• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

GA letter to Therese Coffey MP re v poor Felixtowe service recently

Status
Not open for further replies.

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
671
Location
london
Attached in case anyone is interested is a letter from GA following complaints by the MP for Suffolk Coastal (inc Felixtowe) regarding the v poor service over recent months.

During the period when GA had a shortage of diesel units in the new year the Felixtowe service was on a number of days cancelled entirely, and on many days, at least 20 I think, the unit diagrams were re-jigged with one return trip, 0825 from Ipswich, cancelled.

One statement in particular jumped out at me: "We do not supply alternative transport if the next train is within an hour, because that will incur greater delay to passengers than catching the next train. It is about minimising disruption for people. It is not a cost issue."

Does anyone believe that if they were really concerned about minimising disruption, cost no object, they would not provide taxis? You would only need a few people carriers to fit the number of passengers on most trips on that route, and in a big town like Ipswich they would presumably be available at short notice and get passengers to destination much quicker than waiting an hour for next train.

Personally I think the letter reeks of complacency.
 

Attachments

  • Therese Coffey GA letter.JPG
    Therese Coffey GA letter.JPG
    91.6 KB · Views: 205
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
73,281
Location
Yorkshire
Thanks, however unfortunately the font is very small so it's not readable.

Is there any way to upload a version that would also be accessible to our blind members too? I appreciate that's not always easy to do though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone believe that if they were really concerned about minimising disruption, cost no object, they would not provide taxis?.
Agreed. I have no issue with such a policy as clearly it's not good value for taxpayers to arrange for taxis when the delay is no more than an hour. They should just say that though instead of making up an excuse that doesn't seem to make sense.
 

user15681

Established Member
Joined
3 Jun 2012
Messages
1,354
For those unable to read it I've quickly typed it up.

Dear Therese

Felixstowe line services - correspondence

Thank you for your letter attaching correspondence from (name blanked) about Felixstowe services. I'm pleased to answer the points raised.

Let me first reiterate that we are very sorry that the performance on the route has not always been as consistent as customers would rightly expect and we intend to deliver, although, I'm pleased to report that we are now starting to see some improvements again, with punctuality up to 86% now.

As we have discussed, the problems were predominantly due to the impact of infrastructure or freight train issues on the passenger services (including on some occasions congestion or other incidents in the Port of Felixstowe itself). We have taken these issues up with the directors' team at Network Rail Anglia, as part of our alliance partnership and a more punctual and reliable service is now being delivered more consistently.

As you know, the single line nature of the infrastructure, which is not suitable for the volume and type of rail traffic it currently carries, is a constraint, which we are all trying to address by seeking investment to increase capacity.

The issues are frustrating, problematic and inconvenient, but very real and, as they are mainly linked to infrastructure and freight trains, not ones which can be solved overnight or by the passenger train operator alone. In fact, we have lobbied (?) hard to Network Rail and others with your help to secure infrastructure upgrades.

Turning to the fleet availability challenges we suffered during February and March, I'm pleased to report that these have now been overcome and we have not suffered similar problems over the last month.

On the other points raised by (name blanked) we do not supply alternative transport if the next train is within an hour, because that will incur greater delay to passengers than catching the next train. It is about minimising disruption for people. It is not a cost issue.

On the question of train crew deployment, I should explain that the schedules are neither inefficient, nor lacking resilience and this factor has minimal impact on cancellations and service problems. In fact there has been hardly any disruption or problems due to this reason (4 train cancellations in 12 months).

Continued...

Turning to the question of the trains themselves, the services are scheduled to be operated by a single carriage class 153 train. For most services, a single carriage is sufficient, though certain services would be better with a two carriage train. However, unfortunately, there are currently no suitable spare diesel trains available on the UK rail network at the moment. In the longer term we would hope that can be addressed, but it is unlikely to be possible until we are into the long Greater Anglia franchise from October 2016 onwards.

Nevertheless, to support train availability across our local routes we have invested in using a short locomotive hauled train set to provide cover on some services - a very expensive option, but the only one around and one that demonstrates our real commitment to providing the best service. We won't cover that investment from any angle, either in fares or any regulatory compensation. It's a true commitment on our part to providing the best possible service for the customers and communities we serve and apart from a brief period in February and March (when a mix of weather-related damage and fatalities caused extra problems with unit availability) has worked well in protecting service reliability.

Turning to the mainline to London, in actual fact there hasn't been a significant increase in delays due to the performance of the trains. They continue to be generally very reliable and the heavy maintenance and refresh programme they are undergoing should maintain that position for the next 5 years. Decisions on the long term rolling stock to be used on the intercity services will be taken as part of the Greater Anglia long franchise process which will see a new long franchise start in October 2016.

The work of the Norwich in Ninety Taskforce is looking at the best ways of improving journey times and line speeds along the Great Eastern Main Line (GEML), but what is crucial is that their recommendations are followed by the necessary investment commitments in terms of both rolling stock through the franchising process and infrastructure through government and Network Rail.

As we have discussed, we are keen to see infrastructure upgrades for both the GEML and Felixstowe - Nuneaton route, as they would benefit both passengers and freight operations. We are therefore doing all we can, in partnership with stakeholders, to try and secure the decisions and investment by Network Rail that would enable these schemes to be progressed as soon as possible.

