Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A significant issue is that those with paper senior railcards who do not have Internet access will not be able to renew them if ticket offices close so will have to pay full fare.

That has never really affected me as the four 3-year Senior Citizen Railcards that I have held were only available to buy online. You do make a good saving over the cost of three annual railcards.

Unfortunately, since my wife passed away in November 2021, having been in a nursing home since March 2021, neither of those last-issued 3-year railcards for my wife and I have ever been used.

 

[daveo]

"most passengers these days simply go online, buy the ticket they want ...... " and ".....

most people prefer online sales these days"

Have you surveyed all travellers to be able to (repeatedly) assert this.
Please quote the evidential percentages

Apologies - just seen the 12% statistic

 

[occone]

It seems they are only measuring the things that are easy to measure.

The value that ticket offices provide (as a service hub and more, instead of just warm blooded vending machines) is mostly not numerical.

It's like when bus routes are cut because the ticket sales vs running costs don't make money; they fail to factor in the very real value delivered indirectly by the bus routes that isn't just a column of numbers that can be mashed into a calculator. It stinks of "my first spreadsheet" for dummies.

 

[yorksrob]

It is indeed!

Slightly tongue in cheek (horses for courses and all that) but on many rural Japanese lines the driver is the only staff member on board and duly deals with fare collection.

Fascinating to watch how it is done - Wikipedia has more in its One-Person Operation article.

Sounds interesting.

Whether it would suit for a Saturday evening local train in the North, I'm not sure though!

It seems they are only measuring the things that are easy to measure.

The value that ticket offices provide (as a service hub and more, instead of just warm blooded vending machines) is mostly not numerical.

It's like when bus routes are cut because the ticket sales vs running costs don't make money; they fail to factor in the very real value delivered indirectly by the bus routes that isn't just a column of numbers that can be mashed into a calculator. It stinks of "my first spreadsheet" for dummies.

Absolutely spot on.

 

[tomuk]

Not quite. 94% have bought tickets another way. The stats pay not attention to people who need help with their etickets, times, Passenger Assist booking and so on. I wonder if the figure includes excess fares and reservations?

The data does include excess fares. Leeds issued 4,959 out of the 700,000 tickets issued at the ticket office. Leeds being a NR station has three information points and they run the assistance service and suggest users report to the information desk.
Overall excess fares look like a very niche activity with only 33,000 issued in a year across all 149 of their ticket office stations.

 

[yorkie]

The data does include excess fares. Leeds issued 4,959 out of the 700,000 tickets issued at the ticket office. Leeds being a NR station has three information points and they run the assistance service and suggest users report to the information desk.
Overall excess fares look like a very niche activity with only 33,000 issued in a year across all 149 of their ticket office stations.

I'd guess the majority of excess fares are issued on board, rather than at stations. In many cases there is no penalty for doing so (and certainly not if the ticket office is closed).

A big problem with excess fares can be where the excess should be purchased before travelling and the ticket office either doesn't know how to do it, refuses to do it, or wants to overcharge you (e.g. charging the full difference for a change of route excess, which has happened on numerous occasions); in such cases I'd argue it should be treated the same as if there was no ticket office, but it's not an argument I want to get into!

 

[weeklycommuter]

A significant issue is that those with paper senior railcards who do not have Internet access will not be able to renew them if ticket offices close so will have to pay full fare.

Another significant issue if all ticket offices close is that anyone without a rail photocard will be unable to buy a season ticket even online as a rail photocard is required to purchase a season ticket and rail photocards are only available from the rail ticket offices with the not very modern process of sticking a photo on a piece of card.

Train Season Tickets | Rail Season Ticket | South Western Railway

Are you making regular journeys on the same route every week? Calculate how much you could save with our season ticket calculator and explore our ticket options.

www.southwesternrailway.com

Buying and using a season ticket
Before you buy an adult or child season ticket, you’ll need a valid Photocard as an ID. Just take a recent passport-sized photo of yourself to your local ticket office and they’ll make one for you for free.
Oh sorry we've closed all our ticket offices so you can't do this anymore.

The Government and the train operators would have more credibility if they had put in place alternative ways of obtaining all products, services and tickets which are currently only available from rail ticket offices instead of announcing the closure of all ticket offices before even working out the alternative ways of obtaining these products, services and tickets.

they've clearly ballsed up and underestimated the strength of feeling and traction it would gain outside of the railway bubble and I highly suspect we're on course for some sort of fudge.

