GEML franchise 2016

[TheEdge]

What about the WA/Stannex FLIRT?

Oh yea, although it seems like there might be a chance the Stansted and Norwich FLIRTs might be a common pool.

All we can say is Liverpool Street will be the FLIRTiest station in London

 

[samuelmorris]

Indeed. NXEA were a shower of the proverbial by all accounts.

And yet c2c just over the way are a very good operator.

Agreed, although the timetable debacle suggests that perhaps not everybody over there knows what they're doing. C2C are riding on the success of rolling stock investment started by Prism and infrastructure work also outside their remit. I nonetheless think their customer service appears pretty good, but they do occasionally make blunders (FWIW I don't think the metro-interior units is one of them).

I'm still no fan of bi-modes as it wastes huge amounts of energy and gives an excuse to delay/postpone/cancel electrification schemes.

I take the point, but honestly I think having regular DMUs would make the situation even worse. Why introduce electrification when you have brand new stock that doesn't need it, you have to then find an alternative home for? If anything, this seems like an ideal time to introduce bi-modes - cover it by making it part of a much larger rolling stock order allowing them to become common with the rest of the fleet, as well as operate services that cover long wired and long unwired distances in the same diagram (i.e. London-Lowestoft). It's the obvious choice for the route.

Sometimes versatility necessitates wasting energy - look at all the wasted energy from those heavy transformers being dragged around on 375/6s and 387/2s...

I actually stopped traveling by train for a while because of NXEA, the service was so bad.]

since I didn't live in the area from 2006-2011 I missed most of the latter NXEA tenure, I started commuting to London in November 2011 at the end of their franchise. I did utilise off-peak London-bound services to get home from school in the 'One' era which was usually a 360 service so I had relatively few complaints, but as I didn't enter London and wasn't using the service during the peak it's hard to say how good/bad things were.

 

[F Great Eastern]

To be honest when I stopped using them the only really good thing about them was the 360s and that wasn't down to them either because they inherited them and at one point tried to get rid of them in exchange for more 321s to save on leasing costs.

 

[J-2739]

I still can't get my head around the order for articulated trains. For some reason though, I can't see more being ordered.

 

[swt_passenger]

And in fairness, if that's "all" AGA is getting, they haven't said what they're going to get rid of yet.

Doesn't the normal meaning of the phrase 'complete replacement of the current fleet' (as reported) mean they get rid of everything?

 

[HH]

700s are generally doing fine for what is a new build unit rather than one built on something else that already existed.

Tell that to the passengers using them, who're regularly being de-trained en route.

 

[BuryBlue]

Doesn't the normal meaning of the phrase 'compete replacement of the current fleet' (as reported) mean they get rid of everything?

Yes but if they're caught short (as speculated here) then they will just keep a few units knocking around while the situation is remedied. I don't mean a whole fleet.

Regarding the 321s, if the ROSCOs think such a situation is likely in the medium term then couldn't they just store them until needed? I don't think the situation is that black and white.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Tell that to the passengers using them, who're regularly being de-trained en route.

Alternatively we could not bother trying to improve anything and just order the same stock all over again? It's a bathtub curve and nothing like the issues that were experienced with the Alstom stock in the late 90s and early 2000s

 

[SPADTrap]

Oh yea, although it seems like there might be a chance the Stansted and Norwich FLIRTs might be a common pool.

All we can say is Liverpool Street will be the FLIRTiest station in London

Was just checking I hadn't missed something haha.

See you under the lights of the boards

 

[Wolfie]

having been on a lot of Stadler trains throughout Europe, I can tell you that the FLIRT is not a proper intercity train, it's an average commuter train and short distance regional unit and Stadler don't really have any great experience in building intercity trains of the standards of what else was on offer.

It's a very cheap option for an Intercity train, if you can even call it that and will represent a downgrade on what is already there in my belief. The fact they are going to use the same train on regional services as Intercity tells you all you need to know.

They really cut the corners here and when the carriages arrive the people of East Anglia will never forgive them for it, it's a terrible low budget choice, I can see the merits of ordering it for rural services, but a flagship intercity? Come on.

Be best for everyone they canceled the airport trains (complete waste of money) and used that money to actually order a proper intercity train and retain the 379s which are plenty good enough. But they won't, since they crave the headline grabbing full fleet replacement, even if that means we have to suffer third rate trains on the flagship service.

