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GBRf Class 99 - 30 locomotives now ordered

Peter Sarf

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yes it is a camera and it also has "forward" facing ones for coupling in the window above the Stadler logo on the front
Aesthetically the forward facing camera for coupling would have been better placed lower in the black area where the Stadler logo is.

My after market reversing camera on the car is a lot less intrusive - replaces a black screw head on the number plate !. Different image quality though.
 
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hwl

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Aesthetically the forward facing camera for coupling would have been better placed lower in the black area where the Stadler logo is.

My after market reversing camera on the car is a lot less intrusive - replaces a black screw head on the number plate !. Different image quality though.
there are multiple forward facing cameras, one for coupling (angled down) and the general forward facing one. The higher they are the easier they are to keep clean.
 

Doomotron

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No TVM, no special pantographs (OLE wire height is a long way up in the tunnel)
The pantograph height can be adjusted on existing pantographs. The two 319s that went into the tunnel had the modifications done.
 

themiller

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No TVM, no special pantographs (OLE wire height is a long way up in the tunnel)
Class 92s seem to cope with the tunnel wire height. I think that they just have different limits set in the software for each railway (UK, France, and Eurotunnel).
As for TVM430, didn’t I hear that Eurotunnel were intending to change to ERTM (or should that be ETCS?) at some point?
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/stand...ry/2013-Strategic-direction-CR-HS-ENE-TSI.pdf B1.2 states 'All rolling stock required to operate on the GB AC 25kV 50Hz sub- system that has not been upgraded in accordance with the HS-CR ENE TSI, the following requirement shall apply:
Pantographs shall have a working range of 2100 mm. When mounted on an Electric unit, the pantograph shall operate between 4140 mm (the lower operating position, ref. EN50206-1, 3.2.13) and 6240 mm (the upper operating position, ref. EN50206-1, 3.2.13) above rail level.'
That's one hell of a difference!
At C1.11 of the same document it goes on to say: 'The contact wire height on Eurotunnel infrastructure in the Channel Tunnel varies between 6 020 mm and 5 920 mm.'
By my calculation that means that UK contact wire height can be higher than the Eurotunnel system wire height.
Edited for the reference
 
Last edited:

D365

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Class 92s seem to cope with the tunnel wire height. I think that they just have different limits set in the software for each railway (UK, France, and Eurotunnel).
As for TVM430, didn’t I hear that Eurotunnel were intending to change to ERTM (or should that be ETCS?) at some point?
Other than the Eurotunnel shuttle services, there wouldn’t be any upshot if HS1 [and the corresponding LGV] are not converted to ETCS at the same time.
 

themiller

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Other than the Eurotunnel shuttle services, there wouldn’t be any upshot if HS1 [and the corresponding LGV] are not converted to ETCS at the same time.
That’s correct but you have to start somewhere. The two national systems don’t have to be completed at the same time but digital signalling is an aspiration for both countries and is being progressed on the national networks.
 

zwk500

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Class 92s seem to cope with the tunnel wire height. I think that they just have different limits set in the software for each railway (UK, France, and Eurotunnel).
As for TVM430, didn’t I hear that Eurotunnel were intending to change to ERTM (or should that be ETCS?) at some point?
http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/stand...ry/2013-Strategic-direction-CR-HS-ENE-TSI.pdf B1.2 states 'All rolling stock required to operate on the GB AC 25kV 50Hz sub- system that has not been upgraded in accordance with the HS-CR ENE TSI, the following requirement shall apply:
Pantographs shall have a working range of 2100 mm. When mounted on an Electric unit, the pantograph shall operate between 4140 mm (the lower operating position, ref. EN50206-1, 3.2.13) and 6240 mm (the upper operating position, ref. EN50206-1, 3.2.13) above rail level.'
That's one hell of a difference!
At C1.11 of the same document it goes on to say: 'The contact wire height on Eurotunnel infrastructure in the Channel Tunnel varies between 6 020 mm and 5 920 mm.'
By my calculation that means that UK contact wire height can be higher than the Eurotunnel system wire height.
Edited for the reference
That’s correct but you have to start somewhere. The two national systems don’t have to be completed at the same time but digital signalling is an aspiration for both countries and is being progressed on the national networks.
There is a plan for the tunnel to convert to ETCS but it's not happening soon. LGV Nord to Lile or Calais is programmed to be converted first, then Belgian HSL-1 and then the Tunnel + HS1 will go at the same time. HS1 goes last because it has the latest section to open, phase 2 in 2007.
 

Spartacus

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there are multiple forward facing cameras, one for coupling (angled down) and the general forward facing one. The higher they are the easier they are to keep clean.

The latter one you CERTAINLY want to have well above head height.
 

Nottingham59

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Stadler have published a case study on the Class 99, which I have not seen before. No doubt it's mentioned upthread.

Data that was new (for me at least)
  • Continuous tractive effort is 430kN, compared to 500kN starting.
  • Electric power (6.17MW) is measured at the rail rim. Pretty impressive.
  • They don't say where the diesel engine power (1.79MW) is measured, but presumably it is engine rating, rather than at the rail.
 

