Future of Ticket Office Consultations launched

[156421]

Nor does Sweden or most European countries have people standing on the station to offer advice. The industry needs to save money this half baked approach wont do that albeit I acknowledge others cynicism that its enabler to do so in due course. RMT will fight back whatever's proposed so just get on with closing them full stop and offering them roles for revenue protection.

Isn't it TSSA that "represents" these roles?

Not even the DfT would be stupid enough to suggest conveying any amount of cash by train in 2023!

I don't know if you are trying to mock the DfT as a whole (or particular individuals therein) or the previous poster? But you never know how much farebox income a guard is going to take, especially on routes where lots of people use promise "to pay" dockets. Particularly thinking of lengthy regional routes like the Preston/Lancaster to Carlisle via Barrow trains. Could easily run into the hundreds of pounds if not thousands.

Cash payment is very close to not being a thing in London at all. Everyone pays by card (or phone) in London. You can't even pay cash on a bus - the most "proletarian" thing in the world, just about. A very large number of retailers in London are card only and have been for a long time now, and you get looked at funny in most places if you proffer cash, even if it's accepted. Even buskers have card machines.

Barrow to Ulverston, say, I'd expect a lot of cash. Barrow is a very traditional (and quite poor) place. That's probably why Northern are keeping more open.

As a resident of Barrow I would have to say I find some of these remarks (and those in earlier posts in the thread) fairly insulting and disgusting. Perhaps Northern is planning to keep it open because it can see beyond the end of its nose (a rarity nowadays) that perhaps the Aukus thing means Barrow could actually grow and thrive in the near future, causing increased passenger flows?

 

[SteveM70]

All TOCs have been on fixed management fee contracts since March 2020, with profits/losses going to the Treasury.

The management fee is a profit. Not big as a percentage of turnover, but pretty hefty numbers all the same. There are also performance bonuses

 

[tomuk]

The management fee is a profit. Not big as a percentage of turnover, but pretty hefty numbers all the same. There are also performance bonuses

It a few millions compared to the 100s of millions if not billions of ticket revenue. In the case of First Group if their bus operations were viable and the North American adventure hadn't been a disaster I would expect shareholders would be pressuring management to get rid of the rail side of the business.

 

[Sniffingmoose]

The closure of Burton on Trent ticket office has already begun. 2 of the staff have left over the past year and have not been replaced. Leaving only one member of staff who posts the opening hours each week on the ticket office window. The opening hours change each week.
This is a big loss to passengers because they used to sell well over 50 Derbyshire Wayfarers per day. Anyone who asked for a Day return to Sheffield, Chesterfield or Matlock was sold a Derbyshire Wayfarer as it was much cheaper. Anyone who purchased online or at the TVM paid much more to these destinations.

 

[bramling]

Hang on- you do realise that the overwhelming majority of stations in the UK are totally unstaffed already, some not even with CCTV - and most never have had staff (or certainly not in modern times) - and yet we don't hear of bandits and crooks accosting every man and their dog every day, do we?

Have a look at Tyne & Wear Metro for an example of where totally unstaffed stations work really well from an antisocial behaviour point of view…

Yes there are plenty of unstaffed stations, many of them tend to be in rural areas where there’s less likelihood of issues.

 

[mrd269697]

I wonder will Merseytravel step in to subsidise the Liverpool City Region ones remaining open? After all, they pay a fortune to Merseyrail to keep theirs open rather than to adopt more modern ticketing technologies for their primarily local demand.

I know Northern doesn't operate them, but their site looks much more pessimistic than it otherwise would given that it doesn't include in the list other TOCs' ticket offices that won't close, e.g. Ormskirk (Merseyrail is not a DfT TOC so is not affected). Northern serve a lot of stations that aren't theirs.

The idea of standardising all their booking office times to be the same for remaining offices seems good - that way you know when you can speak to someone. Less so the very messy "Journey Maker" hours!

