Future plans in Wales

[CapitalStar378]

It's shocking that the City line in Cardiff has no Sunday service and other lines have a bi-hourly service on Sundays. Who put this as a minimum service requirement in the Wales & Borders franchise? It's unbelievable.

And as ATW are not in any way entrepreneurial then that's how it stays, irrespective of the opportunity for more revenue. Cardiff city centre having an unusable rail service on Sundays is hugely adding to traffic congestion.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

If they want the Boxes open then they have to pay the standard rate for that Box. They cannot pay less; a Grade X Box is a Grade X Box, no matter what day it is.

A deal was done by London Midland to open Ledbury box earlier on Sunday to provide earlier and more Hereford - Worcester - Bham services.

(this was then rolled over into the train service specification and has become the norm)

Not really rocket science and in the big picture - not a lot of money - an additional shift in the box - and some incremental unit and train crew costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's shocking that the City line in Cardiff has no Sunday service and other lines have a bi-hourly service on Sundays. Who put this as a minimum service requirement in the Wales & Borders franchise? It's unbelievable.

And as ATW are not in any way entrepreneurial then that's how it stays, irrespective of the opportunity for more revenue. Cardiff city centre having an unusable rail service on Sundays is hugely adding to traffic congestion.

Agreed - well below par for the city / region. One for the consultation period methinks.

 

[Philip]

Surprised to hear mention of a direct service to Leeds from the Marches line - I'd have thought Liverpool and Birmingham would be a bigger market, also currently without a direct train from the Marches.

In terms of the Marches, I'd quite like to see a fast hourly Cardiff-Crewe service formed of 6 coaches (three 2-car 158s) with 2 coaches then splitting and going on to Liverpool and the other 4 to Manchester. Thinking along the lines of a stopping pattern of Newport-Hereford-Shrewsbury-Crewe. There could then be an hourly all-stops service from Cardiff to Shrewsbury, with trains alternating between all stops to Holyhead via Wrexham and all stops to Crewe. All these services could be worked by 158s, thus freeing up 3-car 175s to cover all diagrams of a new 2-hourly semi-fast Holyhead-Birmingham via Stafford service and also to cover all the diagrams of Manchester-North Wales, plus extras for strengthening. The 3-car 175s can stay at Chester, while perhaps you could send the 2-car 175s south to Cardiff Canton, to work Cardiff-West Wales services.

 

[PHILIPE]

Surprised to hear mention of a direct service to Leeds from the Marches line - I'd have thought Liverpool and Birmingham would be a bigger market, also currently without a direct train from the Marches.

In terms of the Marches, I'd quite like to see a fast hourly Cardiff-Crewe service formed of 6 coaches (three 2-car 158s) with 2 coaches then splitting and going on to Liverpool and the other 4 to Manchester. Thinking along the lines of a stopping pattern of Newport-Hereford-Shrewsbury-Crewe. There could then be an hourly all-stops service from Cardiff to Shrewsbury, with trains alternating between all stops to Holyhead via Wrexham and all stops to Crewe. All these services could be worked by 158s, thus freeing up 3-car 175s to cover all diagrams of a new 2-hourly semi-fast Holyhead-Birmingham via Stafford service and also to cover all the diagrams of Manchester-North Wales, plus extras for strengthening. The 3-car 175s can stay at Chester, while perhaps you could send the 2-car 175s south to Cardiff Canton, to work Cardiff-West Wales services.

How would you serve Wellington and Telford with fast trains on a hourly basis ? Although the Alstom Contract for Chester Depot may run out shortly, you cannot, as things stand now, maintain the 175 s anywhere else than at the Alstom Chester Depot..

 

[Philip]

How would you serve Wellington and Telford with fast trains on a hourly basis ? Although the Alstom Contract for Chester Depot may run out shortly, you cannot, as things stand now, maintain the 175 s anywhere else than at the Alstom Chester Depot..

Wellington and Telford are on a separate line. The proposed hourly Cambrian line service will cater for that. Hourly Birmingham-Shrewsbury formed of 4 coaches, then alternating every 2 hours between a portion going to Pwllheli and the other hour to Chester, either via Crewe or Wrexham.

 

[craigybagel]

Surprised to hear mention of a direct service to Leeds from the Marches line - I'd have thought Liverpool and Birmingham would be a bigger market, also currently without a direct train from the Marches.

