Gatwick Express validity on "Not Valid on HS1" ticket

[jacksonbang]

Hello,

Yesterday I purchased a super-off peak ticket from Rye to London Terminals with the HS1 restriction (I travelled via Ashford Intl to London Charing Cross).

On my return journey I was meeting someone at Gatwick Airport so I left from London Victoria and attempted to board the Gatwick Express and was immediately told I could not use any High Speed trains. My ironic comment on the concept of the GX being High Speed was lost on the gate person and I asked how I was supposed to be able to tell from the ticket as I was on a valid route back to Rye (via Polegate) and, as if I was crazy, she pointed to the "Not Valid on HS1" statement.

When I replied that this was not HS1, she basically said "This is a high speed train, it only takes 30 minutes, you must buy another ticket or get another train" and proceeded to ignore me (it was busy).

I went to the ticket office and was given the same explanation. I explained, again, that HS1 was not this line and was told it meant all high speed trains. At this point I realised it was not worth arguing and went to the platforms offering non-GX services to the airport.

I am no expert on train travel but even looking at the F4 restriction on the ticket there is no reference to Gatwick Express.

How, if I am on a legitimate route, can I have known that I cannot use GX and, if I am correct, how can I prove that I can use the service in the future?

Thanks

 

[JamesRowden]

Hello,

Yesterday I purchased a super-off peak ticket from Rye to London Terminals with the HS1 restriction (I travelled via Ashford Intl to London Charing Cross).

On my return journey I was meeting someone at Gatwick Airport so I left from London Victoria and attempted to board the Gatwick Express and was immediately told I could not use any High Speed trains. My ironic comment on the concept of the GX being High Speed was lost on the gate person and I asked how I was supposed to be able to tell from the ticket as I was on a valid route back to Rye (via Polegate) and, as if I was crazy, she pointed to the "Not Valid on HS1" statement.

When I replied that this was not HS1, she basically said "This is a high speed train, it only takes 30 minutes, you must buy another ticket or get another train" and proceeded to ignore me (it was busy).

I went to the ticket office and was given the same explanation. I explained, again, that HS1 was not this line and was told it meant all high speed trains. At this point I realised it was not worth arguing and went to the platforms offering non-GX services to the airport.

I am no expert on train travel but even looking at the F4 restriction on the ticket there is no reference to Gatwick Express.

How, if I am on a legitimate route, can I have known that I cannot use GX and, if I am correct, how can I prove that I can use the service in the future?

Thanks

The ticket is valid on Gatwick Express. The 'HS1' restriction on the ticket refers to the route.

 

[maniacmartin]

Natonal Rail Enquiries says that London to Rye (Sussex) is permitted via Gatwick.
Gatwick Express is not HS1. Your ticket was valid on Gatwick Express, without any doubt in my mind.

I would complain to Southern/Gatwick Express customer services about this. If they reply correctly, you will have something in writing to show to gateline staff in future.

 

[jacksonbang]

Thanks. Much appreciated.

 

[Coolzac]

Without meaning to go off topic, does anyone else think that they need to just stop the confusing restrictions on Gatwick Express. Too often they stop people from using them when they are valid!

 

[matt_world2004]

I would claim delay repay if you were dekayed for over 30 minutes for reaching your destination because you were denied boarding by staff.

 

[jacksonbang]

To be honest, I wasn't really delayed - I just went to one of the regular Southern services. I was just really irritated with the abrupt, borderline rude attitude of the gateline member and the clearly disinterested nature of that member and the ticket office staff member.

Additionally, I was surprised that GX are still clinging to this attitude of a premium service as an excuse to turn away legitimate ticket holders, as well as using another route restriction to refuse access to their service.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Doing a full Routeing Guide check:

Victoria is a member of the London routeing group.
Rye (Sussex) has Ashford International and Hastings Group (Hastings and St Leonards Warrior Square) as routeing points.

To determine "appropriate" routeing points for the destination, we compare the NFM64 fare from the routeing point to the origin to that for the origin to the destination. (I'm not entirely sure why it's specifically that way round, but that's been the instruction since the first edition of the Routeing Guide, so...)

