GEML franchise 2016

[jayiscupid]

So the intercity sets are going to be 2x6 car emus, well I can see that going down like a lead balloon!

Will be two 6 car articulated sets without driving cabs in the middle (as someone above mentioned it is similar to the Eurostar arrangement). To a regular passenger it looks like a long 12 coach single train.
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I thought Ford said they were going to be based on a bi-mode design sold to Italy recently which makes them Flirt3 rather than EC250. These trains seem to be the standard flirt configuration of having a power pack in the centre and doesnt resolve the corridor width question.

It looks like the Intercity sets are based on the EC250 and the regional bimode sets are based on the European Flirt 3 as being built for Italy.

 

[Class 170101]

317 and 321 transfer from Great Northern I'm fairly pleased about - there's clearly still pressing need for additional rolling stock so it's good to see they've taken that opportunity. One does wonder why they aren't taking all of them - presumably there is only room for so many units in the existing stabling facilities, but 18 extra units is certainly welcome - I wonder whether, given considerably more 317s than 321s, if there will be an increase in the number of 317s used on the GE side as a result of this? I wasn't aware of the capacity crisis at WA being particularly severe.

Not sure how I feel about the Renatus project still going ahead - in theory yes great, days like today prove how much less unpleasant summer commuting would be if some of the 321s were air conditioned, but on the other hand, the project already seems heavily delayed, and there is questionable need for it beyond 2019 if the 379s and 360s are also going off-lease, having recently refurbished units sitting idle would be very wasteful indeed...

I don't think there is much room anywhere for extra units currently. Lots of units displaced from Ilford due to Crossrail works there.

I guess that in the short term most of those extra units will be cover for 321's going off to Doncaster for refurb. Then hopefully to increase capacity from May 2017.

I'll be delighted if the Clacton branch gets 317s. As it's once of the few places under the wires in East Anglia that's not seen them in regular service and it will provide me with a bit more variety before we're a one stock line in 2020.

317s not cleared for passenger service to Clacton. I would say its more likely to look like the HLOS service plan that applied from December 2012 with 317s between Stowmarket / Harwich and London if they run on the GE at all.

 

[Panupreset]

I reckon most of the 317's will bolster the West Anglia side of things and the 321's will do GE work.

 

[dk1]

Would only be Ilford & ex-Anglia drivers at Liverpool St that sign 317s on GEML side of things.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It looks like the Intercity sets are based on the EC250 and the regional bimode sets are based on the European Flirt 3 as being built for Italy.

The EMUs are called "Flirt UK" so don't sound like EC250s which are high speed units (250km/h for services via the new Gotthard tunnel).
https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...-834c-442e-b77d-9fce46f413c4/ec250_sbb_en.pdf

The DEMU Flirts for Italy have the intermediate diesel power pack and are quoted as being 130km/h max on diesel (80mph).
http://www.net-italia.com/en/selezione-progetti/bimodal-trans-valdaosta/
It doesn't look as though you can move through the train from end to end.

 

[Dave1987]

Will be two 6 car articulated sets without driving cabs in the middle (as someone above mentioned it is similar to the Eurostar arrangement). To a regular passenger it looks like a long 12 coach single train.

Right so I've got completely the wrong end of the stick there! Fair enough.

 

[MisterT]

The EMUs are called "Flirt UK" so don't sound like EC250s which are high speed units (250km/h for services via the new Gotthard tunnel).
https://wwwstadlerrailcom-live-01e9...-834c-442e-b77d-9fce46f413c4/ec250_sbb_en.pdf

The DEMU Flirts for Italy have the intermediate diesel power pack and are quoted as being 130km/h max on diesel (80mph).
http://www.net-italia.com/en/selezione-progetti/bimodal-trans-valdaosta/
It doesn't look as though you can move through the train from end to end.

The EC250 is based on the FLIRT design and basically an upgraded FLIRT.
The powerpacks are usually a 87 mph/140 kmh design, and passengers are able to walk trough the powerpack:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/helogat/5994018806 (not my picture, this is the GTW powerpack).

 

[TheEdge]

Will be two 6 car articulated sets without driving cabs in the middle (as someone above mentioned it is similar to the Eurostar arrangement). To a regular passenger it looks like a long 12 coach single train.

