Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[skyhigh]

Adding diesel engines to a couple of 333s

Where are you going to fit engines? Other than the OS car (the additional 4th car that was added) below sole bar is packed.

Absolutely mad idea.

 

[Neptune]

Taking into consideration things like the view from the train, seat layout, number of carriages, traction and the wider rail network, my thoughts are turning to...

Adding diesel engines to a couple of 333s, leasing some of those refurbished 321s from Eversholt that I believe are having batteries added in order to relieve them. We did have some 321s on the Aire & Wharf Valley lines a few years back.

No room to put any form of alternative traction on a 333 and in any case why would you want to? They are perfectly happy as EMU’s and perform their job on the NW triangle admirably.

Reasoning for this is as follows...

These are 4 car trains with nice big windows like the 170s. I would have suggested 170s for this line although they are only 3 car..

They could do with removing the 2+2 seating anyway, opportunity for seating suitable for the S&C I.e touristy rather than commuter.

There are other trains that can perform this function. I’m not sure how big you want the windows but I find the clear glass in 158’s in seats that line up with windows absolutely fine to look out of. One day they will be replaced but not by a bi-mode 333.

A side bonus is that they could run on electric between Skipton and Leeds and possibly up the WCML if you ever wanted to although I think their top speed is 100mph rather than 110mph.

100mph max but they won’t make it to Carlisle as they won‘t ever be fitted with a diesel engine.

This may also be useful when (if) Skipton to Colne reopens.

Obviously this is subject to engineering feasibilty and clearance.

Let’s not open this can of worms. It’s been done to death. Colne - Skipton is a complete waste of taxpayers money and the spurious and somewhat ridiculous claims the promoters make about how it will become a key Transpennine freight route and the sub 60 minute passenger journey to Leeds from Colne and how East Lancashire has no direct links to Leeds & Bradford (like the Copy Pit route doesn’t exist) make me wish they’d just go away quietly instead of this insulting rubbish. It’s another case of filling in gaps for the sake of the fact that a railway used to be there. They’d be better off campaigning for reinstatement of regular Clitheroe - Hellifield services (as suggested on this thread) and a second hourly Copy Pit service to Leeds such as extending the Hull - Halifax service to Blackburn or Preston. They might not happen but at least there’s more chance for it and far less expense.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I think we can safely say even in a speculation thread, 333s will never see diesel engines strapped to them!

Why do you say that ?

The only other option I can see is for Northern to use these new bi-modes, with diesel engines underneath which are being procured according to HADRAG.

 

[Neptune]

Why do you say that ?

The only other option I can see is for Northern to procure some four car bi-modes, with diesel engines underneath.

I think they are procuring some with batteries although quite clearly batteries won't be good enough for the S&C

As has been said there is absolutely no chance of a 333 ever being fitted with a Diesel engine. For instance there is no room underneath them to have a satisfactory amount of power (maybe a bit of space under the OS but you’d need an engine with an unbelievable amount of power which probably wouldn’t fit anyway). Why would you even want to convert a 22 year old unit to bi-mode anyway? It’s not exactly been a success on other units converted. Better to build a new train specifically designed for such a purpose such as the various Hitachi AT300 versions.

Most likely the future for rural routes on Northern is cascaded 195’s with hybrid power packs if electrification is ramped up for new build EMU’s/bi-modes where there is less requirement for the engine to be used or a bi-mode battery 331 for Windermere and such like with short non electrified sections. A bi-mode Civity is a possibility in the future too as CAF have said they can provide them.

 

[Bantamzen]

Why do you say that ?

The only other option I can see is for Northern to use these new bi-modes, with diesel engines underneath which are being procured according to HADRAG.

For the amount of effort, and money to retrofit 333s it just really wouldn't be worth it, especially if new bi-mode builds are being considered. And even if they did, there is no guarantee that the concept would work with them. The 230s didn't work out too well, and these were retired stock. The 769s have had limited success but there's not exactly too much of a rush to consider other EMUs for testing the concept. Given the amount of time said conversions took to get to live running, its more likely that new builds could be ordered and in revenue service before a 333 hybrid would even make it to testing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do you say that ?

Even if it was feasible, BOTH of those re-engining projects have been an abject failure. Nobody is going to waste money on trying the same thing again with another class of unit.

The only other option I can see is for Northern to use these new bi-modes, with diesel engines underneath which are being procured according to HADRAG.

Northern aren't ordering any bi-modes, they are I believe DMMUs with a hybrid feature.

 

[Neptune]

Northern aren't ordering any bi-modes, they are I believe DMMUs with a hybrid feature.

Never say never with regard to bi-modes at Northern but the hybrid 195’s are a start. If it is a success hopefully it will be retrofitted to the rest of the 195 fleet (with them all extended by 1 coach with any luck).