My bold

I'm sorry to offend your regional sensibilities but London-Norwich "a flagship intercity" service? You are having a laugh, it is not and never has been. It is no more that than is Southampton or Portsmouth to London and it will have rolling stock to at least the same standard (given that details of the interiors have not been released) as those services.....

Again, I refer to LEO Express, 3 hours, 100mph (FLIRTs are capable of 200kmph so 120mph) and a good 200m. They clearly can do Intercity work. They are used in Germany doing distances comparable to the GEML. Its not like they are being planned for use on London to Scotland, the GEML isn't really that long, its only 115 miles with a 100mph speed. It doesn't need something like a 390.

Honestly I don't think the Norwich passengers will give a toss. They will get brand proven stock that will be better outfitted than the Mk3s and hopefully and damn sight more reliable than the Mk3 sets.

I completely agree.

I imagine things will be different for LM bidders. They have a very modern fleet currently and they'll be additional 170s, 172s, 323s, 350s and 360s available for bidders to propose using. I imagine to win that franchise now you'll need a good idea for refurbishing 350s to a high standard.

I think it isn't just that DfT are looking at all new stock but also they are looking at reducing costs through common sense logistic savings (ie TOCs having fewer train types).

It would be unsurprising to see the LM replacement franchise go down to three train types, namely 350, 323 and 170.

The small number of 172s could be swapped out for more 170s and the remaining 150s replaced by 170s.....

I actually think there's beginning to be signs of there being some longer term planning here.

When we've had train builds, most have had options for additional stock. Much of these options have been taken.

Look at the 387s. Lots more built and perhaps when all the other 70xs are made, there will be another tag on order so the final GN trains become the same.

Their 387s will join with GWR, all the 365s will get together once more, other compatible trains will join up (maybe the 317s will survive, maybe not, but certainly the 319s and 321s) and so on.

I'd also like to see the older stock used as an affordable way to strengthen trains to cope with ever increasing demand, and maybe even some trains kept in warm storage to cope with future demands. Yes, crazy idea, bringing out some old stock from time to time if necessary.

In Stockholm they've re-intoduced some 1960s stock to cover for gaps with the new trains (not sure entirely why) but someone saw fit to store them rather than scrap them.

Some of these older 1980s trains are able to be worked in lots of places so as long as drivers can still sign them and until new signalling renders them unusable, we are in a great position this time around - compared to when we had new trains replacing slammers that are never coming back!

This, in rather more developed form, is sort of what I had in mind....

 

[LLivery]

It's strange that NX are seen as the company no-one particularly wants now when people were unhappy when NX lost MML to Stagecoach - a complimentary cup of tea obviously means a lot to British passengers!

Thats because MML was a good operator who transformed the timetable, doubled passenger number and introduced new trains twice! EMT now have stupidly high InterCity fares with nothing new to show for it and externally filthy HSTs. However, other NX franchises at the time: WAGN, one railway/NXEA, Silverlink, Central and Wessex weren't exactly good. NXEC topped it off. They're incredibly lucky to even have Thameside c2c

 

[Wolfie]

I have been on those trains. They are not proper Intercity trains.

You don't know the Norwich passengers very well then. Many used to refuse to even board any kind of EMUs.

The sheer thought of units replacing Intercity Stock years ago when a much better unit, the 444 was touted let to outcry. They will not accept downgrading of the service no matter what. I cannot see them being happy with this, my experience with the Flirt in Europe and I've actually been on the units you suggest, is that they are an excellent commuter or rural train. However their intercity configuration is not a proper intercity configuration and is more of a cheap intercity and high end commuter unit.

The fact is they were ordered because they were cheaper than what others proposed and that is because they are a half way house between a commuter and a proper intercity unit that was proposed by other bidders and rolling stock manufacturers.

Well they will be standing at Norwich station waiting a VERY long time for their next train then....

I had heard that AGA had the most whinging passengers. I am sorry but some of your posts rather prove that point.

In my previous posts I was outlining that the 170/360/379 fleet should stay and the money saved on replacing them be put into proper intercity rolling stock and you claimed that you should not have to suffer second rate rolling stock.

Since that all that will be left will be the 170/360/379 fleet and the new stock, I assume you are calling that stock second rate since there is nothing else left?

my bold

Firstly who says that any money will be saved by not replacing them. Perhaps by the ROSCO buying/the TOC leasing in quantity money might actually be saved.

