Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[InkyScrolls]

Do many people do Scotland-Lancaster-Leeds at all (genuine question) and then go forward to somewhere with only an hourly service?
Lancaster-Leeds(xx37/54)-Hull looks the only risky connection to me.


I can't see Bentham ever warranting an hourly service, and even Carlisle is only busy at limited times (much though I would like a fast to Glasgow via the GSW....).

Perhaps 0719-0849-0949-1119 to Carlisle would work if an extra train is justified?

Quite a few in my (anecdotal) experience use the Bentham line as a link southwards (or northwards), but an hourly service would almost certainly be a waste of resources.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite a few in my (anecdotal) experience use the Bentham line as a link southwards (or northwards), but an hourly service would almost certainly be a waste of resources.

My general leaning would be towards:

1. Separate Morecambe as part of moving to a half hourly clockface service (or as close to it as the WCML and the need to run a couple of trains to Heysham allow) and brand it up, market it etc with a dedicated 3-car 150 formation. I'll give the railway a brand for free - "The Bay Metro" - do it in association with the new Eden Project if that gets built.

2. Go 2 hourly clockface on the S&C and Bentham - clockface hourly from Leeds alternating which way they turn at Hellfield. Prioritise Bentham in terms of commuter timings as the S&C is a lesser demand in this regard.

3. Add a couple of peak extras if that clockface timetable doesn't quite work for demand.

 

[InkyScrolls]

What are the major issues in raising the linespeed on SOME of the line? Excluding bridges and viaducts that may have a speed restriction (including a restriction of the current linespeed). Would signalling for example be a substantial problem raising it?

The main issue at the moment is signal spacing; the distants are not sufficiently far to give service braking distance for laden goods trains.

My general leaning would be towards:

1. Separate Morecambe as part of moving to a half hourly clockface service (or as close to it as the WCML and the need to run a couple of trains to Heysham allow) and brand it up, market it etc with a dedicated 3-car 150 formation. I'll give the railway a brand for free - "The Bay Metro" - do it in association with the new Eden Project if that gets built.

2. Go 2 hourly clockface on the S&C and Bentham - clockface hourly from Leeds alternating which way they turn at Hellfield. Prioritise Bentham in terms of commuter timings as the S&C is a lesser demand in this regard.

3. Add a couple of peak extras if that clockface timetable doesn't quite work for demand.

That sounds ideal to me; I'll have a fiddle with timetable planning and see what I can come up with.

 

[Ken H]

My general leaning would be towards:

1. Separate Morecambe as part of moving to a half hourly clockface service (or as close to it as the WCML and the need to run a couple of trains to Heysham allow) and brand it up, market it etc with a dedicated 3-car 150 formation. I'll give the railway a brand for free - "The Bay Metro" - do it in association with the new Eden Project if that gets built.

2. Go 2 hourly clockface on the S&C and Bentham - clockface hourly from Leeds alternating which way they turn at Hellfield. Prioritise Bentham in terms of commuter timings as the S&C is a lesser demand in this regard.

3. Add a couple of peak extras if that clockface timetable doesn't quite work for demand.

Go stand on settle station at 0730. Rammed with commuters and students.

 

[Bovverboy]

The main issue at the moment is signal spacing; the distants are not sufficiently far to give service braking distance for laden goods trains.

My post follows:

What's wrong with having a differential between speed limits for passenger/goods, or DMU/loco hauled? It's not a new concept.

 

[yorksrob]

When I visited Ribblehead I was the only passenger who alighted there but there were many people who had driven to the Ribblehead car park boasting of going under the viaduct, to which I replied that it’s designed for you to go over it! Quite a large potential for modal shift at Ribblehead.

No, but if I did I would insist that all food and ales are delivered exclusively by rail and not by road, which would necessitate the running of a dedicated train.

I thought Network Rail were intending to increase the line speed to to 90mph with a view to CrossCountry providing a Leeds - Glasgow beating connections via Manchester, Preston, Lancaster, Newcastle or Edinburgh. Any increase has maintenance implications but also favourable journey time implications for passengers.

The Midland is actually the newest route to Scotland and so should have the straightest and fastest alignment, beating the WCML and ECML if it was suitably upgraded with electrification.

I've often seen crowds of walkers waiting at Ribblehead to catch the train back. That said, there are always plenty of cars parked up near the main road as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've often seen crowds of walkers waiting at Ribblehead to catch the train back. That said, there are always plenty of cars parked up near the main road as well.

The railway is fairly handy for doing linear walks, not just for going all the way by train, to be fair.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The railway is fairly handy for doing linear walks, not just for going all the way by train, to be fair.