There is also the plan to trial Hydrogen trains in the Tees Valley. The initial plan will be for the 321 converts but I don’t believe Alstom’s speculative build of 10 Hydrogen Aventra have any takers yet. These would be the perfect fit for the Tees Valley plan fleet size wise with possible future roll out elsewhere (just don’t fit them with 3+2 seats please).

 

[Halifaxlad]

Northern aren't ordering any bi-modes, they are I believe DMMUs with a hybrid feature.

My mistake I re-read the HADRAG article this morning and assumed the words electric traction was in reference to overhead wires.

For those who have missed the point about adding diesel engines to the 333s my suggestion was to enable them to operate on the S&C without OHL.

I'm tempted to suggest building brand new trains although Northern appear to want all their stock to be identical, which normally I support but I don't think whatever operate the S&C should have commuter focused seating layout that has the intention of packing as many sardines in as possible!

I would love to see the next new trains with big windows like on the 333 although I can't see it happening.

 

[Neptune]

For those who have missed the point about adding diesel engines to the 333s my suggestion was to enable them to operate on the S&C without OHL.

I don’t think any of us misunderstood what you meant. Our replies that came back all said the same thing, you can’t add diesel engines to a 333 and more to the point you wouldn’t want to judging by the 2 fleets that have already had this attempted on them. It’s certainly up there with the more bizarre ideas on this forum.

I'm tempted to suggest building brand new trains although Northern appear to want all their stock to be identical, which normally I support but I don't think whatever operate the S&C should have commuter focused seating layout that has the intention of packing as many sardines in as possible!

The CAF Civity that Northern have doesn’t have a sardine crushing interior. It is actually a hybrid interior suitable for both busy commuter services (hence the door stand backs) and also longer distance runs due to the seating layout with tables. They also have very generous overhead luggage racks which are probably better for walking paraphernalia and the like than the vertical stacks in a 158. The interior layout feels much more spacious than the class 158’s that currently operate the S&C too. In any case you’d end up with the same layout in a 333 if you made them 2+2.

I would love to see the next new trains with big windows like on the 333 although I can't see it happening.

CAF Civity windows are as large, if not larger than those on the 333.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I don’t think any of us misunderstood what you meant. Our replies that came back all said the same thing, you can’t add diesel engines to a 333 and more to the point you wouldn’t want to judging by the 2 fleets that have already had this attempted on them. It’s certainly up there with the more bizarre ideas on this forum.

The CAF Civity that Northern have doesn’t have a sardine crushing interior. It is actually a hybrid interior suitable for both busy commuter services (hence the door stand backs) and also longer distance runs due to the seating layout with tables. They also have very generous overhead luggage racks which are probably better for walking paraphernalia and the like than the vertical stacks in a 158. The interior layout feels much more spacious than the class 158’s that currently operate the S&C too. In any case you’d end up with the same layout in a 333 if you made them 2+2.

CAF Civity windows are as large, if not larger than those on the 333.

The 331s and 195s have one significant flaw compared to older (e.g. 333, 158) stock, however - they're ruddy uncomfortable to ride on for long periods, and an absolute pain to use for the crew!

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest if I was going to pick a perfect type of currently available unit for the S&C it'd probably be the Class 168/170/171. Comfortable window aligned seats and the body profile means the windows are panoramic without trying to be, while the sluggishness doesn't overly matter because of the slack timetable and the stops aren't too close together.

A 4 or 5-car formation (SDO if necessary) with a big bike space and some 1st would be perfect. I've long enjoyed the Scottish ones on scenic lines. Perhaps this is something that could become possible once (ha!) Chiltern is electrified and the 168s are all released?

 

[Neptune]

The 331s and 195s have one significant flaw compared to older (e.g. 333, 158) stock, however - they're ruddy uncomfortable to ride on for long periods,

It’s all subjective, I for one find them absolutely fine for long journeys and I have a glass back.

and an absolute pain to use for the crew!

I can tell you’re Skipton based. Once you get them on longer runs with more time between stops they are absolutely fine to work and imagine the views through that massive cab window

 

[yorksrob]

I find the 158's perfectly suited to the routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the 158's perfectly suited to the routes.

You can certainly do worse, the aircon excepted.

 

[Neptune]

I find the 158's perfectly suited to the routes.

I agree however they won’t last forever. As this is a route with zero chance of electrification and as other routes get it then diesel units will be cascaded to replace the 15x fleet. Eventually this will include the 158’s on their longer distance routes such as the S&C.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I can tell you’re Skipton based. Once you get them on longer runs with more time between stops they are absolutely fine to work and imagine the views through that massive cab window

How dare you! I'll have you know we have some very long runs at Skipton - Guiseley to Baildon is nearly six minutes. . .