In terms of the Marches, I'd quite like to see a fast hourly Cardiff-Crewe service formed of 6 coaches (three 2-car 158s) with 2 coaches then splitting and going on to Liverpool and the other 4 to Manchester. Thinking along the lines of a stopping pattern of Newport-Hereford-Shrewsbury-Crewe. There could then be an hourly all-stops service from Cardiff to Shrewsbury, with trains alternating between all stops to Holyhead via Wrexham and all stops to Crewe. All these services could be worked by 158s, thus freeing up 3-car 175s to cover all diagrams of a new 2-hourly semi-fast Holyhead-Birmingham via Stafford service and also to cover all the diagrams of Manchester-North Wales, plus extras for strengthening. The 3-car 175s can stay at Chester, while perhaps you could send the 2-car 175s south to Cardiff Canton, to work Cardiff-West Wales services.

Interesting ideas, but you'd run out of 158s very quickly! I wouldn't say 6 cars is really necessary anyway, contrary to popular belief most services on the Marches do just fine with 3, or in some cases even 2 cars.

Of course at the moment this is really all just crayonism till we know for definite what's happening. Does anybody know when the requirements for the new franchise are likely to be publicised?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Interesting ideas, but you'd run out of 158s very quickly! I wouldn't say 6 cars is really necessary anyway, contrary to popular belief most services on the Marches do just fine with 3, or in some cases even 2 cars.

Of course at the moment this is really all just crayonism till we know for definite what's happening. Does anybody know when the requirements for the new franchise are likely to be publicised?

The behind the scene stuff is being done now hence the thread - as the broad brush detail is being done now and due to be presented in the consultation in 2017. Most would agree that stopping Welsh services at Shresbury and Chester is not wanted and don't want it presented as a fait accompli.

Came back from Aberysystwyth this afternoon women behind bemoaning fact that Cambrian trains no longer run through to Norwich!

In wrong Welsh thread but points valid!

 

[Philip]

Slightly different idea then, how about 158s formed of 2 sets (4 coaches) every hour all stops between Cardiff and Shrewsbury. Split the units at Shrewsbury with one portion to Holyhead, the other to Liverpool comprising the all stops service between Shrewsbury and Crewe.

Then Manchester-Cardiff services can be run separately using 3-car 175s - 7 would be enough to cover all diagrams (if the West Wales services are separate and they run as express). The rest can then be split between Holyhead-Birmingham and Llandudno-Manchester.

 

[jayah]

A deal was done by London Midland to open Ledbury box earlier on Sunday to provide earlier and more Hereford - Worcester - Bham services.

(this was then rolled over into the train service specification and has become the norm)

Not really rocket science and in the big picture - not a lot of money - an additional shift in the box - and some incremental unit and train crew costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---.

This is the sort of deal I was advocating, and it won't be the only one they have done. NR will pay the signallers according to their terms of employment and charging the TOC who will be probably be funded externally. In the context of the £10bn industry turnover, these schemes are worth pennies.

But this doesn't mean the signallers actually get paid pennies - it is a reminder that many TOCs probably spend more than the outline cost - say £20k a year mailing their employees with company newsletters.

 

[PHILIPE]

Slightly different idea then, how about 158s formed of 2 sets (4 coaches) every hour all stops between Cardiff and Shrewsbury. Split the units at Shrewsbury with one portion to Holyhead, the other to Liverpool comprising the all stops service between Shrewsbury and Crewe.

Then Manchester-Cardiff services can be run separately using 3-car 175s - 7 would be enough to cover all diagrams (if the West Wales services are separate and they run as express). The rest can then be split between Holyhead-Birmingham and Llandudno-Manchester.

You haven't said where all the 158s will come from as all but 3 Diagrams are nvolved on the Cambrian. You must back up all suggestions with resources to work them.

 

[Philip]

You haven't said where all the 158s will come from as all but 3 Diagrams are nvolved on the Cambrian. You must back up all suggestions with resources to work them.

Well there are eight 158s going off lease once ScotRail have finished with them, so that ought to cover a fair few, if the 158s head to this franchise. Also if you concentrate all or most of the 2-car 175s in South West Wales, would this not release one or two 158s? Again, if you have 175s covering all North Wales interurban diagrams (as used to be the case until 2008), then this will release at least another two 158s (currently being used on one Manchester-Llandudno diagram and the Crewe-Chester shuttle).

