General Unit "Argument"

[5872]

377s are outersurburban but some* have been known to do metro services as you so kindly put it! (tom l) Now what is this disscusion about Im very confused 455s are Surburban/Outer Surburban if you want to qestion that


Fred8)

 

[thefab444]

455s are definately Inner Suburban.

377s are Inner/Outer Suburban - the early /1s and /3s are Outer, whereas the later /1s and the /4s are Inner. Though, of course, they can really appear on any workings, except the /3s are usually used for Brighton expresses.

 

[RJ]

377s are booked for a number of metro workings, they turn up on the majority of London Bridge - Caterham and Victoria services during weekdays.

 

[Tom]

Southern wise;

455s are "inner suburban"
319s are "outer suburban"
377s are "metro/suburban/express"

SWT:

455s are "inner suburban metro"
450s are "outer suburban/express"
444s are "express/intercity"

 

[Gizmogle]

I know not one soul who likes 222s

I like 222s. Very much thankyou.

 

[paul1609]

The 377 design is metro based - due the high acceleration and braking performance.

Whatever its design the reason a 377 can out perform a 444 is that it has a power to weight ratio thats 25% higher. The 444s were specified so they wouldnt overtax the weak electrification on the Bournemouth Branch but it means they are real slugs this is reflected in the fact that Portsmouth Line services are getting on for 15 minutes slower than they were with Cig/Bep Greyhounds.

 

[Tom]

No it wasn't Paul.

The 444s are running on lower power themselves due to software modifications brought in as a result of more miles being performed per day by the units. The Bournemouth line has exactly the same power (if not more) as the Portsmouth Line as far as Wareham. From Wareham, the pigs used to accelerate in "series" until about 20mph when parallel could kick in to the linespeed of 85mph. However, SWT don't consider this safe anymore due to random idiotic reason so lowered the max power throughput entirely. It could be done via the GPS without too much effort to enhance tractive effort between Wareham and London. Although the onboard MITRAC (or whatever Desiros use) are aware of the voltage through the third rail so there is no reason why it can't do it that way.... :roll:

It is to note that a 444 has exactly the same power as a 450 as well - meaning 450s accelerate faster than a 444, which was part of the reason that 450s went onto the Portsmouth line. Get your facts right.

 

[paul1609]

Well, a lot of 377 units I go on stink of crisps/BO/general foulness and are sticky, due to the aircon being broken.

The woman's voice is better on the 377s, but she doesn't give much info, apart from if you need to please note, if you want to alight at this station, you must do so from the front 3 coaches, as this station as a short platform, please ensure you are travelling in the correct part of the train. Please mind the gap between the platform, and the train. The man was a lot better on the Desiros, the woman is admittedly terrible. I hear she's invading Southern 455s as well now. Again, I agree that the "Passengers wishing to leave the trayan heeya, please move forward to the front part of the trayan." is useless, but then the guard will have announced that several times before anyway.

As for reliability, depends what sort of Electrostar we're talking about, the 357s won the Golden Spanner, but I'm talking about 377s, as this are the ones I go on most.

Anyway, I haven't even mentioned the ridiculous change in seating formations and patterns in every other carriage on 377s yet.

Err I dont think so;
377 leaving Hilsea;
"The next station will be Bedhampton, Would customers please note that you cannot alight from the rear 3 coaches of this train as this station has a short platform. This is coach 6 of 8"

444 leaving Hilsea;
"This is the Southwest trains service to Lon-don Wat-er-loo via Gui-ldf-ord, the next station wil be Bed-ham-pton.
You must have a valid ticket to travel on our trains if you do not show a ticket you will......Bing bong this is the Guard speaking the next station is Bedhampton you can only get out of the Guards door of this 10 car train at this station this is situated in coach 2.... have to pay a penalty fare of £20.This is Bedhampton move for-ward move for-ward to alight here."
I give 444s the vote for amusement as panicky commuters try to carry their bikes through the train but its not funny when they pull the emergency door release and the train is delayed by 10 mins.

I think the mix of 2+2 and 2+3 in the 377/4s is a good idea, its better than enduring a 450 3 +2 all the way to the coast. The 1st class seats in some of the 450s are the same as the standard ones in 377/3s!

 

[The 158 Man]

I like 222s. Very much thankyou.

Me too. I would certainly choose one over a 180 anyday! :razz:

 

[Techniquest]

Crazy...Each to their own I guess though!

 

[devon_metro]

I've never found a problem with a 180. They are more comfortable and spacious that the FGW HST depresses and they seemed like perfectly good intercity trains. Certainly far better than the Voyagers!

 

[Techniquest]

hock: what sort of Vomiters do you travel on?

220s, 221s...

Well, you did ask...

I still don't see how anyone can say 222s don't vibrate, because they damn well do! I've lost a good amount of coffee to the tables on 222s...How did that happen I hear you say...Well my cup was refilled by the extremely nice FC host just before Beeston. In with the sugar and milk then...On departure from Beeston the 222 vibrated wildly, shaking the cup all over the place...

That's just one instance though.

The seats, well whilst they might be relatively larger than those on Voyagers the legroom is not superior enough for my liking. Indeed, I had a rather sore back from sitting in the seats (FC and SC) on 222s on previous bashes on them...Same for 222101 when I did that earlier this year, the seats were dreadfully uncomfortable (boy was I glad to alight at Hull...), legroom was not sufficient and, of course, they shook wildly. Proof enough for me that these units are no better than the MML variety.

As for 170s being the poor relation to the 222 in terms of passenger comfort et al for a Hull - London journey, well fair dos I guess. Never had any of the Hull Trains 170s on the ECML so I can't comment there.

 

[TheSlash]

Get your facts right.

Gets yours right you mean!!!

