Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[Peter Mugridge]

I see all the companies have turned commenting off on both twitter & Facebook.
Dft/RDG etc behind this. Maybe people should just send comments to them.

That doesn't prevent screenshotting the tweets and tagging the companies, the DfT and the RDG in on the reply with the screenshot...

 

[yorkie]

Indeed, and if they start doing so, that's good. But at the moment they don't, Anglia Plus is only available at a ticket office (or on the train, but that's not a lot of use at a barriered penalty fare station) - are the TVMs going to be reprogrammed before the ticket offices close?

If the ticket is not available at the origin, passengers must be allowed through. No ifs, no buts.

Despite this, it isn't 'very effective' if you want to buy, let's say an Anglia Plus. As you can't.

Are they accepting people can buy on board or are they erroneously attempting to deny travel?

 

[vikingdriver]

Plenty of people in the UK work outside and in far more environmentally hostile conditions than on station concourses and platforms, so I don't think clothing is a valid blocker for these proposals.

I didn't say it was, this consultation is pointless anyway as it will be happening whatever anyone says! I've spent a lot of years pre-railway employment working outside, suitably equipped. Anyone working for my TOC knows that the uniform is not fit for purpose as it is and come winter, platform staff will wear their own clothing to escape the cold yet have management breathing down their neck for being incorrectly dressed. All I wish is the staff are thought about rather than the bottom line which currently sees clothing from the cheapest sweatshop in the poorest country.

 

[MikeWM]

If the ticket is not available at the origin, passengers must be allowed through. No ifs, no buts.


Are they accepting people can buy on board or are they erroneously attempting to deny travel?

I've raised this in other threads a few times now - the answer appears to be 'nobody will tell you what the proper answer is' and so you don't have anything official to refer to if challenged.

Is it to buy a single to the first place that does have a staffed ticket office, and try to exchange? Or is it just to get on board a penalty fare DOO service and hope eventually someone will be able to sell you the ticket, and you don't get into trouble inbetween? However in the right I may or may not be, I'm not at all convinced that say a GN RPI between Ely and Cambridge would be happy with the answer that I'm trying to buy an Anglia Plus and that's why I currently have no ticket at all.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

GWR very helpfully provide some enlightening statistics about what is actually being sold at each of their stations. Although a shame for some, it does seem to indicate that products like Rangers and Rovers just add an unnecessary complication to an already crowded ticketing system and in the wider scheme of things, their loss would be extremely insignificant. If there is a genuine business case or need for these sorts of products, the industry will make them 'smart' or like Northern, find a way to retail them without the need for staff assistance.

I find it somewhat amusing that Merseyrail could potentially end up keeping their 60 odd booking offices, staffed first to last train - parts of Merseyside could end up with more than the rest of England combined! Given a station like Bank Hall, it appears to be inaccessible for most with mobility challenges anyway - steep steps down to an island platform - can they really be selling anything more than a £4 return to Liverpool, from first to last train? It's crazy. The only reason Merseytravel has continually resisted forcing full smart ticketing on their Merseyrail concession is because they know it will make mandatory ticket offices and the huge resultant overstaffing unsustainable - and there will be significant political blowback locally removing those jobs.

 

[Red Onion]

If the ticket is not available at the origin, passengers must be allowed through. No ifs, no buts.


Are they accepting people can buy on board or are they erroneously attempting to deny travel?

From that I am assuming that the likes of rovers, rangers etc may not be available from TVMs or these “journey makers”?

 

[Devonian]

Just been looking through my local one, GWR ... show complete closure late 2024 further down the page

Complete closure of all ticket offices by the end of next year in that document is glossed over by the GWR website (https://www.gwr.com/haveyoursay), which states "As these changes take place across our network, we expect some ticket offices to eventually close." (My bold)

It's also at odds with the statement on the same web page that "Cash will continue to be accepted across the network at self-service ticket machines, onboard and where tickets office facilities operate at busy stations and interchanges" (My bold). If the document is correct, no such facilities will exist even at the busiest stations.

I cannot help but note that the only space at my local station where staff could "help customers face-to-face" indoors in inclement weather is ... the ticket hall, which doubles as an inadequate waiting room.

And just how practical for passengers is it to have to seek out a 'multi-skilled' member of staff somewhere on the station - on an unknown platform - rather than knowing they will be at a dedicated point?

A passenger-friendly move? Not really. A staff-friendly move? I doubt it. A DfT money-friendly move? What a surprise.

 

[Anvil1984]

In the case of Sunderland the compliance relates to Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Stations)(England) Regulations 2009, the plans are for the station to only be staffed 0800-1500, yet as the station is underground it's required by law to be staffed whenever it's open.