I cannot read the article as it is behind a paywall but the message is clear

Tory rebellion brews over rail office closures as MPs fear lost votes

Senior Conservative backbenchers raise concerns about the impact on constituents

www.telegraph.co.uk

Tory rebellion brews over rail office closures as MPs fear lost votes
Senior Conservative backbenchers raise concerns about the impact on constituents
Senior Conservative backbenchers have accused the Government of “bad politics” over ticket office closures as they warned it could cost the party votes

 

[infobleep]

I cannot read the article as it is behind a paywall but the message is clear

Tory rebellion brews over rail office closures as MPs fear lost votes

Senior Conservative backbenchers raise concerns about the impact on constituents

www.telegraph.co.uk

Tory rebellion brews over rail office closures as MPs fear lost votes
Senior Conservative backbenchers raise concerns about the impact on constituents
Senior Conservative backbenchers have accused the Government of “bad politics” over ticket office closures as they warned it could cost the party votes

One of my friends who thinks ticket offices should close believes they made the original consultation period so short that it would not lead to ticket offices closing.

Whereas I thought they made it so short originally to ensure they did close. We both agreed the original period was too short though.

One suggestion a couple of people have made is that if it's cheaper for blind or other disabled users to be given free travel than have someone in a dedicated space all the time, so the disabled users know where they are, why not do that instead? I don't know if it would be cheaper though.

 

[islandmonkey]

It's like when bus routes are cut because the ticket sales vs running costs don't make money; they fail to factor in the very real value delivered indirectly by the bus routes that isn't just a column of numbers that can be mashed into a calculator. It stinks of "my first spreadsheet" for dummies.

Well that's it. There's mindless money spending sprees, but then there's also mindless money saving sprees!

 

[pitdiver]

As a matter of interest how do people book their holidays if they are fortunate to be able to afford one. I have booked my last three on line as its easier for me than to go to a travel agent. Booking a foreign holiday was a bit challenging the first time but now I am a dab hand at it. However I cant yet get my train tickets on line as I have a PTAC and TfL haven't sorted that out yet. So I have to get a train to my nearest manned station to by a ticket.

 

[irp]

As a matter of interest how do people book their holidays if they are fortunate to be able to afford one. I have booked my last three on line as its easier for me than to go to a travel agent. Booking a foreign holiday was a bit challenging the first time but now I am a dab hand at it. However I cant yet get my train tickets on line as I have a PTAC and TfL haven't sorted that out yet. So I have to get a train to my nearest manned station to by a ticket.

I've always booked online, induvidual flights, hotels, attractions as I see fit. Gives me freedom, not tied to the package deals. Train tickets, That depends

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I missed a programme that one of my neighbours told me about mentioned an elderly couple being charged an exorbitant sum of money by Ryanair for printing out some documents, as those elderly people had been confused and had the wrong paperwork. If anyone knows the full story, can they put their views on this thread, please.

 

[WatcherZero]

Elderly couple received email telling them to complete their check in before arriving at the airport and to print off their boarding pass, they got confused and checked in for the return flight rather than the outbound flight. When they got to the airport Ryanair charged them the in-person late check in fee of £55 per person as they hadn't checked in for that flight.

 

[JamesT]

I missed a programme that one of my neighbours told me about mentioned an elderly couple being charged an exorbitant sum of money by Ryanair for printing out some documents, as those elderly people had been confused and had the wrong paperwork. If anyone knows the full story, can they put their views on this thread, please.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66500479 Is the BBC article on the story.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66500479 Is the BBC article on the story.

Thanks for that. It goes to show that not everyone is infallible when they go online, human nature being what it is.

 

[Turtle]

Well that's it. There's mindless money spending sprees, but then there's also mindless money saving sprees!

Well that's it. There's mindless money spending sprees, but then there's also mindless money saving sprees!

Too, too true, as will be shown by this total ticket office closure nonsense.

 

[Garulon]

The data does include excess fares. Leeds issued 4,959 out of the 700,000 tickets issued at the ticket office. Leeds being a NR station has three information points and they run the assistance service and suggest users report to the information desk.
Overall excess fares look like a very niche activity with only 33,000 issued in a year across all 149 of their ticket office stations.

