Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[Ken H]

Peak hour trains already stop at Steeton for Leeds business.

As for Ilkley/Otley to beyond Skipton - Steeton isn't particularly convenient to drive to, but if anyone really wanted to avoid the parking problem at Skipton there are plenty of stoppers from Steeton.

Steeton is quite close to Airedale Hospital. But a bit far to walk unless you are fit. Few buses unless you change at Steeton. Pity there isnt a pedestrian way through from the station to the back of the hospital. (Airedale has a catchment that includes Keighley and the Worth Valley, Colne, Skipton, Settle and upper Ribblesdale and Ilkley and Upper Wharfedale. )

 

[Grumpy]

3/4/6 car EMU’s are much more fit for the purpose of soaking up any additional passengers, than already crowded 2 car DMU’s, with already slow end-to-end journey times. And most regular uses of the car park, will be using it to head to places with an existing direct train anyway.

Agreed. But the EMU's don't go beyond Skipton and the aim would be to provide something more appealing for potential passengers wishing to travel north of Skipton

As for Ilkley/Otley to beyond Skipton - Steeton isn't particularly convenient to drive to, but if anyone really wanted to avoid the parking problem at Skipton there are plenty of stoppers from Steeton.

I would argue that driving to Steeton station is easier than driving to Skipton station. And taking a stopper from Steeton to Skipton with the resultant need to change is a deterrent to travel

 

[Iskra]

Agreed. But the EMU's don't go beyond Skipton and the aim would be to provide something more appealing for potential passengers wishing to travel north of Skipton


I would argue that driving to Steeton station is easier than driving to Skipton station. And taking a stopper from Steeton to Skipton with the resultant need to change is a deterrent to travel

The market for people wanting to go North of Skipton is probably miniscule.

 

[30907]

Steeton is quite close to Airedale Hospital. But a bit far to walk unless you are fit. Few buses unless you change at Steeton. Pity there isnt a pedestrian way through from the station to the back of the hospital.

I agree on both counts! An hourly bus offpeak would be better.

(Airedale has a catchment that includes Keighley and the Worth Valley, Colne, Skipton, Settle and upper Ribblesdale and Ilkley and Upper Wharfedale. )

...and Saltaire

But

I would argue that driving to Steeton station is easier than driving to Skipton station.

Probably during the day - less so if you are a weekend day out customer.

BTW From Ilkley (and perhaps Otley) to the S and C wouldn't you (when the full half-hourly timetable is operating) simply go via Shipley with generally decent connections?

 

[InkyScrolls]

I would argue that driving to Steeton station is easier than driving to Skipton station. And taking a stopper from Steeton to Skipton with the resultant need to change is a deterrent to travel

And yet plenty of people do just that.

 

[M&NEJ]

BTW From Ilkley (and perhaps Otley) to the S and C wouldn't you (when the full half-hourly timetable is operating) simply go via Shipley with generally decent connections?

Yes, absolutely: from the opposite direction, I sometimes travel on the "Bentham" line to go to stations to Ilkley (e.g. Menston for the bus to Otley) so I change at Shipley.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Steeton is quite close to Airedale Hospital. But a bit far to walk unless you are fit. Few buses unless you change at Steeton. Pity there isnt a pedestrian way through from the station to the back of the hospital. (Airedale has a catchment that includes Keighley and the Worth Valley, Colne, Skipton, Settle and upper Ribblesdale and Ilkley and Upper Wharfedale. )

And, except of a couple of diversions of the 62 Ilkley to Keighley bus via the hospital each day, Airedale hospital doesn’t even have a direct bus link to the sizeable town of Ilkley. Diverting every 62 via the hospital would give both Ilkley and Steeton station useful transport links to the the hospital. The time penalty can’t be that great, probably no greater than the 62 going round the houses in Silsden as it currently does.

(Looking at the bus timetable there is a 5-7 minutes time penalty to go via the hospital. Worth it for the improved transport links?).

 

[Ken H]

And, except of a couple of diversions of the 62 Ilkley to Keighley bus via the hospital each day, Airedale hospital doesn’t even have a direct bus link to the sizeable town of Ilkley. Diverting every 62 via the hospital would give both Ilkley and Steeton station useful transport links to the the hospital. The time penalty can’t be that great, probably no greater than the 62 going round the houses in Silsden as it currently does.

(Looking at the bus timetable there is a 5-7 minutes time penalty to go via the hospital. Worth it for the improved transport links?).

maybe the hospital have some sort of impediment to more buses. The perimeter road is narrow and has speed bumps. Only the Burnely bus usually goes round the hospital plus a few infrequent minibuses. The 66 Keighley - Skiptons dont. You have to walk up to/from the road. I know the path through car park one and through the subway well!