Secondly your priority appears to be "proper intercity stock" and sod anyone who is not on that route. There are many other lines of similar importance and distance that don't have "proper intercity stock"

Many of them just have a pure hatred of EMU's, they even complained about the 444s that were proposed many years ago, the negativity in the local press was overwhelming in it's nature.

Unless these Intercity trains provide a proper buffet with proper catering (not a shop) with proper tables, proper first class and proper ambiance with end doors not 1/3 doors and proper noise isolation between the carriages, they are going to be restless.

My bold

I have reached the end of my patience with this incessent whinging - if they are restless frankly who cares!

 

[samuelmorris]

Honestly, you should read the c2c_rail twitter feed some time. I am ashamed to be part of their customer base sometimes. 4 minute delays prompt endless strings of profanity and quite a few people have resurrected the #miseryline hashtag in response to the overcrowding issues caused by the new timetable. Clearly none of these people experienced the route in the period before privatisation.

 

[northwichcat]

MThe small number of 172s could be swapped out for more 170s and the remaining 150s replaced by 170s.....

But then where do you send the more commuter like 172s? Without fully refurbishing fairly new trains it'll be easier to find suitable routes for 170s outside the LM franchise than 172s. Even if you say the routes Northern are proposing to use 150s on are suitable for 172s that would then another class of DMU for Northern when they will have 170s come 2018.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thats because MML was a good operator who transformed the timetable, doubled passenger number and introduced new trains twice! EMT now have stupidly high InterCity fares with nothing new to show for it and externally filthy HSTs. However, other NX franchises at the time: WAGN, one railway/NXEA, Silverlink, Central and Wessex weren't exactly good. NXEC topped it off. They're incredibly lucky to even have Thameside c2c

Central also introduced new trains and secured the MML 170s once MML got the 222s. They also introduced new through trains and worked with Silverlink to offer through trains between places on the Central franchise map and the Silverlink franchise map e.g. running Euston services from places in the Central area which Virgin stopped serving. Although, their reliability could have been improved and the 158s could have been given a bit more TLC.

 

[bramling]

Tell that to the passengers using them, who're regularly being de-trained en route.

(And who are suffering grossly uncomfortable seating with unacceptably sub-standard legroom.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But then where do you send the more commuter like 172s? Without fully refurbishing fairly new trains it'll be easier to find suitable routes for 170s outside the LM franchise than 172s. Even if you say the routes Northern are proposing to use 150s on are suitable for 172s that would then another class of DMU for Northern when they will have 170s come 2018.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Central also introduced new trains and secured the MML 170s once MML got the 222s. They also introduced new through trains and worked with Silverlink to offer through trains between places on the Central franchise map and the Silverlink franchise map e.g. running Euston services from places in the Central area which Virgin stopped serving. Although, their reliability could have been improved and the 158s could have been given a bit more TLC.

To be fair to National Express, their London group of franchises were reasonably well run. Silverlink Metro was perhaps the exception.

WAGN under Prism was poor - they had mass cancellations due to driver shortages, punctuality was hit and miss, and they didn't do much with the timetable so there was overcrowding and a tendency to put out 4-car trains wherever possible. National Express turned this round, and by the time FCC took over they inherited a very well run operation, performance was so good you could almost set your watch by the trains - not bad on the congested East Coast Main Line.

 

[Wolfie]

But then where do you send the more commuter like 172s? Without fully refurbishing fairly new trains it'll be easier to find suitable routes for 170s outside the LM franchise than 172s. Even if you say the routes Northern are proposing to use 150s on are suitable for 172s that would then another class of DMU for Northern when they will have 170s come 2018.

I don't, as you seem to at times, see everything through a Northern prism. As for the 172s I must admit to having Chiltern in mind....

 

[HH]

Alternatively we could not bother trying to improve anything and just order the same stock all over again? It's a bathtub curve and nothing like the issues that were experienced with the Alstom stock in the late 90s and early 2000s

I'm well aware of the bathtub curve, but there are issues around how deep and how long the dip is and that is related to the amount of testing done before introduction of the class and to each individual unit. But still, there's always a risk that the train is a dog, like the aforementioned Alstom stock. How the Class 700s compare is too early to say, but in any case isn't relevant to my point that new stock generally has teething problems. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done, but that it may take a fair time before EA passengers see improved performance.