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2022 ==

I agree however they won’t last forever. As this is a route with zero chance of electrification and as other routes get it then diesel units will be cascaded to replace the 15x fleet. Eventually this will include the 158’s on their longer distance routes such as the S&C.

I believe the current plan is to retire the entire 15x fleet (including 158s) by 2024, though obviously this remains to be seen.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe the current plan is to retire the entire 15x fleet (including 158s) by 2024, though obviously this remains to be seen.

I think the third rail has more chance of reaching Wick TBH.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the third rail has more chance of reaching Wick TBH.

I think 2034 is a more viable target.

 

[yorksrob]

I think 2034 is a more viable target.

Yes, that sounds about right.

 

[Neptune]

How dare you! I'll have you know we have some very long runs at Skipton - Guiseley to Baildon is nearly six minutes. . .



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2022 ==

Haha. Yes it’s a bit of a different world once you move your station stop average to double that. Did you ever sign 321/322’s? They were much harder work than the 195/331 and even worse in the days when the only door control panel was in the cab.

I believe the current plan is to retire the entire 15x fleet (including 158s) by 2024, though obviously this remains to be seen.

I think 2024 is a tad optomistic but maybe phasing them out from 2027 to 2030 is a more achievable target.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Haha. Yes it’s a bit of a different world once you move your station stop average to double that. Did you ever sign 321/322’s? They were much harder work than the 195/331 and even worse in the days when the only door control panel was in the cab.

No, I just missed them - I've heard they could be rather inconvenient. I very much enjoyed them as a passenger though!

 

[D6130]

I haven't time to scroll back through the entire thread and reply to multiple points therein, but I would like to clarify some points regarding the line speed history of the S & C line:

(1) As far as I am aware, the line has never had a 90 mph limit. I have seen a 1960 London Midland Region Sectional Appendix, which shows 65 between Skipton and Hellifield (due no doubt to the contour-hugging curves of the Little North Western); 80 between Hellifield and Newbiggin (just North of the current Kirkby Thore signalbox) and 75 over the slightly more curvaceous section between there and London Road Junction, Carlisle.

(2) The reason that the 60 line speed has not been increased in recent years is nothing to do with braking distances. The 1997 partial resignalling and AWS-fitting scheme - designed by a very talented young signalling engineer who is now Operations Director for Northern - provided for most of the distant signals to be moved further away from their relevant boxes to give braking distance from 75 mph for passenger trains and 60 for freight. The reason why the line speed has never been increased, AFAIK, has been the reluctance of Railtrack - and then Network Rail - to increase the budget for a higher maintenance category for the line. However, as has been mentioned upthread, that may possibly be about to change.

 

[Energy]

I find the 158's perfectly suited to the routes.

The 158s work well and are fine for now. Best option is to leave them as is and let them be replaced by cascaded 195s when other routes are electrified.

 

[yorksrob]

The 158s work well and are fine for now. Best option is to leave them as is and let them be replaced by cascaded 195s when other routes are electrified.

But maybe put some decent cushions in them in the meantime

 

[Energy]

But maybe put some decent cushions in them in the meantime

Be careful what you wish for, its DfT run now and they have a special definition of comfort!

 

[yorksrob]

Be careful what you wish for, its DfT run now and they have a special definition of comfort!

I assumed that was the definition which inspired the current seats (wonderful 3 carriage anomolies excepted).

 

[Neptune]

But maybe put some decent cushions in them in the meantime

Be careful what you wish for, its DfT run now and they have a special definition of comfort!

I assumed that was the definition which inspired the current seats (wonderful 3 carriage anomolies excepted).

As it’s dissolving into a discussion about bloody seats I shall leave this conversation now.

Unwatch.

 

[yorksrob]

As it’s dissolving into a discussion about bloody seats I shall leave this conversation now.

Unwatch.

Well, if you do the whole line, you spend a lot of time sat on them !

 

[InkyScrolls]

As it’s dissolving into a discussion about bloody seats I shall leave this conversation now.

Unwatch.

If three comments can count as 'dissolving'. . .

 

[YorksLad12]

The 331s and 195s have one significant flaw compared to older (e.g. 333, 158) stock, however - they're ruddy uncomfortable to ride on for long periods, and an absolute pain to use for the crew!

PLEASE don't let this turn into another discussion on the crappiness or otherwise of the 195s/331s

As it’s dissolving into a discussion about bloody seats I shall leave this conversation now.

Unwatch.

Don't mention the seats! I did once, think I got away with it.

On-topic: has anyone / any body published a "future of..." document for these routes? I've seen some for the Leeds/Bradford to Skipton section but not further north.