I believe the consultation only refers to the ticket office / Journey Maker hours. Sunderland would still be staffed by the station supervisors downstairs as at present so that would be legal (as much as I hate to say it)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, and if they start doing so, that's good. But at the moment they don't, Anglia Plus is only available at a ticket office (or on the train, but that's not a lot of use at a barriered penalty fare station) - are the TVMs going to be reprogrammed before the ticket offices close?

I think my general response to these consultations would be that I support the closures in principle (as I'm a taxpayer, so it isn't just about my fares), however I also want to see, as a precondition of any and all closures, a move to a more co-ordinated retail system where all tickets (without exception) are available from TVMs and online, and similarly where all tickets from any sales channel can be modified at any other sales channel. This in practice means moving to a single GBR sales system before the closures (with APIs for e.g. Trainsplit to continue in business if they so wish), which I suspect won't happen

I also think the stations involved are perhaps in some cases badly chosen based on it being a per-TOC thing rather than national. Marylebone or Fenchurch St I get, Southern stations mostly used by commuters similarly, but really the "big three" InterCity London stations need a high quality customer service centre. (That is, Euston, Paddington and Kings Cross).

I believe the consultation only refers to the ticket office / Journey Maker hours. Sunderland would still be staffed by the station supervisors downstairs as at present so that would be legal (as much as I hate to say it)

Correct, from reading the proposals platform staffing is completely out of scope.

 

[MrJeeves]

In contrast to many of the TOCs, they seem to be proposing increasing opening hours - e.g Fratton currently has a ticket office theoretically open 5:55am-7:40pm on a Monday, although it's often closed at those times and they're proposing increasing staffing to 5am-11pm. Portsmouth Harbour goes from 5:50am-7:00pm to apparent 24 hour availability of ticketing staff which seems either incorrect or like they're converting all station staff roles into ticketing roles.

I'm seeing the same with GTR.

Local station (Burgess Hill) shows the same thing: Ticket Office open 6am to 7pm; Ticketing Assistance will now be 5am to 1am.

Clever way to portray it, to be honest.

 

[Goldfish62]

Surprisingly positive changes from SWR, at least at the stations around me (Southampton - Weymouth). While some stations, like Christchurch, lose their afternoon staffing, others like Weymouth improve quite significantly. Stations like Wareham also keep their ticket office as a "Category 1" station. As long as the hours promised are stuck to I would call the changes a net positive, with some unfortunate loses for stations like Pokesdown.

SWR are closing every single ticket office, including Waterloo.

 

[realemil]

c2c appears to be renaming their staff to "Floorwalker"; these are dedicated people for ticketing. Most stations are being left open, with some being reduced hours, other being longer hours (surprisingly).

Staff will also be at stations nearly all night at a fair number of stations (example 06:00 - 02:15), but these are simply "station presence" rather than "Floorwalkers".

Dagenham Dock, Purfleet, and West Horndon will be shut completely.
Limehouse, Rainham, and East Tilbury will only have station staff.
Upminster will have no "Floorwalkers" on Sundays

Their TVMs are cash + card which is good as this will mean an actual replacement for ticket offices.

 

[island]

Bit confused about the Southeastern map. It has the "London" ticket office closures in orange, but in Kent at say Folkestone Central nothing is coloured. Does that means the ticket offices at those stations are staying open?

What's the difference between a ticket office and a travel centre?

Ticket Office Consultation | Southeastern

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

I was also confused about this. Places like Lewisham, Orpington, Sevenoaks etc. where there are currently fairly busy ticket offices are in the same shading as Stone Crossing, Northfleet etc. which are currently card-only TVM.

Seems to me to be a sham consultation. More of a 'fait accompli'. The feedback will either be used (if in favour) to support the decisions that has already been made, or (if not) conveniently ignored.

Inevitably.

I recently travelled to/from Stourbridge Town, in both directions, on multiple occasions.

On the branch itself, there was a staffed ticket office at both Stourbridge stations, neither was well used. No ticket checking at either station. There were also two members of staff on the trains, both in the leading cab, no checking done on board.

Heading to/from the branch, again no ticket checks on the train and no checking at any of the stations I used (including arriving at Birmingham Snow Hill and departing from Snow Hill at popular times, including arriving around 10:30 on a Sat morning!). The ticket office was open on arrival at Snow Hill but it had no custom whatsoever.

All in all I made several journeys to/from Stourbridge Town and tickets were never checked at any point on any of my journeys; there were staff around but I can't help thinking they could be better deployed than is the case at present.

If it was up to me, I would close those ticket offices but have staff actually checking (as well as issuing) tickets; the vast majority of passengers are clearly choosing e-tickets these days and with no ticket checks made whatsoever, the focus should be on checking tickets, than having staff hidden away in offices with hardly any work to do.