In NFM64, the Cheap Day Single (CDS) from London to Rye was £14.80 and the Standard Day Single (SDS) was £16.70.

Relevant fares from both Hastings and St Leonards were £14.80/£16.70, making Hastings Group an appropriate Routeing Point, and those from Ashford (Kent) were £12.30/£13.90, making it an appropriate Routeing Point as well.

Permitted routes between London and Hastings Group can be found on maps FV+HC, HS+CW, LB, RA+CW, SV, TN, VA, VH and VR.

Of these combinations, the relevant one is Map LB which offers London - Croydon - Gatwick - Burgess Hill - Lewes (direct or via Brighton) - Eastbourne - Hastings and then the shortest route onwards to Rye.

tl;dr Perfectly valid on the non-stop services between Victoria and Gatwick Airport which are currently operated (though I use the term loosely) by Govia Thameslink Railway under their Gatwick Express brand.

 

[100andthirty]

The only time I have had trouble with a ticket which was absolutely known to be valid (hand written free ticket for my wife and daughter before LU adopted the boxes) was at Victoria. Whilst I understand that there are loads of different varieties of ticket around, it is the attitude that "if I don't recognise it, it must be invalid" that I find unacceptable. This is down to training and attitude.

 

[paul1609]

Can i ask what time this occured?
The reason is that Super Off Peak returns from Marshlink stations is a bit of a nightmare.
Basically Marshlink stations are run by Southern but have 3 different routes on tickets to london:
a) Plus high Speed
b) Not high Speed
c) Haywards Heath
a and b are priced by Southeastern and take their Super Off Peak Restriction F4 this allows you to return on any train and also allows break of journey
c is priced by Southern and take their restriction PDR which prohibit departure from London Terminals between 16.15 and 19.15 M to F and also break of journey outside London.
So from Eastbourne You can use a Super Off peak Return from Doleham Route Not Hs1 start short and return in the evening peak via Haywards Heath but not if its route Haywards Heath.
In all fairness the regular Rye ticket man understands the issues but has prehaps difficulty explaining it to passengers.
East of Eastbourne you have not a hope in hell of finding a Southern employee that understands that Marshlink Stations run by Southern have Southeastern ticket rules, I think!

 

[jacksonbang]

Hello,

I was at Victoria at 13.15pm. It astounds me that there was no-one I could ask that could give me the correct answer. There seemed nowhere to go, it was worthless going to someone else on the gate and only one ticket office open.

 

[bb21]

Lodge a complaint with GTR Southern, although try put this behind you once you've done that. If it gets anywhere then great, if not, don't spend too much effort chasing. Your time is more valuable.

To put it in perspective, the 1315 gets you into Gatwick at 1348. The 1317 Littlehampton Southern service also gets you in at 1348, and if you missed that one, the 1320 Brighton Southern service gets in at 1351, and I doubt that you would have been refused travel on those, so had you just switched your plans, you would have hardly lost out.

But that response from GTR staff did give me some good laughs. That company is a joke in more than one way.

 

[AlterEgo]

Another cracking read. One of the best yet. How staff manage to make these things up is utterly beyond me.

You should certainly complain.

 

[yorkie]

To put it in perspective, the 1315 gets you into Gatwick at 1348. The 1317 Littlehampton Southern service also gets you in at 1348, and if you missed that one, the 1320 Brighton Southern service gets in at 1351, and I doubt that you would have been refused travel on those, so had you just switched your plans, you would have hardly lost out..

But it's the principle. Also, the slower 1315 is the only train, out of the 3 you mention, to be advertised on the departure board summary screens as for Gatwick Airport. They removed Gatwick's entry under the 'next fastest train to' section, so only the slower non-stop trains are shown now. Any passenger asking for the next train to the airport is not particularly likely to be given an honest answer, as you know very well from your own experiences!

The message from GTR is very clear: they want people to take the trains branded "Express", which are usually booked to be slower, and they want people to pay what they call a "premium fare" for it.

A ticket marked "Not HS1" is not considered to be a premium fare by the staff at Victoria platforms 13/14. I doubt they're acting against Angie Doll & co's instructions though. It's not just one or two rogue staff, it's the entire culture.