That's an evasion rate of <1%, I don't understand how the fare evasion infrastructure (patrolling guards, barriers etc) is justified on cost grounds with statistically everybody paying the correct fare, let alone the inconvenience to the paying customers

 

[tomuk]

That's an evasion rate of <1%, I don't understand how the fare evasion infrastructure (patrolling guards, barriers etc) is justified on cost grounds with statistically everybody paying the correct fare, let alone the inconvenience to the paying customers

You can't calculate an evasion rate - it is purely the number of excess fares sold the two are completely different things. Excess fares are upgrading from standard to first class, changing from off peak to peak ticket, changing the routing on a restricted ticket.

 

[leytongabriel]

Closing tube ticket offices seems to have created a whole raft of jobs where there is nothing much to do except look at your mobile phone and tell people to get help for queries on line. Of course they are there 'in case', we understand that, but the obvious boredom doesn't make for alertness and the limited roles can't be seen as good value for money.

 

[occone]

There's also the presentation factor as you note - seeing staff ready to help, at a desk with all information to hand is so much more professional (and helpful) than someone floating about who can only do so much.

They're wanting to turn the railway into what is basically one almighty WHSmith that has trains rather than books. If you've been in to a WHSmiths in the past few years you'll know what I mean! No staff, lots of unstaffed desks, place a mess, having to hunt people down if you have a question, staff have no product knowledge, you're on your own.

 

[michael8]

There's also the presentation factor as you note - seeing staff ready to help, at a desk with all information to hand is so much more professional (and helpful) than someone floating about who can only do so much.

They're wanting to turn the railway into what is basically one almighty WHSmith that has trains rather than books. If you've been in to a WHSmiths in the past few years you'll know what I mean! No staff, lots of unstaffed desks, place a mess, having to hunt people down if you have a question, staff have no product knowledge, you're on your own.

Yes exactly

 

[Foxcover]

Even if a poor experience isn't "the norm", the experience on Merseyrail isn't great. Most people just want to go online, have the full range of fares available, get an e-ticket and simply get on the train. Even if the staff are helpful, my idea of a seamless travel experience isn't to queue up at a shop!

Yes, exactly re Merseyrail. Especially when actually the booking office service/knowledge is often not good at all, time after time.

 

[urbophile]

Yes, exactly re Merseyrail. Especially when actually the booking office service/knowledge is often not good at all, time after time.

The sooner Merseyrail is hived off from National rail the better. That would allow it to concentrate on a ticketing system that would be simple and adapted to local journeys. It should of course also allow the use of e-tickets for through journeys to national destinations. The idea of maintaining ticket offices on Merseyrail as a way of ensuring a staff presence sounds ok in theory, but offices are often unpredictably closed anyway because of absence, and many of them are located on bridges or otherwise well away from the platforms which is where staff are really required.

 

[Richardr]

Meanwhile this morning the government are saying:

Banks will have to provide cash services within three miles of customers who live in rural areas, and just one mile for those in towns and cities.

Apparently there are many people who can only use cash. Is this by any chance the same government that wants to shut ticket offices, as everyone is paying by card either online or via a ticket machine?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Apparently there are many people who can only use cash. Is this by any chance the same government that wants to shut ticket offices, as everyone is paying by card either online or via a ticket machine?

Looking to the future, if other parties become the next government, will they too insist on that instruction with regards to the banking sector?

 

[johncrossley]

Meanwhile this morning the government are saying:

Banks face fines if they breach rules on access to cash

The Treasury says people should be able to get cash within three miles for rural areas, or one mile in towns.

www.bbc.co.uk

You neglected to quote the section of the article that I have embolden, which means that this "policy" is meaningless.

A new policy will state that free cash withdrawals and deposits must be available within one mile for people living in urban areas.
In rural areas, where there are concerns over "cash deserts", the maximum distance is three miles.
The move is unlikely to halt branch closures and the decline in cash use.
The Treasury said the distances were chosen to maintain the current level of coverage of free access to cash, through ATMs or face-to-face services. Those limits could be extended if cash use declines in the future.

 

[urbophile]

'Banks will have to provide cash services within three miles of customers who live in rural areas, and just one mile for those in towns and cities.'

Wouldn't that represent an improvement for those remote rural areas such as the Scottish Highlands or Northumberland, where people might be more than three miles from the nearest house, let alone village or other settlement?

 

[northwichcat]

'Banks will have to provide cash services within three miles of customers who live in rural areas, and just one mile for those in towns and cities.'