My immediate question is why? What is the point of having 6 car units that need to run in pairs as opposed to single 12 car units?

 

[Class 170101]

ex-Anglia drivers at Liverpool St that sign 317s on GEML side of things.

Really?

 

[MrPIC]

Really really.

 

[swt_passenger]

My immediate question is why? What is the point of having 6 car units that need to run in pairs as opposed to single 12 car units?

Roger Ford's article says it is something to do with crashworthiness, and (so far as I understand his article) cars 6 and 7 both have powered bogies at the ends.

So maybe it is something to do with the couplings between cars 6 and 7 just being different, i.e. non-articulating. OTOH, perhaps it also allows for the half trains being splittable in the depot - it might not be practicable to fully maintain 12 car trains in the existing depot buildings.

 

[306024]

Really really.

When did Liverpool Street drivers last regularly work 317s on the GEML?

Seem to recall a few years back someone tried an unorthodox method of extending one of the depot roads at Crown Point to take a 12 car.

 

[Z12XE]

Didn't Colchester Link 1 (Mixed traction) sign the 317s at the end of NXEA?

1Y03 from Ipswich (0629) and back was a 317/7 this is currently a Colchester job

 

[306024]

Yes the Peterborough link were taught 317s as part of the DfT HLOS programme. Those workings lasted about 8 weeks when the wind changed direction and Abellio didn't lease the 317/7s.

 

[NotATrainspott]

My immediate question is why? What is the point of having 6 car units that need to run in pairs as opposed to single 12 car units?

I don't think you understand what's going on. Multiple units don't necessarily need to have a driving cab at both ends if they're always combined together in service in the right order. The best modern example is the new Eurostar Class 374 sets, which look like one 400m long train but are actually made up of two 200m single-ended trains with their own TOPS number. This is convenient for the manufacturer as it's not necessary to extend all the internal train systems along the entire length, with the two half-sets talking to each other in the same way as how two 200m standard EMUs with cabs at either end would talk to each other.

For articulated sets like the Stadler design there's even more of a reason to have the splits, as it is a pain dividing the train up for maintenance. I don't think the maintenance details have been released but it seems likely that Stadler will be responsible for building or upgrading a depot to maintain all of its units together in one place. Instead of needing to build everything to be 240m long just for the InterCity sets, they can build some of the more expensive things (e.g. whole-train lifting jacks) to be only 120m long which is less absurd for the remainder of the fleet which will be 3 and 4 car sets.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I don't think you understand what's going on. Multiple units don't necessarily need to have a driving cab at both ends if they're always combined together in service in the right order.

So just to clarify, will these sets have two driving cabs for each 6-car unit or just one?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Pendolinos are also two half-trains back to back.
Partly this is to achieve redundancy in systems for greater reliability.
The original trains were 4+4, but now they are 4+5 and 4+7.

 

[asylumxl]

So just to clarify, will these sets have two driving cabs for each 6-car unit or just one?

One. That's what I understand from the information currently available.

 

[Clarence Yard]

If the Stadler intercity units are exactly as what they offered to another bidder they will be effectively two half sets semi permanently coupled back to back with different interiors in each half.

Each of the halves will have a cab at one end and electrical cubicles at the other end and you will be able to walk through from one half set to the other.

In the smaller bi mode sets, again if the offer is the same as what another bidder received, the short intermediate diesel engine car is also able to be walked through.

 

[Wivenswold]

Just number crunching here. The new fleet gives an increase of 8 trains and loads of extra carriages for the Regional area

But it doesn't seem like much of an increase on Great Eastern and West Anglia. Currently 764 cars including Stansted Express in the EMU fleet of 191 units. Replaced by 785.

Okay some of those will be the longer coaches in the 10 car Bombardiers but some of those will also have to support the Norwich service as 10 Stadlers into 15 IC formations with an increased headway doesn't go.

Can't help but think that some off peaks will be cut from 8 to 5 cars.

It just doesn't seem like the huge extra capacity increase that it seemed at first.

 

[asylumxl]

Just number crunching here. The new fleet gives an increase of 8 trains and loads of extra carriages for the Regional area

But it doesn't seem like much of an increase on Great Eastern and West Anglia. Currently 764 cars including Stansted Express in the EMU fleet of 191 units. Replaced by 785.

