk500]

To an extent I feel locomotive hauled carriages would be a better option than EMUs as mail trains don't benefit from what EMUs provide in terms of quick turn around,

Loco haul require runrounds though, and that increases the staffing costs.

what's left of the mark 2/3/4 fleets?, Can't see much difficulty in converting them for mail?

Mk2s/3s are pretty much gone, Mk4s are either gone or reallocated already.

The 325s were designed to be hauled by locos when required, but the relative scarcity of such movements suggests that loco-hauled operation isn't favoured.

 

[D365]

To an extent I feel locomotive hauled carriages would be a better option than EMUs as mail trains don't benefit from what EMUs provide in terms of quick turn around, what's left of the mark 2/3/4 fleets?, Can't see much difficulty in converting them for mail?

Mk3-based EMUs are, in effect, locomotives with three trailer cars.

Further to the point, end door stock wouldn't be suitable for quick loading/unloading of Yorks.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Do you have a link to an announcement?

No. I’m asking the question because there’s been no announcement, yet this rumour has been circulating in my (RM) office for a week or more.
My contention is that Royal Mail would probably need extra units, to run more services

 

[matt]

There was talk of more services running to the new Royal Mail terminal at DIRFT (Daventry International Railfreight Terminal) so this will probably need more units.

 

[Grumpy]

Will the demise of the 319’s affect parts availability for the 325?

 

[zwk500]

Will the demise of the 319’s affect parts availability for the 325?

Some of the 319s may find themselves as spares donors, I imagine (or they'll have the parts recovered before the bodyshells are scrapped). However they could also overhaul the traction equipment on the 325s.

 

[Bald Rick]

To an extent I feel locomotive hauled carriages would be a better option than EMUs as mail trains don't benefit from what EMUs provide in terms of quick turn around, what's left of the mark 2/3/4 fleets?, Can't see much difficulty in converting them for mail?

what is the benefit of loco haulage?

 

[popeter45]

what is the benefit of loco haulage?

its more about the disadvantages with regard to freight such as reduced cargo space due to motive euqipment, fixed length reducing operation flexability and replaceabaility if a carriage has a issue
also with a carriage you can get more creative with structure such as VGA wagon style full side opening or even removable pods akin to TEU containers
would you suggest moving intermodal to EMU's?

 

[Bald Rick]

its more about the disadvantages with regard to freight such as reduced cargo space due to motive euqipment,

Compare any EMU with any train with a loco on it, and compare the % of space of the whole train above solebar level available for the carriage of goods.

fixed length reducing operation flexability and replaceabaility if a carriage has a issue

That is rarely an issue. It would be even less of an issue for a parcels EMU than a passenger EMU as there’s fewer things to go wrong (and no passengers to throw up in them).

Almost all container trains are formed of ‘multiple wagon’ sets, and it’s not a problem for them.

also with a carriage you can get more creative with structure such as VGA wagon style full side opening or even removable pods akin to TEU containers

A haulage’s carriage is no different to an EMU carriage in what can be done ’creatively’

would you suggest moving intermodal to EMU's?

No, as they are much longer and heavier than parcels trains.

 

[ExRes]

To an extent I feel locomotive hauled carriages would be a better option than EMUs as mail trains don't benefit from what EMUs provide in terms of quick turn around, what's left of the mark 2/3/4 fleets?, Can't see much difficulty in converting them for mail?

Speaking from over 5 years of mail train experience I can assure you that the 325s were streets ahead of loco hauled for ease of use, no train regardless of length required more than one driver whereas loco hauled required a minimum of a driver and shunter to run round or more than one driver if the train arrived at a terminal, at the PRDC most trains had a PCV which meant two drivers for every train arriving and departing. Converting coaches to vans requires the sealing off of end doors and all windows and the fitting of shutter doors for loading, it may not be difficult to do but I would imagine the cost would be quite high. Not a problem now of course but I was told in 1995 that consideration had been given to Res having a fleet of Class 43s for conversion to TPOs but the weight was too much for the coaches to make it a viable proposition

 

[Energy]

For some this may seem illogical, but could it be that Royal Mail are looking for trains that are Electric/Battery/diesel trains, in which case they are possibly looking at new trains, possibly the Hydrogen version of Alstom's Aventra trains?

Nope. New trains would be expensive when there are a load of ex-GA EMUs around. Putting some batteries underneath on the non-motor coaches wouldn't be too difficult, other than that the mods are removing the seats, adding the fixings for freight and changing the doors to roller ones. Going for a new build specialised MU for parcels would be difficult unless Royal Mail were doing a lot more by rail.

The logical option if they are to be replaced is to use the 379s. Not the best use of those units but it the DFT won’t let them go to GTR then the choice for the 379s is basically that or scrap.

Huh? Converting the 379s to railfreight is quite a big undertaking for Akiem and can't be easily undone if the DfT wants more stock in a few years, and 30 trains for Royal Mail would be a big increase. 321s would be easier to convert while keeping 379s in storage for a couple years would make more sense.

 

[Bob Price]

Don't forget Varamis Rail are operating a converted 321 on a daily basis building up a small gooda business between Birmingham and Scotland. RDG also had a 319 and a 769 converted and running around Christmas. So who knows what might happen with conversation, however a new stock order would be welcome at CAF.

 

[Snow1964]

I suspect they are looking at extra trains for parcels, or second class Mail, something to bulk move the carts. My guess is that HGV driver pay having allegedly jumped since covid, means running multiple trucks on same routes every day has caused a rethink.

So an EMU conversion with doors replaced by shutters, seats removed and a solid floor laid is probably what they want. Maybe a metal frame to stop cages rolling around, or some punched metal plates fixed inside across the windows for security. I wouldn't rule out changing number of cars from 4 to 3 or even 5 if something else can be found to stretch a unit.

There remains a number of district mail centres adjacent to rail lines, and some even have direct bridge access.

 

[Bob Price]

I remember seeing the Varamis unit being shown and they mentioned they had to add a load of ballast to compensate for the fittings taken out

 

[D365]

I remember seeing the Varamis unit being shown and they mentioned they had to add a load of ballast to compensate for the fittings taken out

perhaps that’s where a 321 battery conversion could come into its own.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

DB Cargo are hoping they will be winning the contract along with the associated extra Daventry - Scotland stuff.

That said, nobody could say with certainty whether the existing London - Warrington and London - Warrington - Scotland trains would just stop at Daventry on the way, or if they would require new services in their own right.

As it stands, you only have a daily through 12 car between Willesden and Scotland, with an extra Willesden to Scotland (and vice versa) that officially changes headcodes and service at Warrington each way. That, and the daily Low Fell. If Low Fell is still a 4 car, that’s 2 units used on that. They may still also do an in-fill Warrington to Shieldmuir extra if parcel volumes require.

DB predicated their whole thing on a few 321s being added, and converted, to be able to provide the extra capacity needed. I don’t think Royal Mail had planned to buy these. But if Daventry is going to be extra, you will definitely need more units. It’s just counting, not least when you add in the needs to maintain and move stuff onto/off the Low Fell diagrams.

 

[furnessvale]

No, as they are much longer and heavier than parcels trains.

It has been done.

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