Rail Quest

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Stadler have published a case study on the Class 99, which I have not seen before. No doubt it's mentioned upthread.
https://stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/lc99_beacon0924_en.pdf
Thanks for sharing - this really is an interesting read. Another thing I found quite intriguing is that the fuel tank has a capacity of 3,000L, which is actually smaller than the tank capacity of the class 93s (3,200L) according to the 93 case study that you shared on that loco's thread.

  • Electric power (6.17MW) is measured at the rail rim. Pretty impressive.
  • They don't say where the diesel engine power (1.79MW) is measured, but presumably it is engine rating, rather than at the rail.
Yes that is amazing (on paper)! According to Wikipedia (can't find original source), Class 66 at rail power is 1.85MW, meaning the 99s should theoretically be more than three times powerful on the overheads. Would be really interested to know what the at rail diesel power rating is. At 1.79MW at engine, it'll have roughly 75% of the engine power of a 66 (again, according to Wikipedia, this is 2.4MW for the sheds), but if the locomotives are more efficient in putting down the power, my hopes for the 99s keeping up with sheds on the majority of freight flows are quite high.
 

HJ10001

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As there will only be 30 locomotives, will they replace the class 66's or will they be working alongside them?
 

Trainman40083

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As there will only be 30 locomotives, will they replace the class 66's or will they be working alongside them?
I recall there is an option for more. I would suspect they would be used on flows where almost the entire journey could be done with electric power, but the final mile or terminal is not wired. Many flows will be mainly diesel power, and I'd expect them to stay diesel hauled.
 

HJ10001

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I don't think they would be suitable for routes with step gradients, for example, the sections of the Bootle Docks Branch, between the docks, under the Leeds & Liverpool Canal to Bootle Junction. Then the section between Bootle Junction, Atlantic Junction, (Closed) Spellow Station and (Closed) Walton & Anfield Station.
 

Richard Scott

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I don't think they would be suitable for routes with step gradients, for example, the sections of the Bootle Docks Branch, between the docks, under the Leeds & Liverpool Canal to Bootle Junction. Then the section between Bootle Junction, Atlantic Junction, (Closed) Spellow Station and (Closed) Walton & Anfield Station.
Why not, 1.79MW diesel rating is not a small amount of power and with 3 phase drive is highly likely to have more power at rail than a 47 and will be more sure footed?
 

Trainman40083

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I don't think they would be suitable for routes with step gradients, for example, the sections of the Bootle Docks Branch, between the docks, under the Leeds & Liverpool Canal to Bootle Junction. Then the section between Bootle Junction, Atlantic Junction, (Closed) Spellow Station and (Closed) Walton & Anfield Station.
I could see them on such as Felixstowe containers though
 

43096

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I don't think they would be suitable for routes with step gradients, for example, the sections of the Bootle Docks Branch, between the docks, under the Leeds & Liverpool Canal to Bootle Junction. Then the section between Bootle Junction, Atlantic Junction, (Closed) Spellow Station and (Closed) Walton & Anfield Station.
Shifting things out of there is a largely a function of tractive effort rather than horsepower. As a Class 60 offers 474kN starting tractive effort and the Class 99 has 500kN and is also AC drive, then I'd be surprised if they weren't capable.
 

Bald Rick

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I don't think they would be suitable for routes with step gradients, for example, the sections of the Bootle Docks Branch, between the docks, under the Leeds & Liverpool Canal to Bootle Junction. Then the section between Bootle Junction, Atlantic Junction, (Closed) Spellow Station and (Closed) Walton & Anfield Station.

Yes they will be suitable for steep gradients. With that tractive effort they will pull anything - perhaps not quickly, but that won’t matter on sections like the Liverpool docks.

The pachyderm in the pantry is - where is the power in the OLE coming from?
 

Nottingham59

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The pachyderm in the pantry is - where is the power in the OLE coming from?
At least they've got a diesel engine they can use if the voltage drops too low.

I'm sure there's scope to have a smart adaptive system on many electrified routes where bimode traction (freight or passenger) could be programmed to compare the sensed voltage with criteria modelled for each location and switch to diesel warm up mode or diesel running as necessary.

But I would be surprised if any such programme is in place or planned, even for places like the WCML where we know there are limitations in the power supply.
 
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At least they've got a diesel engine they can use if the voltage drops too low.

I'm sure there's scope to have a smart adaptive system on many electrified routes where bimode traction (freight or passenger) could be programmed to compare the sensed voltage with criteria modelled for each location and switch to diesel warm up mode or diesel running as necessary.

But I would be surprised if any such programme is in place or planned, even for places like the WCML where we know there are limitations in the power supply.
This is probably harder than it sounds, because I doubt the limitations on supply will mostly be on the available continuous current (although they could be thermal limits on transformers), rather more likely a risk of short-term voltage dips if two trains draw maximum power at the same time. With old electromechanical stock this was not a great issue, because one tripped out and then was re-set by the driver a few seconds later. This used to happen routinely when two 507/508 were booked to leave Capenhurst at the same time - a new substation was required for the 777s. With modern stock, all to often they don't like even very short voltage dips and take much longer to reset / reboot.
It is unlikely that the diesel could be brought online quickly enough to help with these short voltage dips - or if it was kept run up and ready it would use a lot of fuel and produce a lot of emissions for rather little benefit (diesel engines are also not very happy run at full speed but no load for extended periods).