Indeed. Have previously done Horton-in-Ribblesdale -> Dent by rail, walking back from Dent to Ribblehead via the Dales Way, before catching the afternoon train towards Leeds and then alighting when back at Horton. Fairly busy at Ribblehead on what was a fine, sunny day.

 

[507020]

My thinking is that you maintain 1tp2h to Carlisle/Morecambe from Leeds, supplemented with 1tp2h from Skipton to Carlisle/Lancaster if patronage was high enough. If paths are available south of Skipton, then extend the extra Carlisle service to Bardford FS.

Why only from Yorkshire? If there was an hourly service it should be from west side destinations via Clitheroe. You could also run a direct Manchester - Morecambe via Hellifield.

The main issue at the moment is signal spacing; the distants are not sufficiently far to give service braking distance for laden goods trains.

Surely the increase would only be used by passenger trains, not laden goods trains.

I've often seen crowds of walkers waiting at Ribblehead to catch the train back. That said, there are always plenty of cars parked up near the main road as well.

That’s quite good news.

 

[30907]

The railway is fairly handy for doing linear walks, not just for going all the way by train, to be fair.

and they all tend to end up at Ribblehead for some obscure reason

 

[Bletchleyite]

and they all tend to end up at Ribblehead for some obscure reason

There's a fancy bridge to look at and a pub as well as free parking. What's not to like?

 

[Bovverboy]

Precisely. Northern is bottom of the WCML pecking order and if any trains are delayed (almost always the case) they will receive priority. It is rare indeed (in my experience) to leave Lancaster on time if there's a Morecambe section involved, as a return trip from Leeds to Morecambe involves crossing the WCML at least four times, three of them due to the Morecambe part.

I reckon a train doing Leeds to Morecambe and return needs to cross the WCML four times (not 'at least' four times) and that, of those four, only two are necessary for the Morecambe section.
Splitting the service at Lancaster would not reduce the total number of WCML crossings, so overall punctuality could be improved just the same by simply increasing dwell times at Lancaster and Morecambe.
Splitting at Lancaster wouldn't achieve anything, overall.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I reckon a train doing Leeds to Morecambe and return needs to cross the WCML four times (not 'at least' four times) and that, of those four, only two are necessary for the Morecambe section.
Splitting the service at Lancaster would not reduce the total number of WCML crossings, so overall punctuality could be improved just the same by simply increasing dwell times at Lancaster and Morecambe.
Splitting at Lancaster wouldn't achieve anything, overall.

It'd allow a tidier timetable and the use of a branded unit. I think there's lots of marketing potential if/when Eden Project opens. The station is very near the site.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I reckon a train doing Leeds to Morecambe and return needs to cross the WCML four times (not 'at least' four times) and that, of those four, only two are necessary for the Morecambe section.
Splitting the service at Lancaster would not reduce the total number of WCML crossings, so overall punctuality could be improved just the same by simply increasing dwell times at Lancaster and Morecambe.
Splitting at Lancaster wouldn't achieve anything, overall.

Thank you for correcting my maths; I've just gone from early to late shifts and I'm rather tired!

I reckon a train doing Leeds to Morecambe and return needs to cross the WCML four times (not 'at least' four times) and that, of those four, only two are necessary for the Morecambe section.
Splitting the service at Lancaster would not reduce the total number of WCML crossings, so overall punctuality could be improved just the same by simply increasing dwell times at Lancaster and Morecambe.
Splitting at Lancaster wouldn't achieve anything, overall.

Splitting the service would improve the punctuality of the Leeds section though, which is arguably the most important, as paths are hard to come by beyond Skipton.

 

[XAM2175]

The Midland is actually the newest route to Scotland and so should have the straightest and fastest alignment, beating the WCML and ECML if it was suitably upgraded with electrification.

You don't actually believe this, do you?

 

[YorksLad12]

Why only from Yorkshire? If there was an hourly service it should be from west side destinations via Clitheroe. You could also run a direct Manchester - Morecambe via Hellifield.

Why only Yorkshire? Because I'm from Yorkshire.

But if you insist... how about Leeds-Settle-Carlisle, Bradford-Settle-Carlisle, Leeds-Lancaster-Morecambe, ***-Hellifield-Lancaster(-Morecambe)? Really, I'm thinking that if there were more regular and reliable services, the walkers might make more use of them and reduce car travel into the, er, YORKSHIRE Dales ( ). It's a pipe dream, I know, especially with the WCML crossings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why only Yorkshire? Because I'm from Yorkshire.

But if you insist... how about Leeds-Settle-Carlisle, Bradford-Settle-Carlisle, Leeds-Lancaster-Morecambe, ***-Hellifield-Lancaster(-Morecambe)? Really, I'm thinking that if there were more regular and reliable services, the walkers might make more use of them and reduce car travel into the, er, YORKSHIRE Dales ( ). It's a pipe dream, I know, especially with the WCML crossings.