 

[30907]

And, except of a couple of diversions of the 62 Ilkley to Keighley bus via the hospital each day, Airedale hospital doesn’t even have a direct bus link to the sizeable town of Ilkley. Diverting every 62 via the hospital would give both Ilkley and Steeton station useful transport links to the the hospital. The time penalty can’t be that great, probably no greater than the 62 going round the houses in Silsden as it currently does.

(Looking at the bus timetable there is a 5-7 minutes time penalty to go via the hospital. Worth it for the improved transport links?).

The two loops (Silsden and Airedale) are similar time-wise.

The problem is that Keighley-Airedale is pretty well served (which, incidentally, makes changing at Steeton Top a tolerable option) so the 62 would really only be picking up Addingham/Ilkley to Airedale traffic (Silsden is covered by the 903 minibus during the day). And although the round-the-houses loop is tedious for through passengers, there's a lot of people live there!

(ISTR the previous service pattern was hourly to Ilkley (and for a while beyond) direct and hourly to the Silsden loop.)

 

[Grumpy]

Probably during the day - less so if you are a weekend day out customer.



BTW From Ilkley (and perhaps Otley) to the S and C wouldn't you (when the full half-hourly timetable is operating) simply go via Shipley with generally decent connections?

Ilkley to Steeton by train over an hour with an open hike to change platforms. Or approx 15 minutes by car.
No I wouldn't.

 

[Mag_seven]

A few years ago a thread was started (Settle & Carlisle Line - Past, Present & Future) regarding the Settle - Carlisle line and the direction it should be taking in the future. A few suggestions included a more regular and more frequent timetable, later and earlier trains, the introducing of semifast and express services, through trains to Glasgow, etc.

Since then the service has marginally improved, with the related Bentham Line in particular having a far better service than three years ago. (As a side note, I feel that the official 'Bentham Line' name is mediocre at best and does nothing to promote the line as a destination in its own right; I personally much prefer the unofficial but accurate 'Forest of Bowland Line'.)

With the past three years, and upcoming changes with the arrival of BR 2.0 next year in mind, where do we see these lines heading? What is likely to happen, what could happen, and what would be ideal?

For myself I would like to see:
- The introduction of a 'clockface' timetable, with an hourly departure from Leeds, alternating to Carlisle and Lancaster
- The Morecambe portion of the latter being dropped and run as a separate service as it frequently leads to significant delays to eastbound FoBL trains
- All trains calling at all stations, but. . .
- . . .Demote some of them to requests (e.g. Long Preston, Clapham, Wennington, Ribblehead, Dent and Armathwaite)

What would the most honourable members of this forum have be done regarding the future (short- and long-term) of the S&C and FoB lines?

N.B. I am a conductor for Northern who works the line, so if you have any questions requiring anecdotal answers I'm happy to oblige where I can.

Thread reopened at the request of @InkyScrolls.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Thank you. There's a few threads open on various sub forums regarding the S&C which are in danger of diverting into speculation, so I thought this might be suitable alternative.

Regarding decreased journey times from Leeds to Glasgow, what sort of paths are available between Carlisle and Glasgow? It's not a line I know well.

For a very limited stop service the minimum times you'd be looking at would be something like:-

• Leeds 0
• Shipley 12
• Skipton 30
• Settle 47
• Carlisle 129
• Glasgow 210

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Thank you. There's a few threads open on various sub forums regarding the S&C which are in danger of diverting into speculation, so I thought this might be suitable alternative.

Regarding decreased journey times from Leeds to Glasgow, what sort of paths are available between Carlisle and Glasgow? It's not a line I know well.

For a very limited stop service the minimum times you'd be looking at would be something like:-

• Leeds 0
• Shipley 12
• Skipton 30
• Settle 47
• Carlisle 129
• Glasgow 210

I believe CrossCountry were apparently considering running their HST's on this line which would have certainly got rid of the worst of the overcrowding on the 2 and 3-car Northern 158's.

 

[zwk500]

Regarding decreased journey times from Leeds to Glasgow, what sort of paths are available between Carlisle and Glasgow? It's not a line I know well.

Not very good ones. Between Leeds and Skipton you are constrained by the electric Airdale services, on the S&C Absolute Block and freight, and between Carlisle and Glasgow the Avanti Intercity + Freight combinations.