Must admit there are quite a few on there I didn't know still existed - amazed Parbold still has one for instance, I thought they all closed between Southport and Wigan in the 1990s, I remember Burscough Bridge's closing as a kid (it was only a smelly, dank corner of the eastbound platform building with a tiny window with a bloke with a PORTIS before that).

Out of Northern's, though, I'd be tempted to suggest keeping Grange-over-Sands, Whitehaven and St Anne's on the Sea, simply because of the relatively large number of elderly people who use those three stations in particular, certainly Grange and St Anne's. Plus for Ulverston in my view a footbridge with lifts or ramps is needed before destaffing as otherwise there's no access to the eastbound platform for wheelchair users - that or rebuild it to side platforms with access from the road via a ramp, but I suspect it's listed so they can't.

I’ve lost count of the amount of times you’ve mentioned how much you hate that merseyrail have ticket offices.

The Northern one shows how much of a lie it is that the people in the ticket office are going to be replaced by staff giving 'face to face' help.

Take Huyton, for example. A fairly busy station with a wide variety of customers with various travel needs. Current ticket office hours 0540 to 2359 Monday to Saturday, 0810 to 2335 on Sunday.

Proposed hours for 'journey makers' (ugh!) : 0700 to 1030 Monday to Friday, 0900 to 1230 Saturday, nothing on Sunday. That's a cut of over 80% as to the hours staff will be available.

Anyone with half a brain can see it’s a smokescreen for just cutting staff. The anger I feel towards these proposals is quite disturbing!

 

[GeekyJamez]

Extract from SWR for Category 1 stations:

The locations of category 1 stations ensure that our customers are never too far from a location where a ticket can be purchased from interim additional retailing facilities, while the industry fully transitions to digital ticketing.​

Roughly eighty per cent of customer journeys are through a category 1 station. Offering an enhanced retailing capability at these stations will help us to maintain our service to customers as the industry fully transitions to digital ticketing.​

At these stations, customers will be able to buy standard walk up tickets, all season tickets, warrants and rail vouchers, buy and replace Railcards, and get ticket refunds. Category 1 stations will have interim additional retailing facilities that will be able to provide the ticket types that customers are unable to purchase online or via ticket vending machines.​

Surely this means they will be keeping ticket offices open? That's what was reported on local radio today.

 

[SteveM70]

Another thought. Let’s assume two things:

1 - Labour announce they’re opposed to this (I know, they don’t like being clear on stuff a lot of the time)

2 - Labour win a majority in a general election in autumn 2024

Would all the proposed changes have been made by then? If so, how easily could they be undone?

 

[Geeves]

The only difference with Labour would how fast the changes occur, they are still on board in forcing anyone and anything down the digital route. The green dream requires everything to monitored including all the journeys you make.

The ticket offices remaining have already had certain tickets removed that can be sold, meaning less reason to call in in the first place at least thats the case her in Northern land so its a stay of execution untill 2024 when everything is closed for good

 

[Mabs]

Let's hope these companies provide suitable clothing and shelter for those who'll now be loitering around outside on windswept freezing cold platforms for their shifts. Based on the poor quality stuff we get issued at the moment I can't see that happening! I think staff will leave in droves to be honest.

Il happily take redundancy.

 

[Andrew1395]

It’s not just the staff saving. It’s the release of space for other uses (or mothballing saving running costs). The saving on third party technology - the leasing and maintenance of ticket issuing systems. Staff saving will be the most significant, but other savings will add yo the economics of the proposal.

 

[James H]

Surely this means they will be keeping ticket offices open? That's what was reported on local radio today

read it carefully - more likely to mean roving staff helping people use TVMs while also having access to a desktop TIS to issue obscure tickets as a last resort.

There’s a reason they use weasel words like “interim additional retailing facilities” rather than spelling it out plainly.