Don't forget with an hourly Cardiff to Chester service and a 2-hourly Holyhead-Birmingham via Stafford, all services out of Birmingham towards Shrewsbury would only need to go to Cambrian places, unlike the current situation of half going towards Chester via Wrexham.

 

[Solaris]

Looks to me like WG are moving toward some form of Light Rail for some of the valley lines...

Metro documents on WG website suggest they want the franchise bidders to innovate and propose solutions that best fit the outputs WG will set out in the procurement process? Quotes from the published Metro brochures...


"The Welsh Government is committed to delivering best value for the taxpayer by incentivising the market to innovate in its choice of routes, services and technologies. The network will be future-proofed so that it can be expanded in future.
We are considering a number of different modes, including traditional heavy rail (diesel and/or electric), light rail and bus rapid transit .
We have appraised the options, but it will be up to the market to propose the solution that best satisfies our objectives"

"Light rail offers a number of unique features in urban and suburban transport. Light rail vehicles (or trams) can carry large numbers of people (200-400) and move easily, either on traditional railway track or on rails placed in streets."


"Because of their very fast and frequent services, light rail systems can experience dramatic increases in patronage. Such networks can then be extended more easily and affordably. This is the model so successfully applied in Manchester over the last 25 years with its regional Metrolink light rail network.

A light rail solution could form the basis of an extendable network. In fact, without it, given the constraints of the current heavy rail network, it would be very difficult to extend the rail network to support the urban expansion of Cardiff to the north west and into Rhondda Cynon Taf, or provide new/additional services to places like Nelson, Hirwaun, Heath Hospital and Crwys Road.

However, this analysis will not prejudice the procurement process, which may result in alternative innovations to meet our requirements."

 

[northwichcat]

Looks to me like WG are moving toward some form of Light Rail for some of the valley lines...

Metro documents on WG website suggest they want the franchise bidders to innovate and propose solutions that best fit the outputs WG will set out in the procurement process? Quotes from the published Metro brochures...


"The Welsh Government is committed to delivering best value for the taxpayer by incentivising the market to innovate in its choice of routes, services and technologies. The network will be future-proofed so that it can be expanded in future.
We are considering a number of different modes, including traditional heavy rail (diesel and/or electric), light rail and bus rapid transit .
We have appraised the options, but it will be up to the market to propose the solution that best satisfies our objectives"

"Light rail offers a number of unique features in urban and suburban transport. Light rail vehicles (or trams) can carry large numbers of people (200-400) and move easily, either on traditional railway track or on rails placed in streets."


"Because of their very fast and frequent services, light rail systems can experience dramatic increases in patronage. Such networks can then be extended more easily and affordably. This is the model so successfully applied in Manchester over the last 25 years with its regional Metrolink light rail network.

A light rail solution could form the basis of an extendable network. In fact, without it, given the constraints of the current heavy rail network, it would be very difficult to extend the rail network to support the urban expansion of Cardiff to the north west and into Rhondda Cynon Taf, or provide new/additional services to places like Nelson, Hirwaun, Heath Hospital and Crwys Road.

However, this analysis will not prejudice the procurement process, which may result in alternative innovations to meet our requirements."

Maybe a high floor version of tram-trains being procured for Sheffield could be an option?

 

[craigybagel]

Well there are eight 158s going off lease once ScotRail have finished with them, so that ought to cover a fair few, if the 158s head to this franchise. Also if you concentrate all or most of the 2-car 175s in South West Wales, would this not release one or two 158s? Again, if you have 175s covering all North Wales interurban diagrams (as used to be the case until 2008), then this will release at least another two 158s (currently being used on one Manchester-Llandudno diagram and the Crewe-Chester shuttle).
.

Crewe Chester shuttle is a 150 now, has been for a few years. If you get in any other 158s they'd need fitting with ERTMS unless you wanted to diagram two separate fleets. Even if you did get the Scotrail 8 and modified them, and added the 3 current Non Cambrian 158s you're still a long way short of what you need.

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't think you could really plan seriously for Wales for the future until the details of the new Franchise are made known in 2017. So much would depend on the routes ATW would be operating.