Okay some of those will be the longer coaches in the 10 car Bombardiers but some of those will also have to support the Norwich service as 10 Stadlers into 15 IC formations with an increased headway doesn't go.

Can't help but think that some off peaks will be cut from 8 to 5 cars.

It just doesn't seem like the huge extra capacity increase that it seemed at first.

Does this account for Crossrail?

 

[plcd1]

Just number crunching here. The new fleet gives an increase of 8 trains and loads of extra carriages for the Regional area

But it doesn't seem like much of an increase on Great Eastern and West Anglia. Currently 764 cars including Stansted Express in the EMU fleet of 191 units. Replaced by 785.

Okay some of those will be the longer coaches in the 10 car Bombardiers but some of those will also have to support the Norwich service as 10 Stadlers into 15 IC formations with an increased headway doesn't go.

Can't help but think that some off peaks will be cut from 8 to 5 cars.

It just doesn't seem like the huge extra capacity increase that it seemed at first.

I'm undoubtedly a long way behind others in looking at the train service requirements but I looked at the "delta" on West Anglia for TSR2. There's not a lot of change there and, barring STAR, next to no frequency improvement. Obviously track capacity is an issue but it sort of undermines all the hype about this "wondrous" new franchise (well it did for me, anyway).

 

[jopsuk]

West Anglia needs CR2 with four-track through to Broxbourne and level crossings closed.

And someone to work out how to solve a problem like Clapton

 

[43074]

I'm undoubtedly a long way behind others in looking at the train service requirements but I looked at the "delta" on West Anglia for TSR2. There's not a lot of change there and, barring STAR, next to no frequency improvement. Obviously track capacity is an issue but it sort of undermines all the hype about this "wondrous" new franchise (well it did for me, anyway).

Weren't there elements of the Abellio bid which were over & above the TSR though? e.g. the hourly Peterborough to Colchester, the fast services to Bishop's Stortford & Cambridge etc. There will probably be an updated version to reflect Abellio's bid in due course.

 

[Wivenswold]

Does this account for Crossrail?

No, that's excluding TfL units.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm undoubtedly a long way behind others in looking at the train service requirements but I looked at the "delta" on West Anglia for TSR2. There's not a lot of change there and, barring STAR, next to no frequency improvement. Obviously track capacity is an issue but it sort of undermines all the hype about this "wondrous" new franchise (well it did for me, anyway).

The West Anglia Main Line is full. The only way to squeeze extra trains in on the existing infrastructure is to either slow down the Stansted Express (as happens in the peak now) or take out stops from the slower trains. Neither is popular.

That's why linespeed improvements, as proposed by all and sundry, are pointless - getting the trains to go faster just means they catch up the slower services earlier in their journey.

The only way to get more and/or faster services (reliably) without slowing others down is to build more tracks.

 

[HH]

The West Anglia Main Line is full. The only way to squeeze extra trains in on the existing infrastructure is to either slow down the Stansted Express (as happens in the peak now) or take out stops from the slower trains. Neither is popular.

That's why linespeed improvements, as proposed by all and sundry, are pointless - getting the trains to go faster just means they catch up the slower services earlier in their journey.

The only way to get more and/or faster services (reliably) without slowing others down is to build more tracks.

Exactly. Personally I think more semi-fasts and less all-stoppers would be a better compromise though.

 

[AM9]

Exactly. Personally I think more semi-fasts and less all-stoppers would be a better compromise though.

Which is similar to the GEML meaning that "Norwich in 90" will continue to be a gimmick with a token example each way per day.

 

[HH]

Which is similar to the GEML meaning that "Norwich in 90" will continue to be a gimmick with a token example each way per day.

With the additional problem of the freight trains on that line, which these days are too long to use any of the passing spots.

Infrastructure upgrades are needed before you can sort the timetables out properly.

 

[MrPIC]

The whole dordle out of Liv St, via Hackney Downs, Clapton and Coppermill Junction wastes loads of time on West Anglia, and as stated, even if the stars and level crossings align the stansteds will still end up right up the jacksy of the Hertford/Cambridge/Stratford. Hell, even the really really early Stansteds (0340/0410 etc) still take pretty much the same amount of time as during the day even with no other trains about!