If you have any other questions on the issue or any other rail matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely,
Jonathan Denby
Head of Corporate Affairs
 
Last edited:

richw

Veteran Member
Joined
10 Jun 2010
Messages
11,528
Location
Liskeard
I'm assuming due to process and getting cost signed off is what causes the delays in altrnative transport.

Knowing large companies process for getting any expenditure will involve endless forms, having an appropriate mandate holder, or two to sign off the spend.

And once that's done is finding an operator to provide the service.

It isn't as simple as hailing a taxi, as they will need a credit account with the operator of the taxi, to avoid needing to pay immediately, which isn't possible for any large company without an employee paying and claiming back on expenses later.
 

LateThanNever

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
1,027
I'm assuming due to process and getting cost signed off is what causes the delays in altrnative transport.

Knowing large companies process for getting any expenditure will involve endless forms, having an appropriate mandate holder, or two to sign off the spend.

And once that's done is finding an operator to provide the service.

It isn't as simple as hailing a taxi, as they will need a credit account with the operator of the taxi, to avoid needing to pay immediately, which isn't possible for any large company without an employee paying and claiming back on expenses later.

Problems have solutions as they say - and if you are not running trains on 20 occasions over a short period then you can surely organise payment for an alternative!
Can't GA be hauled up by whoever granted the franchise for their failures?
 
Joined
14 Aug 2012
Messages
1,070
Location
Stratford
Problems have solutions as they say - and if you are not running trains on 20 occasions over a short period then you can surely organise payment for an alternative!
Can't GA be hauled up by whoever granted the franchise for their failures?

Its not always GA fault on that line, freight always gets priority especially if its backed up due to incidents elsewhere

At some point in the future this line might be closed to passenger trains
 

LateThanNever

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
1,027
Its not always GA fault on that line, freight always gets priority especially if its backed up due to incidents elsewhere

At some point in the future this line might be closed to passenger trains

Bit radical this - but on the grounds that a late service is better than none can't the Passenger trains be attached to freights where necessary to minimise the number of paths?
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
no - no they cant

What they said really. Probably could in some technical way but then it would just delay the freight even more and slow whatever was behind it too leading to increased costs for attributed minutes.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,153
Bit radical this - but on the grounds that a late service is better than none can't the Passenger trains be attached to freights where necessary to minimise the number of paths?

It would be fun to see 700m of train arrive at Town station. And even more fun to see it get back out!
 

LateThanNever

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
1,027
It would be fun to see 700m of train arrive at Town station. And even more fun to see it get back out!

As you say!
But then we were told that the whole point of privatisation was to take on some of that private enterprise 'can do' attitude rather than put it in the British Rail 'too hard to do' box!!
 

Pugwash

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2011
Messages
333
Given the number of freight trains that use the line already and with further growth planned, it really could do with being double track (and OHL ).
 

ac6000cw

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2014
Messages
3,447
Location
Cambridge, UK
Given the number of freight trains that use the line already and with further growth planned, it really could do with being double track (and OHL ).

It certainly needs some better infrastructure, like another passing loop between Derby Road and Trimley, and maybe bi-directional signalling for both tracks on the East Suffolk Junction to Westerfield section to allow more flexibility/overtaking when things don't run to plan (as seems to happen frequently).

I only usually get the chance to ride the branch on Saturdays, and even then (when freight movements are fewer than on weekdays) the passenger delays can accumulate to the point where a round trip has to be skipped to bring things back on schedule.

NR really need to get a grip on this - they get the money from the track access charges (from 60 freight trains per weekday!), so they should be investing some of it on providing 'fit for purpose' infrastructure on one of the most important freight lines in the UK.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,154
Location
Fenny Stratford
As you say!
But then we were told that the whole point of privatisation was to take on some of that private enterprise 'can do' attitude rather than put it in the British Rail 'too hard to do' box!!

Can do attitude or not the laws of physics still apply - It is very expensive to accelerate a heavy freight train fro ma standing start to line speed then slam on the anchors and start all over again!
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,153
NR really need to get a grip on this - they get the money from the track access charges (from 60 freight trains per weekday!), so they should be investing some of it on providing 'fit for purpose' infrastructure on one of the most important freight lines in the UK.

It is one of the most important freight lines in the UK. It is also patently fit for purpose as such. It is well to remember that Hutchinson Port have a planning commitment to double most of the branch, which they have consistently tried to get out of for at least 7 years.

Playing Devil's advocate, the branch could accommodate all the freight traffic forecast with the planned expansion of the port if the Felixstowe passenger service was turned peak only. So what is better for UK plc (or even Suffolk plc) - spending upwards of £50m to, effectively, enable a continued hourly passenger service on the branch off peak, or spend practically nothing by asking the passengers affected to get the bus? (Which for most journeys is actually quicker and more convenient, according to the locals I know up there).
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,393
As long as (a) my rail ticket would be valid on the bus when there were no trains and (b) there is a bus service all day every day and not just between 9 and 5 Monday to Saturday.
 