 

[Gareth Marston]

You haven't said where all the 158s will come from as all but 3 Diagrams are nvolved on the Cambrian. You must back up all suggestions with resources to work them.

Certainly getting those 3 diagrams back into the fold is a priority.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looks to me like WG are moving toward some form of Light Rail for some of the valley lines...

Metro documents on WG website suggest they want the franchise bidders to innovate and propose solutions that best fit the outputs WG will set out in the procurement process? Quotes from the published Metro brochures...


"The Welsh Government is committed to delivering best value for the taxpayer by incentivising the market to innovate in its choice of routes, services and technologies. The network will be future-proofed so that it can be expanded in future.
We are considering a number of different modes, including traditional heavy rail (diesel and/or electric), light rail and bus rapid transit .
We have appraised the options, but it will be up to the market to propose the solution that best satisfies our objectives"

"Light rail offers a number of unique features in urban and suburban transport. Light rail vehicles (or trams) can carry large numbers of people (200-400) and move easily, either on traditional railway track or on rails placed in streets."


"Because of their very fast and frequent services, light rail systems can experience dramatic increases in patronage. Such networks can then be extended more easily and affordably. This is the model so successfully applied in Manchester over the last 25 years with its regional Metrolink light rail network.

A light rail solution could form the basis of an extendable network. In fact, without it, given the constraints of the current heavy rail network, it would be very difficult to extend the rail network to support the urban expansion of Cardiff to the north west and into Rhondda Cynon Taf, or provide new/additional services to places like Nelson, Hirwaun, Heath Hospital and Crwys Road.

However, this analysis will not prejudice the procurement process, which may result in alternative innovations to meet our requirements."

I wouldn't **** about too much with current heavy rail in s Wales the stations in Csrdoff serve the retail, leasiure and commercial centre quite well, you'll need the light rail to join up the parts of Cardiff that are poorly served on an east to west axis where heavy rail doesn't run.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think you could really plan seriously for Wales for the future until the details of the new Franchise are made known in 2017. So much would depend on the routes ATW would be operating.

The point is services and patterns need to get on the menu now if we wait we'll be given a a choice of something that will leave a bad taste in the mouth.

 

[Philip]

Crewe Chester shuttle is a 150 now, has been for a few years. If you get in any other 158s they'd need fitting with ERTMS unless you wanted to diagram two separate fleets. Even if you did get the Scotrail 8 and modified them, and added the 3 current Non Cambrian 158s you're still a long way short of what you need.

Just on the point of the Crewe-Chester shuttle, would it not make more sense to put a 175 back on it? With the fairly poor reliability of the 175s it'd be useful having a unit there on light duties to rescue any failed units/services - either on the Coast line or the Marches.

 

[PHILIPE]

Just on the point of the Crewe-Chester shuttle, would it not make more sense to put a 175 back on it? With the fairly poor reliability of the 175s it'd be useful having a unit there on light duties to rescue any failed units/services - either on the Coast line or the Marches.

It's a good idea but could you spare one. It used to be 158 worked but had to be changed to a 150 because of the need to deploy the 158 elsewhere.

 

[northwichcat]

It's a good idea but could you spare one. It used to be 158 worked but had to be changed to a 150 because of the need to deploy the 158 elsewhere.

Pre-December 2008 the shuttle was half-hourly so required 2 units but the introduction of an hourly Chester to Euston service allowed ATW to cut back the service to hourly and freed up a unit to use elsewhere.

 

[6Gman]

Just on the point of the Crewe-Chester shuttle, would it not make more sense to put a 175 back on it? With the fairly poor reliability of the 175s it'd be useful having a unit there on light duties to rescue any failed units/services - either on the Coast line or the Marches.

I think the Manchester - Cardiff passengers offered a 150 vice a 175 might not be wildly happy!

 

[Philip]

Every 2 hours it ran to Holyhead all stops. This made more sense than the current arrangement running from Brum via Wrexham. One of the Manchester-South Wales services used to be booked as a 158 initially, freeing up a 175 for the shuttle. A bit off topic, but it's not a good situation when the dynamic brake has to be isolated in order to prevent the gearbox overheating on these units. Are the 175 disc brakes coping well with regular braking from 90/100 mph running?