 

[43096]

To my recollection, this is not only the first UK outing for anything Stadler

Yes, if you discount Croydon trams and Class 68s and 88s built since the start of the year.

 

[HH]

(And who are suffering grossly uncomfortable seating with unacceptably sub-standard legroom.)

Which is 100% down to DfT, as is the daft numbers of fixed 12-car trains. Hopefully with Abellio buying we won't see such nonsense.

 

[47421]

Anyone got any insights into what Network Rail will have to do so Abellio can deliver what has been announced?

If WestAnglia (excl StanExp) will mostly be 10 cars that is a lot of stations that need longer platforms, or will SDO be tolerated at all the Lea Valley stations?

What about other infrastructure? The DfT announcement says Harlow Town and Bishops Stortford will have 9 trains an hour off peak. Plus 3 Hertford East. Thats 12 trains each way Brox to Cheshunt at least. Is that realistic?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Central also introduced new trains and secured the MML 170s once MML got the 222s. They also introduced new through trains and worked with Silverlink to offer through trains between places on the Central franchise map and the Silverlink franchise map e.g. running Euston services from places in the Central area which Virgin stopped serving. Although, their reliability could have been improved and the 158s could have been given a bit more TLC.

Your history re the WCML services is somewhat off here. Central actually presided over the Northampton split of services which weren't split for years.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm well aware of the bathtub curve, but there are issues around how deep and how long the dip is and that is related to the amount of testing done before introduction of the class and to each individual unit. But still, there's always a risk that the train is a dog, like the aforementioned Alstom stock.

How the Class 700s compare is too early to say, but in any case isn't relevant to my point that new stock generally has teething problems. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done, but that it may take a fair time before EA passengers see improved performance.

The 360s when they were introduced has performance issues, and some of the complaints I heard about First ordering more dud stock after the infamous 180s at FGW, they should lose the franchise, yader yader. About 6 months after entering service they were by far the most reliable in the fleet and have won golden spanner awards since!

Of course there is a risk that the train will run like a dog, but looking at Siemens track record, that seems very unlikely, it's not like we're talking Jerrybuilt units from the likes of AnsaldoBreda. There's a lot of new technology on these new trains, with even more on the infrastructure in possibly the most chaotic route in the country for frequency.

That's my big fear with a whole load of new stock with GA as well, so they'd be wise to keep some other units and intercity stock on for a while until everything has settled down and I hope they have priced that into the bid. If they haven't then there is going to be fireworks in a few years time, that is for sure, the thought of bedding down so much new stock at once is quite daunting.

 

[CosherB]

The 360s when they were introduced has performance issues, and some of the complaints I heard about First ordering more dud stock after the infamous 180s at FGW, they should lose the franchise, yader yader. About 6 months after entering service they were by far the most reliable in the fleet and have won golden spanner awards since!

Of course there is a risk that the train will run like a dog, but looking at Siemens track record, that seems very unlikely, it's not like we're talking Jerrybuilt units from the likes of AnsaldoBreda. There's a lot of new technology on these new trains, with even more on the infrastructure in possibly the most chaotic route in the country for frequency.

That's my big fear with a whole load of new stock with GA as well, so they'd be wise to keep some other units and intercity stock on for a while until everything has settled down and I hope they have priced that into the bid. If they haven't then there is going to be fireworks in a few years time, that is for sure, the thought of bedding down so much new stock at once is quite daunting.

Have you finished yet? :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So I presume you would have loved for First to have won the franchise, ordered a load more Hitachi trains and the orders to have gone to the Italian plant? I will "get real" when the next Hitachi order goes to NA and not the Italian plant!

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2663187&postcount=2898

I'm sure you'll agree that this is good news?

 

[HH]

That's my big fear with a whole load of new stock with GA as well, so they'd be wise to keep some other units and intercity stock on for a while until everything has settled down and I hope they have priced that into the bid.

It appears GoVia sailed closer to the wind on GTR and Abellio's record on Rolling Stock isn't snow-white either. This is the problem of DfT bid evaluation - not enough emphasis is put on risk mitigation.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It appears GoVia sailed closer to the wind on GTR and Abellio's record on Rolling Stock isn't snow-white either. This is the problem of DfT bid evaluation - not enough emphasis is put on risk mitigation.

