Future ticket gating

[HH]

The reason why ticket gates at York would almost certainly work (presuming you could get consents) is that on train ticket checks are not as effective as they could be, which could be due to problems getting through the train, time between stops, or other reasons why tickets are not checked. Gates at similar stations have always more than paid for themselves.

Carlisle is a different matter, as the business case would be more problematic due to lower revenue. It might pay; it might not. My guess is that it would be borderline.

 

[142094]

The thing with Carlisle is that it would be relatively easy, due to the fact there is only one entrance open most of the time. With York, you'd have to figure out a way of either barriering all of the main entrance, then trying to close off both the access to platform 3/4 from the short stay car park, the access from the long stay car park at the south of the station, and on top of all that the access from the NRM.

 

[scarby]

How do you know that they get by perfectly well? Facts and figures please.

It's a fair question and I don't have any figures (knowing how many people successfully fare evade is hard to calculate by its very nature in any case).

The key issue IMHO is whether it's worth operating stations/station platforms as a sophisticated and expensive electronic fortress, which also needs to be manned, in an attempt to reduce fare evasion to as close to zero as possible.

Unfortunately even this system is not watertight against fare evaders, e.g. adults buying child tickets, buying tickets/season tickets short of stop in the knowledge that the destination in one direction is unbarriered, "rushing" through the barrier behind someone with a ticket, finding other ways out of the station, or the barriers simply having to be left open at certain times.

On top of that are issues of crowding at gates particularly on arriving trains and issues with access to platforms for those who want to help friends/family with luggage or simply see them onto the train.

The European, and particularly "German" system, where even U-bahn and S-bahn are unbarriered and bus drivers also make no checks, relies on ticket inspectors on inter-city trains and plain clothes random checks on local trains, trams and buses with spot fines. One of the key strengths of the checks is not only the spot fine but the potential public embarrassment to a fare evader who hasn't got the gall simply to front this out.

I guess they take the view that although some will almost certainly try to abuse this, resources are better used elsewhere then going to the huge trouble and expense of completely re-casting the system to a barrier one. And they may well indeed also consider a barrier system to be financially worthless and generally less desirable.

 

[jon0844]

Relying purely on enforcement works if;

a) There are sufficient numbers of people to enforce at ALL times and in any situation. No doubt the revenue officers abroad are dressed more like police than friendly approachable staff members.

b) The penalty is sufficient to make it not worth the risk. No discretion, no talking your way out of it..

c) Society has the mindset that fare evasion isn't right, so being caught will indeed embarrass you. It's no good having a train full of passengers giving the guard/revenue officer a hard time for being a 'jobsworth' or believing that it's not really a problem to avoid paying and we'd all do it if given half a chance.

Get all of that right and you can get rid of gates. As it won't happen here, I think we'll need to adopt the secure route to turn our railway into a fortress!

 

[HH]

Exactly. It may or may not work in some places; I believe that fare evading is much more frowned upon in much of Europe. What is absolutely known however is that without gating ticketless travel can reach very high levels in UK.

One of the reasons why gating is such a success is that on board methods of ticket issuing and checking leave a lot to be desired. In general staff appear to do just enough to avoid being pulled up. This can be seen when you compare the figures from the best against the average. I don't blame the average member of staff for this, they're only doing what people do everywhere - the bare minimum - if they can get away with it. It's poor management that fails to train, engage and reward the staff appropriately.

However even with much better manual checks, at high volume locations automatic gates will always do a bette rjob with fewer staff.

 

[jon0844]

I do feel for some staff, who really do need to be very proactive and often quite harsh on passengers, but then they risk being assaulted and other problems.

If you've allowed things to get to the point where some people show contempt for the railway and will do as they please, from fare evasion to causing a fuss, harassing other passengers, smoking, taking over first class etc (more a problem in DOO land than on trains with guards mind you) then it's now going to be quite hard to get staff to clamp down.

Perhaps another solution is to boost the BTP numbers and have them going around doing ticket enforcement, with the power to detain and arrest (and no doubt find that habitual fare evaders will also be of interest to the police in other ways). That would cost a lot, but would go a long way to restoring faith in the honest travellers - and even making them feel a lot safer travelling in general.

As with many things I say, I already know it won't happen but feel compelled to write it anyway!

 

[SS4]

c) Society has the mindset that fare evasion isn't right, so being caught will indeed embarrass you. It's no good having a train full of passengers giving the guard/revenue officer a hard time for being a 'jobsworth' or believing that it's not really a problem to avoid paying and we'd all do it if given half a chance.

Good luck getting the Press to agree with you

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Perhaps another solution is to boost the BTP numbers and have them going around doing ticket enforcement, with the power to detain and arrest (and no doubt find that habitual fare evaders will also be of interest to the police in other ways). That would cost a lot, but would go a long way to restoring faith in the honest travellers - and even making them feel a lot safer travelling in general.

I think that is an excellent idea.

As with many things I say, I already know it won't happen but feel compelled to write it anyway!

Shouldn't be so pessimistic. Write to your MP and suggest it. I'm sure if enough people started lobbying, eventually something like that could happen.

 

[jon0844]

I know it's a total get-out, but I really don't have the time to get a campaign like this off the ground. My MP is probably quite busy, being the Housing Minister. Now if only he was involved in transport!

I may find 5-10 minutes here and there to come on here and post (when a lot of people would take a cigarette break) but I'm far too busy. I'd fully support such a campaign of course, but that's not really the same thing.

The closest I got to suggesting late night enforcement was meeting the MD of FCC in 2006, and getting total agreement that it was a good idea. However, there was (and still is) going to be an issue with 'duty of care' for staff and that's probably why it only happens with prepared stings with police backup.

I'm a realist.. I really do think it won't happen. Unless I become PM!

 

[stut]

I would add

d) If you're going to have huge, non-negotiable fines, the fares system needs to be simple, transparent, and lacking in grey areas. Fares on the continent, by and large, fall into this category. Here? Well, I can think of many, many occasions where I've been told my ticket isn't valid when it very much was.

 

[Lampshade]

I would add

d) If you're going to have huge, non-negotiable fines, the fares system needs to be simple, transparent, and lacking in grey areas. Fares on the continent, by and large, fall into this category. Here? Well, I can think of many, many occasions where I've been told my ticket isn't valid when it very much was.

Plus, the punishment on the continent for fare evasion is simple - either buy a ticket (and validate it) or big fine.