I don't want to see job losses; on the contrary I'd like to see an increase in staffing, but in more visible/proactive roles. I've seen TOCS/networks both in this country and abroad that do this well, but other networks/TOCs that do a very bad job and here is an opportunity to change that.

I completely agree. Staff sitting behind glass doing as little as possible need to be redeployed or replaced.

That doesn't prevent screenshotting the tweets and tagging the companies, the DfT and the RDG in on the reply with the screenshot...

Or quote-tweeting.

 

[brad465]

Put displaced staff on the gatelines helping passengers get through our increasingly rebellious ticket gates that reject every other valid ticket, and any money saved from closing offices should be put into making sure self service machines actually bloody work.

 

[Snow1964]

It's also at odds with the statement on the same web page that "Cash will continue to be accepted across the network at self-service ticket machines, onboard and where tickets office facilities operate at busy stations and interchanges" (My bold). If the document is correct, no such facilities will exist even at the busiest stations.

I too struggle when clearly some stations have 25%+ transactions in cash (not card) purchases, they admit many stations have no TVMs accepting cash, then state even big stations like Bristol TM, Paddington & Oxford are closing all ticket offices.

Seems to me going have to seriously ramp up on train ticket inspections if 25%+ can claim only got cash, and of course they get free ride if no one checks ticket on train.

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/Changes-to-Ticket-Retailing-at-GWR-Stations.pdf

I am also confused how telesales will issue tickets at stations where over 50% of tickets are not bought in advance, but are bought just before travelling at the station.

 

[alastair]

Just been looking through my local one, GWR and surprisingly some stations are still over 30% cash rather than card sales. Particularly in holiday areas.

Also appears there are stations like Evesham with over 20% using cash rather than card, but with card only TVMs, presumably that means the 20%+ won't be able to buy tickets before boarding

Also get Stations eg Dawlish, where only 40% of journeys booked online, and other 60% are walk up, bought at station, but just a single TVM

Some eg Bristol Temple Meads are showing the ticket office as reduced windows, but then show complete closure late 2024 further down the page

Document is long, and gives breakdowns for one station per page

https://www.gwr.com/-/media/gwr-sc-website/files/Changes-to-Ticket-Retailing-at-GWR-Stations.pdf

Some of the very detailed stats in that GWR document seem highly suspect. e.g. my local station (Totnes) has supposedly sold only 6 ranger/rovers in a year. There is a very good value Devon Ranger ticket (which cannot be bought from TVM) which I have personally bought at least 4 of at Totnes!

 

[realemil]

WMR: Nuneaton, Shrub Hill, Foregate, Wolverhampton, Walsall, S&D and Sutton Coldfield
LNR: Milton Keynes, Northampton and Watford Junction
will become "one of our new retail and customer service hubs" according to WMT. All other stations not managed by WMT simply link to the operator's website.

All other stations will be managed by a "our new mobile teams will be deployed here on a flexible basis to undertake customer service, passenger assistance, safety and general upkeep duties."

edited for LNR

 

[bramling]

The future of ticket offices, including details of which are proposed to be closed, consultations have been launched. Details appear to be on seperate TOC websites (I will add links as they appear, feel free to post others below and I'll edit them into this post) but there is the following from the RDG to get us started:

Press Release

Proposals to update the railway for how passengers use it today | Rail Delivery Group News

Train companies launch passenger consultation on plans to modernise customer service across the rail network Staff would move out of ticket offices and on station platforms, concourses and ticket halls, adopting new ‘customer help’ roles already in place in many parts of the railway Proposals...

media.raildeliverygroup.com

RDG Consultation Page

Customer Focused Stations

The Rail Delivery Group was set up in 2011 to provide leadership to Britain's rail industry, bringing together the owners of Britain's passenger train operators

www.raildeliverygroup.com

TOC by TOC Consultation Pages

Avanti: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/consultation
c2c: https://www.c2c-online.co.uk/consultation/
Chiltern: https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/ticketofficeproposals
EMR: https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/modernisation-consultation
Greater Anglia: https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/consult
GTR (Southern/Thameslink/Great Northern): https://www.southernrailway.com/about-us/our-commitments/public-consultation
GWR: https://www.gwr.com/haveyoursay
LNER: https://www.lner.co.uk/station-changes
Northern: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/consultation-2023
Southeastern: https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/ticketofficeconsultation
SWR: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/station-change-proposal
TPE: https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/ticket-offices-update
WMT (LNR): https://www.londonnorthwesternrailw...t-the-station/proposed-changes-ticket-offices
WMT (WMR): https://www.westmidlandsrailway.co....t-the-station/proposed-changes-ticket-offices

So a carbon-copy of TFL’s “Fit for the Future”, which has proved to be an unmitigated shambles. Go for it politicians, you know best…

I am growing to absolutely despise politics in this country, including politicians of *all* colours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Put displaced staff on the gatelines helping passengers get through our increasingly rebellious ticket gates that reject every other valid ticket, and any money saved from closing offices should be put into making sure self service machines actually bloody work.