 

[Mabs]

Complete closure of all ticket offices by the end of next year in that document is glossed over by the GWR website (https://www.gwr.com/haveyoursay), which states "As these changes take place across our network, we expect some ticket offices to eventually close." (My bold)

It's also at odds with the statement on the same web page that "Cash will continue to be accepted across the network at self-service ticket machines, onboard and where tickets office facilities operate at busy stations and interchanges" (My bold). If the document is correct, no such facilities will exist even at the busiest stations.

I cannot help but note that the only space at my local station where staff could "help customers face-to-face" indoors in inclement weather is ... the ticket hall, which doubles as an inadequate waiting room.

And just how practical for passengers is it to have to seek out a 'multi-skilled' member of staff somewhere on the station - on an unknown platform - rather than knowing they will be at a dedicated point?

A passenger-friendly move? Not really. A staff-friendly move? I doubt it. A DfT money-friendly move? What a surprise.

Most staff will now hide at the end of the platform inside a shelter or in inside their car at the end of the long car park with heating on.

 

[James H]

Really for single staffed stations there needs to be a complete rethink of what a modern “station agent” role could be. Done well and with the right intentions it could be a positive development.

 

[bramling]

It’s not just the staff saving. It’s the release of space for other uses (or mothballing saving running costs). The saving on third party technology - the leasing and maintenance of ticket issuing systems. Staff saving will be the most significant, but other savings will add yo the economics of the proposal.

Though interestingly TFL don’t seem to have done much repurposing of the space occupied by ticket windows. Some stations have gained additional machines, however in many cases there’s just a wall, behind which lies an unused empty room.

 

[ChrisC]

Ok another two from the Midlands I have been told about, how about Stratford Upon Avon and Reddich?

One of them is a major town and a major tourist hub.

Will you not admit this is slightly too drastic?

Both Stratford Upon Avon and Reddich are at the end of branch lines.
A town such as Chesterfield with a population of 88,000 is on a main line.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Are.you saying First Group are making no profit in the railways then? Why are they still operating?


Yes. Not all obviously.

Click some of the toc links in the first post, slide down and select some different stations. The inter regional and suburban operators will give you the best indication.

There are many legitimate arguments and issues about how this is being approached that need to be addressed, and will hopefully feature comprehensively in consultation responses. The one 'red herring' is the profiteering one.

All the time that TOCs carried revenue and cost risk, they were heavily incentivised to ensure that services were kept running and that disputes were settled quickly. Now that the long-campaigned for quasi-nationalisation has taken place the drive is to reduce the ongoing taxpayer support for the railways. Every single penny saved in this exercise will be claimed back by the Government as a reduction in funding support for TOC contracts.

 

[pt_mad]

This is incorrect and has been since covid for all tocs and a good number before that too.

As another poster has suggested, the management fee which the private company extracts is effectively the profit we are alluding to.
Whatever you want to call that, it is still money being stripped out of the system at a time when we are lead to believe costs are so tight that places have to be de-staffed.

The point is, if costs are so tight that even decent size towns need to have permanent staffing removed from their stations, would it not be logical to first take the operations in house to first save the cost of the management fee rather than having some decent sized places lose a permanent staffing presence at their station when they've always had it but still pay out funds to private operators?

What exactly do these private companies bring which is worth the management fee? When ones have handed the keys back before because they haven't been able to extract any money, the operation has continued and the expertise required to run operations has remained.

If they're not pumping private investment in and now cuts are to be made what truly is the point?

Is there some sort of expert strategic role they play which can't be found without them? As it appears to me the DFT and the government make most of the strategic decisions and the management on the ground seem to stay on whoever runs things.

 

[Mabs]

Another backward step by the UK, why is everything about cutting in this country.

Europe is in decline while Asia will become the new Europe in 15 or 20 years time.

 

[JW4]

No idea how I’m supposed to get priv rate tickets without a ticket office. Even New Street is proposed to have it closed.

 

[thedbdiboy]

As another poster has suggested, the management fee which the private company extracts is effectively the profit we are alluding to.
Whatever you want to call that, it is still money being stripped out of the system at a time when we are lead to believe costs are so tight that places have to be de-staffed.