Walkers generally want "out early back late" so promoting certain services under the DalesRail brand might help.

 

[YorksLad12]

Walkers generally want "out early back late" so promoting certain services under the DalesRail brand might help.

So... peak flows (and branding) then? Dedicated units, perhaps, with space for bikes and rucksacks?

I think the route needs more than it has, but a full hourly service from Leeds would be overkill, I'd agree. Leeds/Bradford to Skipton is a different market than the Beyond Skipton one, but we always seen to combine the two.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Surely the increase would only be used by passenger trains, not laden goods trains.

In all likelihood yes, but Network Rail has to assume that a freight train could be doing maximum linespeed, even if it is unlikely to do so in practice.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The Midland is actually the newest route to Scotland and so should have the straightest and fastest alignment, beating the WCML and ECML if it was suitably upgraded with electrification.

That sounds nice in theory, but I think even at the best of times, false in practice - and the Leeds to Settle Jcn bit was not "newer" in any case (remember, PSRs at Shipley, Keighley, Skipton and Settle Jcn, and I've probably forgotten a few).

Nonetheless, it was, generally, a 90 mph railway, and - I'd need to check the trainling loads, but Appleby - Carlisle non-stop could be done with a Midland Compound in 30 mins non-stop. It was, of course, downhill almost all the way.

So, if you could life the line speed to even 80 mph, a limited stop 158 (Skipton - Settle - Appleby - Carlisle) should be able to do that stretch in, what, 90 (?) minutes instead of the current 120 with all stations. That would give you something like 2 hr 10 mins Leeds - Carlisle. Most trains take 2 hr 40 or so right now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So... peak flows (and branding) then? Dedicated units, perhaps, with space for bikes and rucksacks?

I think the route needs more than it has, but a full hourly service from Leeds would be overkill, I'd agree. Leeds/Bradford to Skipton is a different market than the Beyond Skipton one, but we always seen to combine the two.

It would make a lot of sense for the S&C to have dedicated, branded units with say 8-10 cycle spaces and lots of luggage space, yes. As it's all 15x, you could do a ScotRail with some 153s, fitting them with bike spaces and First Class. Are any still going spare?

 

[507020]

You don't actually believe this, do you?

Surely the Midland Railway had access to decades of engineering advances by the time the line was extended from Settle Junction, that were not a luxury afforded by the Lancaster and Carlisle Railway or the builders of the ECML (I must admit I am not aware of the original schemes that comprised the North Eastern Railway but I am aware that the North Western Railway is not as new and neither is the middle of the Midland Main Line around Derby)

Why only Yorkshire? Because I'm from Yorkshire.

But if you insist... how about Leeds-Settle-Carlisle, Bradford-Settle-Carlisle, Leeds-Lancaster-Morecambe, ***-Hellifield-Lancaster(-Morecambe)? Really, I'm thinking that if there were more regular and reliable services, the walkers might make more use of them and reduce car travel into the, er, YORKSHIRE Dales ( ). It's a pipe dream, I know, especially with the WCML crossings.

There must be equally as many people as you who are from Lancashire and equally want access to Hellifield the Settle - Carlisle line.

I don’t understand why Bradford would have priority for a 2nd service when passengers can easily change at Skipton from an electric service, while passengers from all west side destinations must go all the way to Leeds with no service north of Clitheroe.

In all likelihood yes, but Network Rail has to assume that a freight train could be doing maximum linespeed, even if it is unlikely to do so in practice.

Why not increase the line speed to 90 over 60? Then a freight train couldn’t possibly be affected by any linespeed increase, but a passenger train could make use of it.

That sounds nice in theory, but I think even at the best of times, false in practice - and the Leeds to Settle Jcn bit was not "newer" in any case (remember, PSRs at Shipley, Keighley, Skipton and Settle Jcn, and I've probably forgotten a few).

Nonetheless, it was, generally, a 90 mph railway, and - I'd need to check the trainling loads, but Appleby - Carlisle non-stop could be done with a Midland Compound in 30 mins non-stop. It was, of course, downhill almost all the way.

So, if you could life the line speed to even 80 mph, a limited stop 158 (Skipton - Settle - Appleby - Carlisle) should be able to do that stretch in, what, 90 (?) minutes instead of the current 120 with all stations. That would give you something like 2 hr 10 mins Leeds - Carlisle. Most trains take 2 hr 40 or so right now.