LateThanNever

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
1,027
It is one of the most important freight lines in the UK. It is also patently fit for purpose as such. It is well to remember that Hutchinson Port have a planning commitment to double most of the branch, which they have consistently tried to get out of for at least 7 years.

Playing Devil's advocate, the branch could accommodate all the freight traffic forecast with the planned expansion of the port if the Felixstowe passenger service was turned peak only. So what is better for UK plc (or even Suffolk plc) - spending upwards of £50m to, effectively, enable a continued hourly passenger service on the branch off peak, or spend practically nothing by asking the passengers affected to get the bus? (Which for most journeys is actually quicker and more convenient, according to the locals I know up there).

As you say. The port should be forced to comply with their commitment.

Meanwhile perhaps for those who prefer not to get the bus we could have a special car attached to all Ipswich Felixstowe trains to enable passengers to ride the freight train US style but in better comfort. Could even be part of the next franchise requirement...:D
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
....Does anyone believe that if they were really concerned about minimising disruption, cost no object, they would not provide taxis?.....

If cost was no object railways would have thousands of spare units sitting in vast arrays of sidings at every station, filled to the brim with staff eager to help out at a moments notice. It would have branch lines that are six track and bi-directional to boot, with signal boxes and junctions every 50 yards so trains can 'overtake' when they need to.

Cost is an issue, logistics is an issue.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
17,888
Location
East Anglia
Why all the fuss suddenly? Felixstowe branch has always been a hit & miss service for the passengers with freight taking priority. Can't see why it will change anytime soon.
 

Sir_Clagalot

Member
Joined
9 Aug 2007
Messages
853
IIRC there was uproar when an express bus was proposed for off peak times!! I have been along there and the A14 has been a car park due to an accident, the trains I worked were busier than usual as people turned to the only viable alterantive!! An express bus that gets stuck in traffic isn't much good, plus the train can do 75mph, which a bus cannot.

Doubling the line from Derby Road to Trimley would be the best way of increasing capacity on there
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,498
Location
Norwich
I must agree with some of the posters. I personally feel the Felixstowe service really should go to a peak and weekends only sort of thing, along their freight is (and rightly so) king.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,658
A Peak and weekends service is worthless.
Might as well just stop lying that there is a passenger railway and close it completely.

Also I debate the value of the freight service considering it is propped up by massive subsidies anyway.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,658
... a bit like the railway in general then?

The general railway produces recognisable social goods - it is hard to see what those goods are in the case of freight operations that only exist because of massive subsidies.

Additionally freight operation 'farebox recovery' has collapsed since privatisation as a result of these subsidies and is now worse than that of the passenger railway in many cases. A passenger railway to a town of 30,000 should not be abandoned so that more subsidy junkie freight operations can be run on a track to generate income for an industry that has repeatedly failed to live up to its commitments.

If Hutchinson Port has attempted to get out of it - take them to court and make them pay.
That or simply deny requests for any additional paths to the dock and eliminate existing paths as the contracts that grant them expire (if NR has the authority to do that that is)
 
Last edited:

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,468
Location
Somewhere
The general railway produces recognisable social goods - it is hard to see what those goods are in the case of freight operations that only exist because of massive subsidies.

Is there no environmental or road traffic benefits? No benefit is transporting 50+ containers in one move? No employment benefit?
 

Pugwash

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2011
Messages
333
A Peak and weekends service is worthless.
Might as well just stop lying that there is a passenger railway and close it completely.

Also I debate the value of the freight service considering it is propped up by massive subsidies anyway.

Felixtowe really could do with a better service to boost the town, moving to half hourly would I am sure drive demand.

The value of the freight service is in the huge number of lorries it takes off of the A14, if those containers were to go onto the A14 which is already full of lorries the government would need to spend a fortune upgrading the road.

In this context dualling the short section of track to provide many more freight paths and more passenger paths seems a rather good investment.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
18,658
Is there no environmental or road traffic benefits?

Environmental benefits are negligible for such a small amount of tonne miles.
There are also potentially other options for moving containers to Midlands distribution depots, especially in light of programmed investments in the MSC that would enable Coasters better access to at least one major market.

Rail freight in the UK cannot compete outside a handful of markets like bulk minerals and goods like steel. Especially now it is considered the 'equal' of passenger trains and not something done on a marginal cost basis as it once was.

No employment benefit?

Classic economic theory would note that since this is a deliberately more expensive option then there must be a net loss in the economy and thus a net loss of jobs. (This is a response to the 'broken window fallacy').

For one thing you have just replaced 50 lorry drivers with one train driver so that is a loss of something like 49 jobs before you even go into the wider economic issues.
 
Last edited:

JGR

Member
Joined
31 Jan 2012
Messages
147
Location
Ipswich
Environmental benefits are negligible for such a small amount of tonne miles.
This may be less true if you happen to live/travel on one of the miles in question.

For one thing you have just replaced 50 lorry drivers with one train driver so that is a loss of something like 49 jobs before you even go into the wider economic issues.
Economic productivity is not linear with the number of jobs.

More jobs is not automatically better when the actual productive output (ie. moving x containers from A to B) is the same.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top