The point is, if costs are so tight that even decent size towns need to have permanent staffing removed from their stations, would it not be logical to first take the operations in house to first save the cost of the management fee rather than having some decent sized places lose a permanent staffing presence at their station when they've always had it?

How would you save that fee? The managers still need to be paid whether public or private - Northern, TPE, LNER and Southeastern still need to be run.
It's very convenient for the class warriors to describe it as 'profit' but it's not - it's a cost.

 

[pt_mad]

How would you save that fee? The managers still need to be paid whether public or private - Northern, TPE, LNER and Southeastern still need to be run.
It's very convenient for the class warriors to describe as 'profit' but it's not - it's a cost.

Are we talking about managers wages?

We are talking about the money paid to private companies handed onto shareholders who might then receive dividends or an increase in share value. Why is it necessary if costs are so tight that ya local town at the end of a line with a population of ,80,000 has to lose its permanent staffing presence?

 

[JW4]

Who’s idea was closing the ticket offices at Birmingham New Street, London Euston, Manchester Piccadilly, Crewe, Glasgow Central, Coventry, Birmingham International, Stafford, Rugby, Stoke-on-Trent etc. why are West Coast Main Line stations being butchered?

On a Birmingham New Street to London Euston fast service, no stations will have a ticket office.

On a Carlisle to Euston, only Wolverhampton will

 

[KGX]

Have a look at Tyne & Wear Metro for an example of where totally unstaffed stations work really well from an antisocial behaviour point of view…

Yes there are plenty of unstaffed stations, many of them tend to be in rural areas where there’s less likelihood of issues.

If you were going to staff those stations for the first time, would you put the staff member in a ticket booth or on a gate line/platform?

 

[tomuk]

No idea how I’m supposed to get priv rate tickets without a ticket office. Even New Street is proposed to have it closed.

I believe you now have a web site you can use and can't your guard collegues sell you a priv?

 

[JW4]

I believe you now have a web site you can use and can't your guard collegues sell you a priv?

I don’t have a one-time passcode

 

[pt_mad]

Seem to recall some time last year when the industrial dispute was being discussed many posters arguing that only a small number of ticket offices.would probably face closure and it would be unlikely that many stations would be unstaffed and the staff would be moved onto standing on platforms at these stations.

Now it appears that the proposals are probably even more drastic than some thought (those who argued that major category A stations would always keep a ticket office), and yet it seems so many sadly still wish to advocate these cuts and even push for them and will them on.

Public service cuts aren't something to want or to be proud of imo. Some would say it is a symbol of decline not progress, in the same way as looking at a recession Vs growth.

Look what's happened with the health service. It's no good in thinking the government have got our best interests at heart and want the best for us, look at their current track record.

We need to stop looking at the railways as a business operation with the main aim of making money and start viewing it as an essential public service.

In fact the more I think about it the more I just cannot believe it. I mean we:re building HS2 because we believe the main line to Manchester is effectively full and are expecting massive growth especially with changes needed re climate change.

And yet it seems to be widely believed that de staffing a whole shed load of stations is going to be the right way forward.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Are we talking about managers wages?

We are talking about the money paid to private companies handed onto shareholders who might then receive dividends or an increase in share value. Why is it necessary if costs are so tight that ya local town at the end of a line with a population of ,80,000 has to lose its permanent staffing presence?

You referred to the management fee in your earlier post. There is no money paid to private companies to 'hand on' to shareholders; the companies are paid a 'management fee' to run the TOC. They (and they alone) have to work out what 'margin' (profit) can be extracted from that fee and added to group revenues but the margin is a tiny amount of the fee (2% or so). Unfortunately in the grand scheme of things that margin won't even touch the sides of the amounts in cost savings that are being sought.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don’t have a one-time passcode

If you have a work email address, send Rail Staff Travel an email with "RST Online Registration" as the subject and your name and home address in the body, and they'll get you set up. (A personal email address may also work, but a work one is easier to verify.)

 

[JW4]

He was right you know