Wouldn't that represent an improvement for those remote rural areas such as the Scottish Highlands or Northumberland, where people might be more than three miles from the nearest house, let alone village or other settlement?

I would guess in the case of a farm owner it would mean within three miles of their farmland, rather than three miles of their farmhouse.

 

[johncrossley]

'Banks will have to provide cash services within three miles of customers who live in rural areas, and just one mile for those in towns and cities.'

Wouldn't that represent an improvement for those remote rural areas such as the Scottish Highlands or Northumberland, where people might be more than three miles from the nearest house, let alone village or other settlement?

I very much doubt that there will be new cash machines or post offices opened up in the middle of nowhere! It won't make any difference at all, as I cannot see how they can force a post office to stay open if it is uneconomic.

 

[cav1975]

Another significant issue if all ticket offices close is that anyone without a rail photocard will be unable to buy a season ticket even online as a rail photocard is required to purchase a season ticket and rail photocards are only available from the rail ticket offices with the not very modern process of sticking a photo on a piece of card.

Train Season Tickets | Rail Season Ticket | South Western Railway

Are you making regular journeys on the same route every week? Calculate how much you could save with our season ticket calculator and explore our ticket options.

www.southwesternrailway.com

Buying and using a season ticket
Before you buy an adult or child season ticket, you’ll need a valid Photocard as an ID. Just take a recent passport-sized photo of yourself to your local ticket office and they’ll make one for you for free.
Oh sorry we've closed all our ticket offices so you can't do this anymore.

The Government and the train operators would have more credibility if they had put in place alternative ways of obtaining all products, services and tickets which are currently only available from rail ticket offices instead of announcing the closure of all ticket offices before even working out the alternative ways of obtaining these products, services and tickets.


I cannot read the article as it is behind a paywall but the message is clear

Tory rebellion brews over rail office closures as MPs fear lost votes

Senior Conservative backbenchers raise concerns about the impact on constituents

www.telegraph.co.uk

Tory rebellion brews over rail office closures as MPs fear lost votes
Senior Conservative backbenchers raise concerns about the impact on constituents
Senior Conservative backbenchers have accused the Government of “bad politics” over ticket office closures as they warned it could cost the party votes

Try this version which seems to get around the paywall: -

MSN

Senior Conservative backbenchers have accused the Government of “bad politics” over ticket office closures as they warned it could cost the party votes.

Rail firms have unveiled plans to shut hundreds of kiosks across the country as part of a consultation backed by ministers.

However, the offices received a reprieve last month after the exercise was extended by five weeks, amid criticism from disability groups and passengers who say many people still rely on the facilities.

Two dozen Tory MPs have now raised concerns about the impact on their constituents, with some urging Downing Street to rethink its position.

One former Cabinet minister said: “It’s really crap politics to be doing this now, just before a general election. Ministers at the [Department for Transport] clearly don’t have a grip over their civil servants and the railways.

“They should have absolutely just said no this close to an election. It’s the sort of thing you’d want to spend much longer thinking about and figure out how it’ll affect village stations.”

Another former minister said: “The people who are going to be impacted are Conservative supporters. It just gives the sense that we really don’t care about basic services for people that they fork out for.”

Another former minister said: “The people who are going to be impacted are Conservative supporters. It just gives the sense that we really don’t care about basic services for people that they fork out for.”

“Bromley as a borough has the largest pensioner population in Greater London, so we have more people in that situation,” Sir Bob said.

“It’d be absolutely wrong to close them unless and until there is an absolute guarantee that the stations will continue to be manned and continue to be manned all the time and that they are operating.”

Elderly may feel ‘vulnerable’​

He warned that women and the elderly may feel “particularly vulnerable coming home late at night if there’s nobody at the station”, echoing safety concerns raised by various campaigning groups.

Sir John Redwood, a former Cabinet minister and the MP for Wokingham, said a lot of passengers who use the railways for leisure are retired.

“They tend to like to buy a ticket in person rather than doing everything online, so I would be a bit nervous about being willing to close all those offices down and alienate what I think is an important chunk of their market now,” Sir John said.

Opposition to the closures has spanned the political spectrum. Last month, 21 Left-wing MPs signed an early day motion arguing ticket office staff are “essential to the smooth running of the rail network”.

Louise Haigh, Labour’s shadow transport secretary, has warned about the impact on “vulnerable rail users”.

A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “Train operator consultations on ticket offices are ongoing and no final decisions have been made.”