 

[craigybagel]

Those days are long gone. 175s are very reliable now. I spend about 90% of my working hours on them, and in over 2 years I've not had a single failure. If anything it's the 158s that give trouble.
If you're going to use a 150 anywhere, at least on the Chester shuttle the passengers are only on board for 22 minutes at a time so it'd be a waste to use something more luxurious, especially when as 6Gman pointed out it'd mean replacing the 175 on something like a Manchester Cardiff.

 

[Philip]

On a slightly different point, why on earth are some Manchester-South Wales services stopping at Alderley Edge on Sundays?

 

[northwichcat]

On a slightly different point, why on earth are some Manchester-South Wales services stopping at Alderley Edge on Sundays?

Maybe down to the Crewe-Piccadilly stoppers not running due to engineering works on Sundays at the moment.

Although, I'm not entirely sure why ATW have decided to stop services at Alderley Edge (which they don't normally call at) but when they diverted North Wales to Manchester services via the Mid-Cheshire line last Sunday they didn't even stop them at Stockport (which they do have calling rights for.)

 

[Greybeard33]

Maybe down to the Crewe-Piccadilly stoppers not running due to engineering works on Sundays at the moment.

Although, I'm not entirely sure why ATW have decided to stop services at Alderley Edge (which they don't normally call at) but when they diverted North Wales to Manchester services via the Mid-Cheshire line last Sunday they didn't even stop them at Stockport (which they do have calling rights for.)

Especially since, due to the Sunday engineering works closing Edgeley Junction No.1 (on-going for the next two weeks) the Manchester-S Wales services were/will be diverted via Styal and so unable to call at Stockport. Virgin & XC services are all also diverted via Styal, with the Northern Crewe stoppers all bustituted to make room. So the bi-hourly Northern Chester service is the only through service stopping at Stockport.

For the next two Sundays the Crewe-Shrewsbury line is again closed as well, with the S Wales services further diverted via Chester and Wrexham, although there is no information on NRE or the ATW website.

However, the ATW Sunday Alderley Edge calls (two per day each way) seem to be in the normal Working Timetable, so are unrelated to the engineering works.

 

[edwin_m]

Crewe Chester shuttle is a 150 now, has been for a few years. If you get in any other 158s they'd need fitting with ERTMS unless you wanted to diagram two separate fleets. Even if you did get the Scotrail 8 and modified them, and added the 3 current Non Cambrian 158s you're still a long way short of what you need.

A lot of units will need fitting with ERTMS in the next few years so getting a few more for ATW or its successor is not as big a problem as it might first appear. The design already exists and there is scope to tack them onto some other operator's order.

 

[craigybagel]

On a slightly different point, why on earth are some Manchester-South Wales services stopping at Alderley Edge on Sundays?

However, the ATW Sunday Alderley Edge calls (two per day each way) seem to be in the normal Working Timetable, so are unrelated to the engineering works.

Indeed, it's a permanent change. And no, we don't know why either.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Won't be too long before Alderley Edge Town Council will be complaining about their rail services being controlled from Cardiff

 

[Class 170101]

Especially since, due to the Sunday engineering works closing Edgeley Junction No.1 (on-going for the next two weeks) the Manchester-S Wales services were/will be diverted via Styal and so unable to call at Stockport. Virgin & XC services are all also diverted via Styal, with the Northern Crewe stoppers all bustituted to make room. So the bi-hourly Northern Chester service is the only through service stopping at Stockport.

Not quite seeing what rights Virgin, XC and ATW have to do that to Northern. If I was a Northern customer I think I would be pretty hacked off.

 

[northwichcat]

Not quite seeing what rights Virgin, XC and ATW have to do that to Northern. If I was a Northern customer I think I would be pretty hacked off.

Looking at the workings at Stockport tomorrow: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SPT/2016/01/17/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

It seems all operators who usually serve Stockport are providing replacement buses/coaches with two exceptions: ATW and TPE.

Why ATW aren't stopping their diverted North Wales to Manchester services at Stockport when their South Wales to Manchester services aren't able to call at Stockport is strange. It could put their own customers off travelling - someone going from North Wales to Stockport might not be too happy about the train taking a longer route via Stockport and then having to go back to Stockport on another train when there's a reduced frequency service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Won't be too long before Alderley Edge Town Council will be complaining about their rail services being controlled from Cardiff

Alderley Edge would need a charter to become a town before they get a town council.