 

[jacksonbang]

Lodge a complaint with GTR Southern, although try put this behind you once you've done that. If it gets anywhere then great, if not, don't spend too much effort chasing. Your time is more valuable.

To put it in perspective, the 1315 gets you into Gatwick at 1348. The 1317 Littlehampton Southern service also gets you in at 1348, and if you missed that one, the 1320 Brighton Southern service gets in at 1351, and I doubt that you would have been refused travel on those, so had you just switched your plans, you would have hardly lost out.

But that response from GTR staff did give me some good laughs. That company is a joke in more than one way.

I promise you I am not upset. I know there are plenty of trains to Gatwick and not ultimately worth concerning myself with. I think it was just the barefaced lie of using the HS1 restriction to prevent my travel and, I've got to be honest, the staff gang mentality on the gate - I could tell another member of staff wanted to join in as soon as I said that GX trains are not high speed.

 

[bb21]

But it's the principle.

I suspect that to a normal customer, getting to the destination with minimum fuss and delay is far more important than the "principle", which is hardly worth much to the average customer.

With this many trains to choose from, as the OP said himself, it is hardly worth getting oneself worked up about it.

 

[jacksonbang]

A ticket marked "Not HS1" is not considered to be a premium fare by the staff at Victoria platforms 13/14. I doubt they're acting against Angie Doll & co's instructions though. It's not just one or two rogue staff, it's the entire culture.

Absolutely agree. I immediately got the feeling I would never find a member of staff that would agree with the truth.

 

[bb21]

I promise you I am not upset. I know there are plenty of trains to Gatwick and not ultimately worth concerning myself with. I think it was just the barefaced lie of using the HS1 restriction to prevent my travel and, I've got to be honest, the staff gang mentality on the gate - I could tell another member of staff wanted to join in as soon as I said that GX trains are not high speed.

You clearly haven't spoken to the GatEx gateline staff much.

They can give you some good laughs if you don't take them too seriously.

 

[jacksonbang]

You clearly haven't spoken to the GatEx gateline staff much.

They can give you some good laughs if you don't take them too seriously.

I did laugh - when the gateline told me GX was high speed service that only takes 30 minutes as if Gatwick was in another country or something!

 

[kdoganorak]

Without meaning to go off topic, does anyone else think that they need to just stop the confusing restrictions on Gatwick Express. Too often they stop people from using them when they are valid!

At least they should choose between simple fares and training staff properly in the complexity they have created. In the same way if they want penalty fares there should be higher standards for ticket purchasing facilities.. if you don't want too keep the machines working/offices open then no licence for PFs.

Seriously though I could not believe what I was reading from the OP. That is TWO members of staff ONE BEHIND A TICKET COUNTER just making stuff up about fare restrictions.

 

[sheff1]

How staff manage to make these things up is utterly beyond me.

Quite. With imaginations like this, these people should be writing fairy stories for a living.

 

[Starmill]

Gatwick Express is high-speed ?????? wow that's hilarious

 

[Richard_B]

The message from GTR is very clear: they want people to take the trains branded "Express", which are usually booked to be slower, and they want people to pay what they call a "premium fare" for it

The slower express train that's worse but premium, is an excellent comedy routine.

 

[infobleep]

I realise it's not worth losing sleep over but hypothetically speaking, what would have happened if one stood their ground and argued the point, totally politely of course and wouldn't go away?

What would staff do in such a situation? If your not being abusive they couldn't have you removed.

Like I said, it's not worth losing sleep over. It's not like the Gatwick Express branded trains offers much extra, unless you needed a plug socket of course.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[yorkie]

I realise it's not worth losing sleep over but hypothetically speaking, what would have happened if one stood their ground and argued the point, totally politely of course and wouldn't go away?

What would staff do in such a situation? If your not being abusive they couldn't have you removed.

Like I said, it's not worth losing sleep over. It's not like the Gatwick Express branded trains offers much extra, unless you needed a plug socket of course.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

1. They'd probably get angry.
2. You may think that... but they would get you removed. I've seen it happen. The police are going to take their side if it came to it.
3. They do use the same type of train, or equivalents, on their other routes too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suspect that to a normal customer, getting to the destination with minimum fuss and delay is far more important than the "principle", which is hardly worth much to the average customer.