What should help a lot more is battery capacity. It would make a lot of sense to have traction batteries on stock configured to help in both directions: to deliver the short term peak current on starting (so the train causes less voltage dip) and to use the battery to ensure the train does not trip out / crash when there is a dip in the voltage, so that a wider tolerance is possible on the supply. Both work best when all the trains are fitted with batteries of course, which is some way off.
 

Trainbike46

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The pachyderm in the pantry is - where is the power in the OLE coming from?
Just possibly we need to start upgrading some more power supplies - not just for these, but also for new passenger stock.

At least they've got a diesel engine they can use if the voltage drops too low.

I'm sure there's scope to have a smart adaptive system on many electrified routes where bimode traction (freight or passenger) could be programmed to compare the sensed voltage with criteria modelled for each location and switch to diesel warm up mode or diesel running as necessary.

But I would be surprised if any such programme is in place or planned, even for places like the WCML where we know there are limitations in the power supply.
You know, that feels like a lot of effort to burn more diesel - better to just upgrade the power supply
 

Peter Sarf

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At least they've got a diesel engine they can use if the voltage drops too low.

I'm sure there's scope to have a smart adaptive system on many electrified routes where bimode traction (freight or passenger) could be programmed to compare the sensed voltage with criteria modelled for each location and switch to diesel warm up mode or diesel running as necessary.

But I would be surprised if any such programme is in place or planned, even for places like the WCML where we know there are limitations in the power supply.
From my understanding of the power supplies that need upgrading - it is the desire is to keep demand below a certain level so that gradual overheating of the line-side equipment does not happen. I wonder if this means the demand has to drop BEFORE the voltage drops ?. In which case a different way of detecting too much demand over time might be needed.

For instance more electric passenger trains than average can run for an hour or two from/to Liverpool BUT then the system has to be left to recover for longer periods in between. So in peak travelling times an extra service can be managed London to/from Liverpool but not all day. Not sure how each individual locomotive could work that out.
 

Nottingham59

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In which case a different way of detecting too much demand over time might be needed.
It needs some system that detects when a feeder station or a transformer starts to get hot, and transmits that data to trains in the vicinity that have the flexibility to switch to diesel or delay recharging their batteries. The alternative is manage demand by limiting the number of electric paths in the timetable. Which is what they do now.
 

Peter Sarf

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It needs some system that detects when a feeder station or a transformer starts to get hot, and transmits that data to trains in the vicinity that have the flexibility to switch to diesel or delay recharging their batteries. The alternative is manage demand by limiting the number of electric paths in the timetable. Which is what they do now.
Yes. They let things start to overheat BUT only for so long. I is currently managed by demand (timetabling) rather than looking at the effect.
 

Nottingham59

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Yes. They let things start to overheat BUT only for so long. I is currently managed by demand (timetabling) rather than looking at the effect.
Reminds me of that old science story:
On one occasion committee members were asked by the chairman, who was also in charge of the project, to agree that a certain machine be run at a power which was ten percent lower than the design value. [Franz Eugen] Simon objected, arguing that “design value” should mean what it said. Thereupon the chairman remarked, “Professor Simon, don’t you see that we are not talking about science, but about engineering, which is an art.” Simon was persistent: “What would happen if the machine were run at full power?” “It might get too hot.” “But, Mr. Chairman,” came Simon’s rejoinder, “Can’t artists use thermometers?”
 

HJ10001

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As far as I know know, when it comes to what trains the 99's will be used on, on the candidates is the Caledonian Sleeper.

At the present moment, the train is hauled by 92's from Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh, then 73/9's take over for the remainder of the journey to Inverness. The 99's can take the train the entire route, without needing to switch locomotives.
 

Trainbike46

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As far as I know know, when it comes to what trains the 99's will be used on, on the candidates is the Caledonian Sleeper.

At the present moment, the train is hauled by 92's from Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh, then 73/9's take over for the remainder of the journey to Inverness. The 99's can take the train the entire route, without needing to switch locomotives.
This has been covered in detail and is highly unlikely. For starters, the maximum speed of the 99s is too low (75mph), the 99s don't have ETH capability to provide the coaches with electricity, and you wouldn't even save the time spent at Edinburgh because the train splits into three segments there. The 99s would be much better placed on (heavy) freight trains
 

12LDA28C

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As far as I know know, when it comes to what trains the 99's will be used on, on the candidates is the Caledonian Sleeper.

At the present moment, the train is hauled by 92's from Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh, then 73/9's take over for the remainder of the journey to Inverness. The 99's can take the train the entire route, without needing to switch locomotives.

This theory has been debunked several times in this thread already, for the reasons given in post #388.
 

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