You start in shunt, notch 1. This puts all the resistance into the circuit and lets you start away upto between 10 and 15mph {varies between units}. Full resistance remains in during shunt.
Next up, you goto Notch 2, Series. You accelerate through 8 steps of series using the current limit relay {CLR from here on}. This brings you upto around 35mph. At full series, you have no resistance in the circuit
Now you change the motor configuration for Parrallel. Instead of having 4 motors in series, you now get 2 lots of 2 motors in series, giving you series parrallel. This reduces torque to allow for a higher speed with less energy. To do this you open the series parrallel contactor
You then put all the resistance back into the circuit and work through the 8 steps of series parrallel {known as parrallel}, again controlled by the CLR. By now you should be reaching 45 - 50mph. At full parrallel, you have no resistance left in the circuit
Now you move into weak field, notch 4. You once again put all the resistance back into the circuit and the series parrallel contactor remains open. Now you close the weak field contactor, to divert around half the magnetic field of the motors, reducing torque even more. You then work through the resistance bank for the final time, switching out all resistance until about 65mph when you are in full weak field and it's down to the condition of the motors to bring you upto the full speed of 90mph
Greyhound units have an additional step, not referenced on the driver's power controller, known as field divert. These are addittional contactors to divert even more of the magnetic field to allow higher speeds.
Originally Greyhound units had a higher rate of acceleration by retaining higher ampage for longer during clr sequencing, but i believe a mod late in the life of the units reduce them to the same acceleration performance levels as a non greyhounded unit, but they still retained the capability of reaching 100mph {minimum }
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In case you are wondering, selecting notch 4 from a stand just lets the unit change up when the CLR dictates {like an automatic gear box}. Hand notching is rumored to provide quicker acceleration aswell as being more energy efficent

 

[Tom]

Remember the Desiro's don't have notches so it's far more complicated than just that Steve.... sadly hand notching is no longer taught....

 

[TheSlash]

Paul,

You compare units based on public timetables, which are well known to include 'recovery' time.
You also need to take account the increased dwell time due to the door type. When slam door EMU's were first introduced, they were allowed 30 seconds for a station stop. It can take easily 30 seconds to open and close the doors of a Desiro, before passengers get on and off
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BTW in answer to the original thing, i like 222's alot

 

[class 313]

Remember the Desiro's don't have notches so it's far more complicated than just that Steve.... sadly hand notching is no longer taught....

Maybe not on SWT but im sure 'one' and FCC still do....

 

[Tom]

Desiro's don't have notches in the sense of the word.

Far more than just your normal 4 or 5.

 

[westcoaster]

Desiro's don't have notches in the sense of the word.

Far more than just your normal 4 or 5.

350's do they have step 1, 2, 3, 4, and max there are no steps in braking though.

 

[class 313]

350's do they have step 1, 2, 3, 4, and max there are no steps in braking though.

Indeed that is quite true. So yes they do have notches Tom

 

[Tom]

I was informed that the DC Desiro's had about 12 notches or something like that with 6 main ones with half steps - essentially notchless.

 

[class 313]

I was informed that the DC Desiro's had about 12 notches or something like that with 6 main ones with half steps - essentially notchless.

Still notches, compared to the 37 which actually is notchless...

 

[37402]

And on FC, 375s/377s it is completely rubbish, ...

That's because it wasn't supposed to be First Class. Connex (as was) wanted to create a high class train throughout to remove the need for FC - Chiltern did the same. Commuters who had paid for FC season tickets objected so a few headrests were put on the seats making it First Class.

 

[class 313]

377/2s have seats that should be used as FC but they are SC at both ends of the 377..

 

[paul1609]

No it wasn't Paul.

The 444s are running on lower power themselves due to software modifications brought in as a result of more miles being performed per day by the units. The Bournemouth line has exactly the same power (if not more) as the Portsmouth Line as far as Wareham. From Wareham, the pigs used to accelerate in "series" until about 20mph when parallel could kick in to the linespeed of 85mph. However, SWT don't consider this safe anymore due to random idiotic reason so lowered the max power throughput entirely. It could be done via the GPS without too much effort to enhance tractive effort between Wareham and London. Although the onboard MITRAC (or whatever Desiros use) are aware of the voltage through the third rail so there is no reason why it can't do it that way.... :roll:

It is to note that a 444 has exactly the same power as a 450 as well - meaning 450s accelerate faster than a 444, which was part of the reason that 450s went onto the Portsmouth line. Get your facts right.

To be honest Tom I think its you who needs to get your facts right, in fact it would be refreshing if you refrained from stateing your own personal opinion as fact.

The Portsmouth No.1 Electrification was a standard southern railway electrification scheme, it used 600 volts dc fed from closely spaced substations fed by a 33kV ac feeder along the route. The line voltage was subsequently upgraded to 750 vdc. It was completed in 1937 and was by modern standards over specified.

Forty years later British Railways was struggling to justify the Bournemouth Electrification. Initially it had been hoped to electrify the whole route through to Weymouth but it was found that there was insufficent traffic so it was cut back to Bournemouth with the TCs and 33/1s provided for Weymouth. In further economies most of the stock was rebuilt from steam stock and for the electrification the line voltage was raised to 800 volts to enable the substations to be placed further apart.

In another 20 years things were even tighter for the Weymouth Electrification to Weymouth where the power supply beyond Wareham was provided with only sufficent power for the service anticipated and some stretches of line were singled.

All the Desiros run on reduced power as in addition to the problems beyond Wareham, the electrification cannot support full power on a 12 car 450. When running in 12 & 8 cars formation the 377s software reduces power to avoid overloading the supply system. The electrification schemes to east Grinstead and Hastings have similar restrictions to Weymouth and 12 cars are banned.