Are we going to stand up for what's right and enable normal customers to have that experience of minimum fuss?

Or are we going to let customers be put off rail travel by allowing GTR to mistreat them?

Anyone who wishes to choose the latter is absolutely entitled to do so. No-one can be expected to fight for passenger rights. But some of us want to make a change, and I hope people can understand that.

 

[jacksonbang]

I realise it's not worth losing sleep over but hypothetically speaking, what would have happened if one stood their ground and argued the point, totally politely of course and wouldn't go away?

What would staff do in such a situation? If your not being abusive they couldn't have you removed.

Like I said, it's not worth losing sleep over. It's not like the Gatwick Express branded trains offers much extra, unless you needed a plug socket of course.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Additionally I wanted the benefit of a less crowded train.

I feel that if the train companies want to have a zero-tolerance on fare dodging, for example, then the customer should have a zero-tolerance on employee misinformation or lying.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...and the continue on it *was* disruptive to an extent. I approached the GX gate with the belief that it was a standard service I could use to Gatwick Airport. The gate refused the ticket, the gateline staff acted as if I was crazy to think I could use this service, they lied and would not listen to reason, I am now in the way of other customers wanting to access the service and have to turn back and walk through a very busy London station to another, far busier service - standing room to East Croydon. One with no luggage racks to speak of - so I am taking up extra seating or blocking doors with my huge suitcase.

Had I argued my case, and BTP were called - I'm pretty sure all it would lead to is a humiliation.

 

[bb21]

Are we going to stand up for what's right and enable normal customers to have that experience of minimum fuss?

Or are we going to let customers be put off rail travel by allowing GTR to mistreat them?

Anyone who wishes to choose the latter is absolutely entitled to do so. No-one can be expected to fight for passenger rights. But some of us want to make a change, and I hope people can understand that.

The world is never going to be perfect. It's called "picking your fights". Recognising when something is a lost cause and admitting defeat is a valuable trait. There is no support for these Gat Ex issues, not from anyone who can really make a difference, so I am doubtful what you hope to achieve will ever be possible.

Fighting over something like this when there are far more worthy cases to spend the effort on is totally pointless, and completely missing the point imo.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To clarify further, encouraging people to stand their ground and argue, potentially causing them to miss perfectly reasonable alternatives and incur bigger delays, is not what I consider good advice.

Perspective is what is needed. If there are no alternatives or if the alternatives take 20 minutes longer, then fair enough. In cases like the OP's, it's plain silly to argue for the sake of "principles".

 

[kieron]

Additionally I wanted the benefit of a less crowded train.

I feel that if the train companies want to have a zero-tolerance on fare dodging, for example, then the customer should have a zero-tolerance on employee misinformation or lying.

If you feel upset about it, write or send an e-mail to Gatwick Express (or whoever it says on the uniforms of the staff you had difficulties with) about this.

You can reasonably ask for confirmation of which longer distance tickets are valid on Gatwick Express, and particularly for something to show staff to confirm that "not valid on HS1" tickets which are valid between London Victoria and Gatwick are valid on that line

You could also ask for confirmation that Victoria staff have received refresher training on this, to save others from this problem.

Finally, you can also ask for compensation for being wrongly denied the use of your choice of train.

If they don't get back to you with a reasonable response, or don't respond in 20 business days, I'd send a copy to London Travelwatch.

It's not a "fight"; it's just a couple of e-mails.

 

[jacksonbang]

Thank you. I already did e-mail GX.

I don't remember saying anything about a fight. I've always been told that trains not valid on GX actually stipulate "NOT GATWICK EXPRESS" (taking into consideration any specific time restrictions). One member of staff that equates HS1 in any way to GX would be forgivable - a training issue, I feel it was more an attempt to keep non-premium ticket customers out and, for me, it was a rudeness issue.

 

[yorkie]

There are ongoing training & rudeness issues at the Victoria platform 13/14 gateline. Many people are affected by it.

I strongly believe it's an concern that we shouldn't accept. People can disagree with me if they want but I won't be changing my mind.