I would like to know the actual design speed of the Settle - Carlisle line compared to other sections of the Midland Main Line, competing main lines and present day permissible speeds. On any section of 125mph, a lot more is being squeezed out of the infrastructure than was originally envisaged.

The Midland line certainly had the same capacity and upgradeability potential as both the WCML and ECML, but is not exploited north of Skipton.

 

[The Planner]

In all likelihood yes, but Network Rail has to assume that a freight train could be doing maximum linespeed, even if it is unlikely to do so in practice.

You need to elaborate here a bit, we would model what it could achieve and wouldn't assume it could do linespeed unless its possible to do so.

 

[Bevan Price]

There used to be a Carlisle to Leeds service just before 12:00, which always seemed quite well loaded when I used it (with a rover). For some reason, it was retimed circa 2018/2019, leaving an almost 3 hour gap (10:58 to 13:40) in the southbound service.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

My general leaning would be towards:

1. Separate Morecambe as part of moving to a half hourly clockface service (or as close to it as the WCML and the need to run a couple of trains to Heysham allow) and brand it up, market it etc with a dedicated 3-car 150 formation. I'll give the railway a brand for free - "The Bay Metro" - do it in association with the new Eden Project if that gets built.

2. Go 2 hourly clockface on the S&C and Bentham - clockface hourly from Leeds alternating which way they turn at Hellfield. Prioritise Bentham in terms of commuter timings as the S&C is a lesser demand in this regard.

3. Add a couple of peak extras if that clockface timetable doesn't quite work for demand.

If only there were enough 3-car 150s for all the uses they get suggested for...

Sure, you could make more. But only by sacrificing more 2-car sets which are widely used across the country as 2s and 4s.

 

[Sm5]

Getting to Hellifield from the blackburn line, be it Preston, Manchester or just starting from Blackburn as a missing gap for unlocking tourist traffic from the North West.

 

[TheBigD]

There used to be a Carlisle to Leeds service just before 12:00, which always seemed quite well loaded when I used it (with a rover). For some reason, it was retimed circa 2018/2019, leaving an almost 3 hour gap (10:58 to 13:40) in the southbound service.

Prior to the changes the 3 hour gap was 0855 to 1155. The changes also saw a better spread of trains northbound at 0519, 0749, 0919, and 1049 compared to 0519, 0849, 0949, and 1049.

 

[507020]

If only there were enough 3-car 150s for all the uses they get suggested for...

Sure, you could make more. But only by sacrificing more 2-car sets which are widely used across the country as 2s and 4s.

As more 150s, 156s and 158s become available and demand increases, they will be able to reform more as 3 cars, but damaged vehicles and 155s need to be scrapped first.

Getting to Hellifield from the blackburn line, be it Preston, Manchester or just starting from Blackburn as a missing gap for unlocking tourist traffic from the North West.

Definitely. Given that the current Rochdale - Clitheroe service gets half way from Blackburn to Hellifield, Manchester is the most likely, but Blackpool, Ormskirk or even Southport could prove quite lucrative. Services from Liverpool Exchange to Hellifield always did run via Ormskirk and Blackburn avoiding Preston.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm liking the OP's idea, an alternating Leeds-Carlisle/Lancaster service would be a nice idea. I don't think there's a need to extend most Lancaster services on to Morecombe, allowing for a more regular and efficient shuttle service for that line. And despite my instincts as a Bradfordian I honestly don't think starting at Bradford FS would be necessary either, I'd rather paths on that section be used to re-instate the half-hourly Aire & Wharfe services that we recently lost.

One slight amendment I'd like to see is some extensions of the Carlisle service up to Glasgow. I've no idea if this could be pathed, but if it could it would an alternative to heading up the East Coast towards Scotland or chancing your hand that Avanti make it past Preston. Additionally, would it be feasible to use 170s on such routes, after all this is kind of what they were built for, i.e. longer regional services. Some could even take on @Bletchleyite's suggestion of some kind of branding to advertise Dales Rail not only in this region, but in Scotland too. All this of course would be a nice-to-have, I'm not necessarily saying it would actually be possible.

 

[daodao]

Keeping both of these lines long-term is unaffordable. I would close the Settle-Carlisle line north of Arcow quarry now that there is little if any through freight traffic and introduce an express passenger service (3/day, 2 on Sundays) between Leeds and Glasgow using 5-car Hitachi class 8xx bi-mode trains in part mitigation, reversing in the loop south of Carnforth to join the WCML there. A 2-hourly stopping service could be retained from Leeds to Lancaster, with peak hour extras from Settle to Leeds. The facility to serve the Newbiggin Gypsum works directly by rail would be lost, but a siding could be provided at Penrith with onward road transport. An intermediate block post would be desirable between Settle Junction and Carnforth.