I have my doubts about Abellio's plans for the new franchise, but if it does work out it will be really great for the region. It's one of those things that is going to be an amazing success or a complete disaster I'd say. I really hope it works out, but I just can't see them delivering everything they say they will.

I just think a staggered approach would have been better, say that one of the fleets does have serious problems even for a relatively short period of time Abellio are going to have to hire in stock to cover it and that would put pressure on the finances of the bid. The problem is by boxing yourself into two types of stock, one of which is unproven in the UK, you could create yourself a problem further down the line.

As I said before, I'd have kept the 360s/379s on got the new stock settled down and then have gone for replacing them, I just think that there is too much risk in this bid and if it all goes wrong it could be spectacular, essentially saying It's ambitious and if delivered as well as they say it will be fantastic, but they are taking some risks to get there.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't, as you seem to at times, see everything through a Northern prism. As for the 172s I must admit to having Chiltern in mind....

The 172s were ordered as class 150 replacement on commuter services, so suggesting they would be suitable to replace 150s on Northern routes is hardly seeing everything through a Northern prism. I did also say they would be suitable for other longer routes if they are refurbished to be less commuter like, but whats the sense in doing that and putting 170s already suitable for longer routes on the LM commuter routes. :roll:

Are you saying Chiltern need 35 extra 2 and 3 car DMUs? If not your logic of the LM 172s going to Chiltern for consistent fleets falls apart a bit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your history re the WCML services is somewhat off here. Central actually presided over the Northampton split of services which weren't split for years.

I admit I'm not aware of everything prior to the 350s arriving but I am aware that when the 350s arrived they started running Crewe to Euston services via the Trent Valley jointly with Silverlink with a daily Liverpool service which included a call at Hartford.

 

[Wolfie]

The 172s were ordered as class 150 replacement on commuter services, so suggesting they would be suitable to replace 150s on Northern routes is hardly seeing everything through a Northern prism. I did also say they would be suitable for other longer routes if they are refurbished to be less commuter like, but whats the sense in doing that and putting 170s already suitable for longer routes on the LM commuter routes. :roll:

Are you saying Chiltern need 35 extra 2 and 3 car DMUs? If not your logic of the LM 172s going to Chiltern for consistent fleets falls apart a bit.

I know Chiltern would like more stock but perhaps not that much more.... you make a fair point in that respect. My logic in making the suggestion was fleet simplification - if LM retains 172s it would be sensible for the other 12 to go their way (even if the gangway difference causes complications) with Chiltern getting more 170s as a replacement/addition. My experience of LMs 170s and 172s suggests very little difference in the interior fit, what somthing is ordered for and how it is specified are sometimes different things....

I admit I'm not aware of everything prior to the 350s arriving but I am aware that when the 350s arrived they started running Crewe to Euston services via the Trent Valley jointly with Silverlink with a daily Liverpool service which included a call at Hartford.

They did indeed. They also stopped an existing Silverlink through service from London to Birmingham and replaced it with a connecting service involving train change at Northampton...

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair this was the DfT's doing during upgrade work. I believe it was always intended to reinstate through running.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Dave1987]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2663187&postcount=2898

I'm sure you'll agree that this is good news?

Yes that is excellent news. But I'm very pleased to know that this huge fleet for the new franchise will be designed and built in the UK.

 

[jon0844]

I have my doubts about Abellio's plans for the new franchise, but if it does work out it will be really great for the region. It's one of those things that is going to be an amazing success or a complete disaster I'd say. I really hope it works out, but I just can't see them delivering everything they say they will.

I just think a staggered approach would have been better, say that one of the fleets does have serious problems even for a relatively short period of time Abellio are going to have to hire in stock to cover it and that would put pressure on the finances of the bid. The problem is by boxing yourself into two types of stock, one of which is unproven in the UK, you could create yourself a problem further down the line.

As I said before, I'd have kept the 360s/379s on got the new stock settled down and then have gone for replacing them, I just think that there is too much risk in this bid and if it all goes wrong it could be spectacular, essentially saying It's ambitious and if delivered as well as they say it will be fantastic, but they are taking some risks to get there.

Surely they'll be introduced gradually, like one train a week or whatever and following lots of testing?

They can't all be delivered in one batch!