 

[Ken H]

Thank you. There's a few threads open on various sub forums regarding the S&C which are in danger of diverting into speculation, so I thought this might be suitable alternative.

Regarding decreased journey times from Leeds to Glasgow, what sort of paths are available between Carlisle and Glasgow? It's not a line I know well.

For a very limited stop service the minimum times you'd be looking at would be something like:-

• Leeds 0
• Shipley 12
• Skipton 30
• Settle 47
• Carlisle 129
• Glasgow 210

I am sure that there are speed gains to be had between Leeds & Skipton.
Anyway, why do you need to go beyond Carlisle? Passengers would just change onto an Avanti ot TPE train.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Not very good ones. Between Leeds and Skipton you are constrained by the electric Airedale services, on the S&C Absolute Block and freight, and between Carlisle and Glasgow the Avanti Intercity + Freight combinations.

Yes, I'm very familiar with Leeds to Carlisle! I don't think the AB would be an issue at the right times; the Airedale clogs things up but there is a regular 'express' path twice per hour, only some slots of which are taken.

 

[zwk500]

Yes, I'm very familiar with Leeds to Carlisle! I don't think the AB would be an issue at the right times; the Airedale clogs things up but there is a regular 'express' path twice per hour, only some slots of which are taken.

So the paths out of Leeds to Skipton aren't too bad, but there's a lot of pathing in some of the paths into Leeds I've looked at.

Regarding Carlisle-Glasgow, taking an hour at random the current S&C train terminates Carlisle 1331, the next Avanti to Glasgow is 1349. So realistically it'd have a 16 minute head start (2 minute dwell so depart 1333), a 90mph unit would cover 24 miles in that time. A 125mph train gains roughly 0.6 of a mile over a 90mph train if both are running at full speed. It'd therefore take 40 minutes to catch up with it. The Avanti would therefore catch up with a theoretical Leeds-Glasgow between Abington and Carstairs, based on the RTT timings although in all likelihood I expect it'd be nearer Abington. The time penalty waiting for the Leeds train to get into a loop at Carstairs is likely to be 5-6 minutes at least, which I expect (but haven't checked) would stuff the Avanti at Motherwell. Looping the Leeds-Glasgow further south (e.g. Beattock, that'll be fun in winter) is an option but are people really going to sit on a direct train that's overtaken and therefore substantially earlier into Glasgow?

 

[daodao]

So the paths out of Leeds to Skipton aren't too bad, but there's a lot of pathing in some of the paths into Leeds I've looked at.

Regarding Carlisle-Glasgow, taking an hour at random the current S&C train terminates Carlisle 1331, the next Avanti to Glasgow is 1349. So realistically it'd have a 16 minute head start (2 minute dwell so depart 1333), a 90mph unit would cover 24 miles in that time. A 125mph train gains roughly 0.6 of a mile over a 90mph train if both are running at full speed. It'd therefore take 40 minutes to catch up with it. The Avanti would therefore catch up with a theoretical Leeds-Glasgow between Abington and Carstairs, based on the RTT timings although in all likelihood I expect it'd be nearer Abington. The time penalty waiting for the Leeds train to get into a loop at Carstairs is likely to be 5-6 minutes at least, which I expect (but haven't checked) would stuff the Avanti at Motherwell. Looping the Leeds-Glasgow further south (e.g. Beattock, that'll be fun in winter) is an option but are people really going to sit on a direct train that's overtaken and therefore substantially earlier into Glasgow?

A through train from Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C line would best be operated by an express bimode train such as a 5-coach Hitachi class 802, so it could operate at 125 mph over Beattock.

 

[InkyScrolls]

A through train from Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C line would best be operated by an express bimode train such as a 5-coach Hitachi class 802, so it could operate at 125 mph over Beattock.

Indeed, anything slower is asking for trouble/not possible, as @zwk500 has demonstrated.

 

[D6130]

A through train from Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C line would best be operated by an express bimode train such as a 5-coach Hitachi class 802, so it could operate at 125 mph over Beattock.

Being pedantic, a Hitachi bimode unit - being non-tilting - would be limited to 110 between Carlisle and Glasgow, as are the 397 electric units.

 

[InkyScrolls]

An example northbound morning path, which appears to be (just about!) free of conflicts, would be as follows:-

• Take the current ECS path from Leeds at 0621, calling at Shipley en route to Skipton
• Arrive at Skipton at 0650, depart at 0652
• Run nonstop to Carlisle, arriving at 0828
• Depart Carlisle at 0830
• Arrive Glasgow Central at 0951

 

[Grumpy]

Being pedantic, a Hitachi bimode unit - being non-tilting - would be limited to 110 between Carlisle and Glasgow, as are the 397 electric units.