There should certainly be a national scheme for designing a single, consistent, national UI for TVMs and rolling that out to all of them (replacing ones that can't). SBB for instance have that - every TVM works the same way despite there being several manufacturers. That's not that hard, they're basically just PCs in a metal box.

Some of the very detailed stats in that GWR document seem highly suspect. e.g. my local station (Totnes) has supposedly sold only 6 ranger/rovers in a year. There is a very good value Devon Ranger ticket (which cannot be bought from TVM) which I have personally bought at least 4 of at Totnes!

So you bought 4 out of the 6. Doesn't seem utterly implausible. Most people don't have a clue they exist.

 

[crablab]

From that I am assuming that the likes of rovers, rangers etc may not be available from TVMs or these “journey makers”?

Currently most TVMs do not vend them. It remains unclear what tickets these staff will be able to vend.

As it stands, if you cannot obtain a ticket at the origin you can board the train and purchase it at the next available opportunity. If you're in a Penalty Fare area you need to obtain a "promise to pay" first where possible.

 

[DanNCL]

I'm not sure you can read that into what's in the document. As by that logical Sunderland is currently non-compliant in it's opening hours.

I believe the consultation only refers to the ticket office / Journey Maker hours. Sunderland would still be staffed by the station supervisors downstairs as at present so that would be legal (as much as I hate to say it)

I think it's one that needs to be clarified. Other TOCs have used their documents to refer to all station staffing rather than just the new 'Journey Maker' roles so it isn't an unreasonable assumption to make here that Northern are referring to all staffing. I hope to be proven wrong though!

 

[bramling]

Cambridge North yesterday: built without ticket office. Large group struggling to use TVM, blocking access to other machines as staff member tried to help them. Everyone would have been better off with her serving them from behind a desk in the traditional way.

This is exactly what happens on TFL now. Where staff do assist, it turns into a free-for-all if multiple people want assistance, as opposed to an orderly queue where someone serves behind a counter.

 

[A0]

So a carbon-copy of TFL’s “Fit for the Future”, which has proved to be an unmitigated shambles. Go for it politicians, you know best…

I am growing to absolutely despise politics in this country, including politicians of *all* colours.

On what basis is TFL's "Fit for the future" an "unmitigated shambles" ?

Passenger numbers haven't declined - except where Covid played a part. So on what basis are you dismissing it?

 

[bramling]

Plenty of people in the UK work outside and in far more environmentally hostile conditions than on station concourses and platforms, so I don't think clothing is a valid blocker for these proposals.

Hardly the best way to attract people to the role, though, is it?

 

[davews]

Just downloaded the SWR proposal. Are we saying that even with the category 1 stations there will be no physical ticket office? And Reading has a white circle, presumably because that is run by GWR who it seems are closing the one at Reading.
Not impressed with Martins Heron, now 'staffed' just 6am till 10am and nobody at all on Friday and Saturday which are probably the busiest days. No mention whether the waiting room will be open in staffed hours.

 

[156421]

Hardly the best way to attract people to the role, though, is it?

They don't want to attract people to the role. This is an attempt to wear the staff down so that they can resign and not be replaced.

 

[bramling]

On what basis is TFL's "Fit for the future" an "unmitigated shambles" ?

Passenger numbers haven't declined - except where Covid played a part. So on what basis are you dismissing it?

Being completely honest, the running of stations on LU now borders on dysfunctional, to the point where many stations - especially outlying ones - might as well be left to their own devices.

 

[birchesgreen]

Is there any reason why TVMs cannot sell rovers and rangers?

 

[185]

- It's of note that those
Using apps for tickets and information is near 90% for younger people; just 5-10% for the oldest pensioners.

- In 2019, at election those
Voting at 18 was about 80% labour vs 20% conservative whilst those age 75+ about 82% conservative 18% labour.
(statista, 2 big parties only)

So, those who rely on the booking offices most effectively voted to close them.

Besides. In 3 years I can see LNER's cardboard cutout AI woman replacing everyone. Even you.

 

[bramling]

They don't want to attract people to the role. This is an attempt to wear the staff down so that they can resign and not be replaced.

Sadly that seems pretty much spot-on. However people need to realise this when advocating the supposed benefits of having staff in booking halls.