Which is one of the reasons that the TPE journey times Carlisle to Glasgow are little changed from those achieved with DMU's 10 years ago.

An example northbound morning path, which appears to be (just about!) free of conflicts, would be as follows:-

• Take the current ECS path from Leeds at 0621, calling at Shipley en route to Skipton
• Arrive at Skipton at 0650, depart at 0652
• Run nonstop to Carlisle, arriving at 0828
• Depart Carlisle at 0830
• Arrive Glasgow Central at 0951

Looks good. There are other northbound trains from Carlisle at 0902 and 0913 but they wouldn't catch yours up

 

[Topological]

What is the primary market for a train from Leeds at 06:21 which only calls at Shipley, Skipton and Carlisle?

In the summer there is a possible argument that a 09:51 arrival at Glasgow Central enables onward travel from Queen Street for leisure passengers (I have not checked if it does allow West Highland connections).

Surely to maximise revenue there needs to be inward workings to Leeds that connect?

Is it simply that paths become much harder once the day actually gets going?

Is it possible to operate close to the TPE path so as not to get in the way of Avanti? Ideally this Glasgow train would be in the hours where TPE goes to Edinburgh.

 

[D6130]

In the summer there is a possible argument that a 09:51 arrival at Glasgow Central enables onward travel from Queen Street for leisure passengers (I have not checked if it does allow West Highland connections).

It would connect in Summer with the 10 35 Queen Street to Oban....and all year, with the 12 23 to Fort William and Mallaig (with a much longer wait of course).

 

[Iskra]

A through train from Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C line would best be operated by an express bimode train such as a 5-coach Hitachi class 802, so it could operate at 125 mph over Beattock.

A more realistic, yet still suitable option would probably be displaced class 185’s in the future. Comfortable enough, an upgrade on current stock, powerful on hills, 100mph and cleared for the WCML North having previously worked there.

 

[Gathursty]

What would be timing options taking the GSW from Carlisle to Glasgow instead of the narrow gap available on the WCML?

 

[daodao]

What would be timing options taking the GSW from Carlisle to Glasgow instead of the narrow gap available on the WCML?

Trains from Carlisle to Glasgow Central via the ex-GSWR line would take at least an hour longer than the direct ex-CR route via Beattock, and that assumes that there would be capacity, given the 2 significant single-track sections on the busier part of the route from Kilmarnock to Barrhead.

In other words, useless for long-distance express trains to England, except as a limited emergency diversion route when the route via Beattock is closed.

Historically, trains from the S&C line were not routed via Beattock to Edinburgh/Glasgow because the CR had an exclusive relationship with the LNWR (the MR's competitor). This persisted despite the 1923 railway mergers. The only change to this practice before all through services were withdrawn (in May 1982) occurred in the later 1970s, when 1 of the 3 remaining express trains via the S&C line to Glasgow was re-routed this way.

If a direct train service is to be restored between Leeds and Glasgow, it needs to be operated by trains that can run as fast as the non-tilting speed limit over the Beattock route (110 mph) and to be operated using electric traction between Carlisle and Glasgow.

 

[zwk500]

It would connect in Summer with the 10 35 Queen Street to Oban....and all year, with the 12 23 to Fort William and Mallaig (with a much longer wait of course).

For the how many people in Leeds who are willing to get up at the cracking of dawn to do Ben Nevis?
How long would an XC via Ednburgh take for Leeds to Glasgow?

If you're running extra trains beyond Skipton I'd have though Lancaster would be a far more sensible place to aim for than Glasgow.

 

[Iskra]

For the how many people in Leeds who are willing to get up at the cracking of dawn to do Ben Nevis?
How long would an XC via Ednburgh take for Leeds to Glasgow?

If you're running extra trains beyond Skipton I'd have though Lancaster would be a far more sensible place to aim for than Glasgow.

Me and my partner did just that, stayed overnight, climbed Ben Nevis then got the sleeper home. Awesome trip and the most time-efficient way to do it! …I appreciate that I’m not representative with my travel habits though!

The Bentham line has its best ever service and it’s a tiny city compared to Glasgow and less of a tourist draw since Glasgow is the first gateway to the Highlands and Islands.

 

[Grumpy]

What is the primary market for a train from Leeds at 06:21 which only calls at Shipley, Skipton and Carlisle?

Clearly for anyone who needs to be in the Glasgow area in the morning.
A 9.50 arrival would be ok for morning meetings/interviews etc.